Star Wars: The Force Awakens

[archmagi1]

Starkiller was also the codename of the now irrlevant force unleashed games protagonist, and vaders secret apprentice.

[Marc Radle]

An excellent and very thorough review and commentary of the movie from folks I really trust.

Note, as you can see below, this is FILLED with spoilers!

Star Wars: The Force Awakens Spoilers Review

[Kalshane]

I thought the movie was good, but not great. I actually liked the new trio, though they could stand to be fleshed out more (especially Poe).

I did find it incredibly predictable despite zealously avoiding spoilers. It didn't help that the

Spoiler:

plot was basically a re-hash of A New Hope. While Rey turning out to be the Force user rather than Finn was a surprise, once it was established I knew she'd end up with the lightsaber and was fully waiting for it to fly to her when Kylo Ren was trying to Force Pull it out of the snow. (Though it was still a cool moment.)

I also found the Starkiller weapon ridiculous and the destruction of "The Republic" and its fleet being as simple as taking out a single star system was absurd.

As for Rey beating Ren, as others have pointed out, he got shot in the torso after killing his father (which, again, I saw coming the instant the latter agreed to head to the base) and was bleeding all over the place. Plus Finn, with no Force power or training, was able to wound him during their fight and I don't see anyone complaining about that.

So a strong Force user (albeit untrained) being able to defeat a severely wounded and mentally unstable Dark Side user doesn't seem anymore unbelievable to me than a different young untrained Force user with no fighter pilot experience being able to bullseye the Death Star's thermal exhaust port.

[Orthos]

Absolutely, positively, AMAZINGLY LOVED IT. Really nothing else to add.

Spoiler:

Add me to the list of people who thought we didn't get enough of Phasma, guessing Rey is probably Luke's daughter, and predicted Han getting shanked (the instant they revealed Kylo's identity I was thinking "Yeah Han's dead").

Quote:

B) The scene where the smartest storm troopers ever walked down the hall, heard the tantrum... and went the other way.

Yes! One of the best scenes in the movie. Just one of many that had me laughing my head off.

[Marc Radle]

Now that opening weekend is behind us, how did The Force Awakens do?

J.J. Abrams' Star Wars: The Force Awakens shattered numerous box-office records over the weekend, grossing $238 million in North America — the biggest opening of all time, not accounting for inflation — for a global launch of $517 million. Some rival distributors even have Force Awakens grossing closer to $245 million domestically; final weekend numbers will be released Monday.

‘Star Wars: The Force Awakens’ Shatters Box Office Records

Box Office: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' Opens to Record $238M for Cosmic $517M Global Launch

'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' has biggest box office opening ever

Disney’s Bet on Lucasfilm on Track To Pay Off With Record ‘Star Wars’

Box Office: ‘Star Wars: The Force Awakens’ Shreds Records With $238 Million Debut

[Krensky]

Spoiler:

Rumor has it that the Trooper who got mind tricked was Daniel Craig.

[Orthos]

Krensky wrote:

Spoiler:

Rumor has it that the Trooper who got mind tricked was Daniel Craig.

This is accurate.

[archmagi1]

Opinions from around the office:

#1: Hated it. Plot was so horrible that all the good things couldn't pull it to the positive.

#2: Enjoyed it. Acknowledged super weak plot that was little more than the OT mashed together. 7.5.

[Orthos]

Wow. That's the exact opposite of my experiences. Everyone not on Paizo that I've talked to about it absolutely, positively loved it, and only had the most minor quibbles.

This thread is the only place at all that I've seen negative opinions more than "these small things could have been done better".

[Marc Radle]

Orthos wrote:

Wow. That's the exact opposite of my experiences. Everyone not on Paizo that I've talked to about it absolutely, positively loved it, and only had the most minor quibbles.

This thread is the only place at all that I've seen negative opinions more than "these small things could have been done better".

That's my experience as well. Everyone I've actually spoken to or heard talking about the movie has LOVED it. For some really odd reason, it's only been here in this thread that a few folks seem to be saying how much they didn't like it ...

[archmagi1]

Heh, since I'm in the minority, I'll post a bit more. The plot problems are best described as a quote from a seven-eight year old boy as he's talking to his friend behind me as we're leaving.

Spoiler:

"So, if Kylo Ren was so big about traitors, wouldn't killing his own father be considered the biggest traitor? He should be hating himself, not the Resistance." -Observant Kid

Yes we could go into deep philosophical discussions about the hypocrisy of the dark side and the struggle of the shades of gray between the light and the dark, but, at least in my opinion, that's not the film JJ made. From the first five minutes, Finn's actions clearly define the absolute morals of the universe. JJ didn't give us a 'Sith level exposition on the evil is in the eye of the beholder that Palpatine brought Anakin low with. Finn = good, Kylo Ren = evil, and the story cements that. The kid, who doesn't understand nuance in film at this stage in his life, saw the thin coating of hypocrisy as just that.

As I discussed it this morning with #1 and #2 up there, I guess our biggest complaint is that so little felt new and fresh. Yes, the prequel trilogy suffered from a burnt out Lucas at the helm, but most of the plot, if poorly executed, felt like something new. TFA, for me at least, felt like the same old song, different tune. A good song, mind you, but I was hoping it would turn out to be something more than what it ended up being.

My hopes are for Rogue One, though. Being devoid of the main cast, being able to peal away from the legacy expectations that the OT shackled TFA with, it has the potential to be better than a 7. I have faith in the Disney MCU based model, as the majority of the Marvel movies have been pretty good. TFA wasn't a bad movie, and was a pretty solid start to the franchise we're about to have near annually for life. It just wasn't a hole in one.

[Imbicatus]

On Kylo Ren's "hypocrisy":

Spoiler:

Kylo Ren sees himself as a different person than Ben Solo. (I loved that they named him Ben.) Killing Han wasn't a betrayal in his mind, but the final step in completing his transformation.

Likewise, he sees Darth Vader as a different person than Anakin Skywalker. He is following Darth Vader, who was finally seduced and killed by Anakin Skywalker. Darth Vader is who he is trying to emulate, not Anakin Skywalker.

[Kryzbyn]

Is it just me or...

Spoiler:

Snoke looked a bit tore up. Scars and gouges out of his head and ears. The way he reacted to Luke's name...I wonder if they've had a dust up or two, Snoke and Luke, and Snoke didn't fare well for the exchange...
it seemed his fear of Skywalker was more than a general fear of him resurrecting the Jedi.

[Terquem]

Question-a-rama:

If the Falcon can "sneak up" on Starkiller, by using light speed up until the last minute, why not nuke starkiller with dozens of light speed enabled missiles?

[Orthos]

Terquem wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Because there needs to be someone able to pull the missile out of lightspeed at the exact right moment, otherwise it just zips past Starkiller while in LS and misses the point. I'm pretty sure you can't automate that. Which, of course, would require willing kamikaze pilots.

[BigDTBone]

Orthos wrote:

Terquem wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Han Solo wrote:

Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

That would seem to contradict your reply.

[Lorewalker]

As for Rey, I like to answer why she was so capable this way... She didn't try, she did.

[Freehold DM]

BigDTBone wrote:

Orthos wrote:

Terquem wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Han Solo wrote:

Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

That would seem to contradict your reply.

how? Calculations were made.

[Chris Lambertz]

Added a few more spoiler tags.

For those wondering how long the spoiler tags should be used: let's give folks until 1/1 to go see it for themselves, OK?

[DM Beckett]

It was ok.

Spoiler:

I liked the first half, but the assumption that just anyone can pick up and lightsaber and become a jedi master I guess, Kylo Ren's power, (and thus threat level) being so inconsistent, an incredibly weak "death" scene, it was a major disappointment by the end.

The fact that, in many ways, even above and beyond nostalgia, it is a retelling of the original Star Wars (Ep 4) made it very predictable, and moreso than any other movie in the series, it really, really suffered from being a set up to further movies.

Spoiler:

I started off really liking Rey. But about half way into the movie, I think the way she was written, (not the actor or even acting, but the character direction), was most directly responsible for my dislike. She overshadowed basically everyone else, from knowing the MF better than even Han did (we are home), to beating the BBEG/Miniboss at his own game without the years of experience and training, to taking out half of the ships trying to capture them, while piloting, and without even being on a gun. She is very close to bordering on mary sue.

There is also a ton of things that are just really odd. Like, no one can follow a very clear droid-ball track in the desert? No one can identify the map that looks to be about the size of a galaxy? Or, you know, turn off a certain character and hack into it's memory to find the other information? So, there is a Republic, seemingly strong, but there is also a Resistance, and also a First Order/Empire? Huh? Just how many factions are there, how are they different, and why is this important? How exactly did some characters, (decorated war heroes, at that), become believed to be a myth to most people? And if that's as true as we are told it is multiple times, no one blinks an eye when the,. . . one of the "R" factions spends decades trying to follow their trail?

All in all, I'd rate it above Phantom, but not by much, and below all the others, (by a lot).

[BigDTBone]

Freehold DM wrote:

BigDTBone wrote:

Orthos wrote:

Terquem wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Han Solo wrote:

Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

That would seem to contradict your reply.

how? Calculations were made.

Spoiler:

Orthos said the missiles would fly right through unless someone slowed the ship. The quote from the original would suggest that colliding with a physical object while in hyperspace would cause some heartache. So, it would seem that using hyperspace missiles would have been a fine way to blow the base up.

[Orthos]

I forgot about that quote from the original, and by extension that part of how hyperspace rules work in SW. It's been a long time since I watched them.

[Marc Radle]

I absolutely respect the few in this thread who didn't love the movie, but it definitely seems that this opinion is *very* much in the minority.

Rottentomatoes is rating Star Wars The force Awakens at

95% Positive/Fresh
Average Rating: 8.3/10
Reviews Counted: 282
Fresh: 267
Rotten: 15

With an AUDIENCE SCORE of:

92% liked it
Average Rating: 4.5/5
User Ratings: 139,947

Those are some pretty huge positives!!!!

[CBDunkerson]

BigDTBone wrote:

That would seem to contradict your reply.

It would also seem to contradict what they actually DID in the scene in question, neh?

[DM Beckett]

Marc Radle wrote:

I absolutely respect the few in this thread who didn't love the movie, but it definitely seems that this opinion is *very* much in the minority.

Are we trying to have an honest discussion or win a popularity contest?

:P

[BigNorseWolf]

Terqem: Because they couldn't program them with less self preservation instinct than the guy that did that :)

[Imbicatus]

DM Beckett wrote:

It was ok.

Spoiler:

I liked the first half, but the assumption that just anyone can pick up and lightsaber and become a jedi master I guess, Kylo Ren's power, (and thus threat level) being so inconsistent, an incredibly weak "death" scene, it was a major disappointment by the end.

There is also a ton of things that are just really odd. Like, no one can follow a very clear droid-ball track in the desert? No one can identify the map that looks to be about the size of a galaxy?

Spoiler:

Kylo Ren took a Bowcaster slug to the chest and had to pound the blood out of his lung several times. 90% of his power was going into keeping himself up and fighting. That's why Rey was able to beat him. He still solidly put down Finn. So much so that he was still in a coma after the battle at Starkiller base. Speaking of Finn, he was using the lightsaber, but I don't know that he is even force sensitive. He certainly isn't a Jedi Master. Not only did he get put into a coma by Ren, he also got beaten by a stormtrooper with an electrostaff.

Rey has a little bit of Mary Sueism going on, but really, so did Luke and Anakin.

[Freehold DM]

BigDTBone wrote:

Freehold DM wrote:

BigDTBone wrote:

Orthos wrote:

Terquem wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Han Solo wrote:

Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?

That would seem to contradict your reply.

how? Calculations were made.

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

stars and supernova are not planets. Iirc, gravity wells generators that make vehicles seems like stars are what can knock you put of hyperspace

[Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti]

I saw it, didnt like it for the reasons listed above.

[Terquem]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Terqem: Because they couldn't program them with less self preservation instinct than the guy that did that :)

See, this is why we can't have droid pilots. We made them realize that things we want them to do might hurt them.

[archmagi1]

Found another guy at work.

#3: I told angie after we left it's a good 6 or 7.

The average 8.3 from the Rt copypasta above doesn't seem too far off base. From my office, 75% fresh, average good rating is a 7.

[DM Beckett]

Imbicatus wrote:

DM Beckett wrote:

It was ok.

** spoiler omitted **

There is also a ton of things that are just really odd. Like, no one can follow a very clear droid-ball track in the desert? No one can identify the map that looks to be about the size of a galaxy?

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

I'm pretty sure he was hit in the side, and he kept beating himself to get more Dark Side boosts, not to keep himself up. That is, the more pain he felt, the stronger he was. But that also really undermines his level of threat, to me at least, making him seem more buffoonish. He comes off as a stooge after his introduction scene.

[BigDTBone]

CBDunkerson wrote:

BigDTBone wrote:

That would seem to contradict your reply.

It would also seem to contradict what they actually DID in the scene in question, neh?

I'm not here to defend plot holes inside of plot holes. But just as two wrongs don't make a right, two plot holes don't make a sound story.

[Marc Radle]

Another good review / commentary of the movie

Star Wars The Force Awakens FULL SPOILERS Review

[magnuskn]

DM Beckett wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

DM Beckett wrote:

It was ok.

** spoiler omitted **

There is also a ton of things that are just really odd. Like, no one can follow a very clear droid-ball track in the desert? No one can identify the map that looks to be about the size of a galaxy?

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Yeah, I really dislike the character, too. He seems more like a petulant child in permanent rage mode than a real threat. His colleagues didn't seem too impressed either with his constant failures and anger attacks, but had to defer to the huge douchenozzle because he was inflicted upon them by their supreme leader.

Which doesn't mean that he doesn't have power, but I am pretty sure that even Darth Vader would have gone "Oy vey, what a douche..." with a double facepalm.

[Imbicatus]

DM Beckett wrote:

There is also a ton of things that are just really odd. Like, no one can follow a very clear droid-ball track in the desert?

I doubt it would be there an hour later. The desert on Jakku is very unforgiving.

Spoiler:

Rey told BB8 he would sink into the sand if he went one way, and we saw a Tie Fighter get engulfed. Between the wind and the shifting nature of the sand, the trail would be gone very quickly.

[archmagi1]

magnuskn wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Spoiler:

Hux's attitude toward Ren was very similar to Grand Moff Tarkin's toward Vader in ANH. Except Tarkin knew where to draw the line. Hux doesn't seem to care, and as the de facto face of the FO, likely ranks above Snoke's assassin. I would imagine the Moffs (or whatever the FO government leaders call themselves these days) indeed see Ren as Snoke's imposition on them. A good parallel, for me, is probably how the Jedi Council felt about Anakin after the Chancellor mandated Anakin onto the Council.

[Matthew Morris]

archmagi1 wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Hux's attitude toward Ren was very similar to Grand Moff Tarkin's toward Vader in ANH. Except Tarkin knew where to draw the line.

Bit of snippage.

I think one thing the Clone Wars did well was that Whineykin and Tarkin knew each other, respected each other and appreciated the others methods. I'd assume Vader carried that friendship(?) forward into ANH, and if anyone knew Vader = Whineykin it likely would be Tarkin who figured it out.

(aside, Clone wars does give us the headache of a non-whiney but still issue laden Anniken, then his personality seems to degrade in RotS as a result. *sigh*)

[Irontruth]

I like Rey's character, I do think elements of her story were problematic. I'll point out which ones were and which ones weren't:

Spoiler:

Her fighting skills: Not a problem.

When Finn arrives at the settlement he sees her take on 2 opponents who are larger than herself. This is firm establishment that Rey knows how to fight. We also see her take shots at stormtroopers and be quite effective. So when we get to the end and she fights (a twice wounded) Kylo Ren, it isn't outrageous that she can hold her own.

Her mechanical skills: Not a problem

We're introduced to her as a scavenger. Picking through a wreck like that would take skill, you'd need to know what things are, what's still in good enough condition to be worth anything and where you might find those things. When getting on the MF, she regularly addresses mechanical issues. This gets firmly established and routinely referenced.

Her Force skills: A problem

If you look at the above two, the problem becomes clear, there's no establishment for her skill in the Force, we were given clues that she's a raw talent though. This could have been done quite simply in a couple of ways: 1) when negotiating with her owner/employer on Jakku, she is mysteriously successful in getting what she wants. 2) When Kylo Ren froze her in place, allow her to struggle and continue to move, forcing Ren to double his efforts and still subdue her. A couple of minor tweaks like this would have established more clearly what she was capable of doing. Instead, Rey is about to use the force to persuade a stormtrooper to do her bidding. Within the movie, we as the audience know that this is possible, but it's not even established in any way that Rey knows this is possible.

Her plot reliance: A problem

At the end, Rey is sent to find Luke. Why? We aren't given a reason. Leia was willing to risk the Resistance to get this information. She sent her best pilot to get the map, then sent him again (plus a squadron of X-wings) to recover it. Once she has the map though, she sends this girl she's never met to go track down her brother. In addition, the only person alive to vouch for her is Chewbacca (Finn was in a comma), but this isn't established. She and Leia hug, and evidently this is the only requirement for being sent on the Resistance's most important mission ever.

I don't have a problem with Rey herself, but rather how some aspects were squeezed in without establishing why/how. The things that happened were well within the bounds of what makes for a good storyline and the character is entertaining, some small details got dropped and would have established her story much more solidly.

[Sheriff Bart]

I liked the movie. The more I think about it, including points made above, the more I like it. I was a big critic of plot holes, etc. too but there are so few films that can come close to "being accurate" in an explainable way (especially since every year brings new discoveries) that it doesn't seem worth it anymore so I have learned to view movies from ignorance. Its more fun that way.

One thing to add to the nerdgasm here - I don't remember (above) who it was mentioning the "same old themes" but John Williams' score is as much Star Wars as lightsabers are. Star Wars wouldn't be as popular without either one of them.

Even when Williams signs off of writing new SW themes in the very near future, his work will still be there and I will bet my next 10 paychecks the main theme still opens every movie.

You can play that main title in almost any part of the world and have it recognized - often in one chord. Few things are that famous.

My favorite part of the movie was when my childhood intersected with my daughter's childhood. Ain't nothing that will ever replace that. I saw SW at 7 and she is 11.

[Matthew Morris]

Irontruth wrote:

(<redacted> was in a comma)

I thought "A long time ago, in a galaxy far far a way" made this a period piece.

Way to punctuate my thought bubble.

[The_Hanged_Man]

archmagi1 wrote:

Heh, since I'm in the minority, I'll post a bit more. The plot problems are best described as a quote from a seven-eight year old boy as he's talking to his friend behind me as we're leaving.

** spoiler omitted **

Actually, I think

Spoiler:

there is a great degree of self loathing when it comes to Kylo. He also talks to himself in a very Gollum-like fashion which suggests an internal struggle to a degree that is making him go mad.

[archmagi1]

A link to stuff in the novelization that didn't make the theatrical cut:

Spoilerific SWNN story

[Bellona]

Now I'm wondering if there are any deleted scenes (dropped in the name of the almighty "don't make a movie too long" policy) which might elucidate some of these points.

Also, the explanations for some of the "plot holes" are probably being saved for the next film. Rey's backstory/training and skills will most likely be revealed then (I hope!).

[BigDTBone]

Sheriff Bart wrote:

I liked the movie. The more I think about it, including points made above, the more I like it. I was a big critic of plot holes, etc. too but there are so few films that can come close to "being accurate" in an explainable way (especially since every year brings new discoveries) that it doesn't seem worth it anymore so I have learned to view movies from ignorance. Its more fun that way.

One thing to add to the nerdgasm here - I don't remember (above) who it was mentioning the "same old themes" but John Williams' score is as much Star Wars as lightsabers are. Star Wars wouldn't be as popular without either one of them.

Even when Williams signs off of writing new SW themes in the very near future, his work will still be there and I will bet my next 10 paychecks the main theme still opens every movie.

You can play that main title in almost any part of the world and have it recognized - often in one chord. Few things are that famous.

My favorite part of the movie was when my childhood intersected with my daughter's childhood. Ain't nothing that will ever replace that. I saw SW at 7 and she is 11.

My point about the recycled themes wasn't that they didn't belong. It's Star Wars, they very very much do belong. My point was that no new iconic themes were written and that makes me sad.

For Example, in The Phantom Menace we got Anakin's Theme and Duel of Fates, in Attack of the Clones we got Across the Stars, and in Revenge of the Sith we got Battle of Heroes. I really wish we would have gotten something new.

[pres man]

My ranking prior to VII:
V
IV
VI
III
II
I

With VII:
V
IV
VI (the Luke/Vader/Emperor scenes push it above)
VII
III
II
I

[Sheriff Bart]

Personally, I'm hoping the ultimate evil BBG is Leia.

Or 3P0.

[Peter Stewart]

magnuskn wrote:

Alright, just returned an hour ago from my first viewing of the movie.

Spoiler:

The politics of the setting seem screwed up or completely underdeveloped. Why is there a Resistance movement when the Republic still exists? How did the First Order rise? What systems do they control. Did we really have to make the Nazi analogy so obvious this time around?

My take on this particular question:

Spoiler:

After the Emperor died the Empire did not suddenly collapse, but it did begin to drift back towards moderation. Bureaucracy by its nature is not given to grand displays. Now, here, thirty years later, we have a Republic again, with a senate, but very much with some imperial feel to it still. The Rebellion is the remaining hardliners that are still not happy, just as the First Order is the remaining Imperial Hardliners that are not happy with it.

Mind you, that's complete speculation, but it was how I rationalized it in my head, especially with:

Spoiler:

The lack of resources the Rebels seemed to have, and the comments about them getting some support from the Senate

[Grey Lensman]

Also possible: Balkanization.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Spoiler:

Rey's force powers didn't bother me. Luke figured out how to do telekinesis on his own, and got one lightsaber lesson before using the force to make a one-in-a-million shot and blow up the Death Star

This article makes some good arguments.

An article with spoilers