Generally in low cases of Fast Healing like BAB/5, it doesn't really matter how much you have. Just that having any would usually mean you're all healed up for the next combat.
so i mentioned in another thread, I think i'm going to make a system similar to mythic that can give some general abilities and some ones tied to specific class abilities. they gain ranks at a speed based on how much casting they get, wizards getting none.
Why not BAB/10? That way mages only get any at the very highest level, and it's more a "Okay, let's rest for an hour" than "Okay, let's rest for a few minutes". Clerics are still really good when you're in a hurry.
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I just want my fighter to have a self-heal, that's all ;_;Not fair to only give that to fighters - that would open up questions about why can the fighter heal but the rogue cannot, or the wizard cannot.
But what about something like this:
Every character gets Fast Healing X, where X = BAB/5.
(or for those who don't like math, X is always equal to the number of iterative attacks you're allowed).
This way everyone gets it, even the top-tier classes, but they get less of it. It removes the necessity of a Healbot (I know, not exactly a necessity but many groups think it is, now they won't) but it doesn't remove the necessity of a condition-removal-bot.
To me that feels too fast. I wouldn't want it to actually be much of a factor in combat. So maybe divide it by 10, so X = BAB/50. This way a 1st level fighter (or 2nd level rogue, etc.) would gain 1 HP every 50 rounds (5 minutes). He could fully heal in about an hour, which has the added benefit of slowing down the adventuring day (prolonging it past 15 minutes).
The answer to the first question would be "Because that's how Fifth Edition did it, and Snorb really likes Fifth Edition." =p
Okay, here we go. Here's my proposed solution to this whole affair, because I also liked Saga Edition and think unlimited fast healing X would be a bit too much.
Second Wind: As a standard action, you can roll a die equal to your class's Hit Die and add your Constitution modifier. You immediately recover that many hit points. (If you are a multiclass character, use the larger Hit Die. For example, a fighter/rogue would roll a d10, while an alchemist/wizard would roll a d8.) You can do this once per day.
Extra Second Wind
You just don't know when to quit.
Benefit: You can catch your second wind an additional time per day, but only once per encounter.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you can catch your second wind an additional time per day (but still only once per encounter.)
Shrug It Off
Nothing's going to keep you down.
Benefit: Whenever you catch your second wind, you gain a new save against any disease or poison currently affecting you, or any effect that would be reduced or negated with a successful Fortitude save.
Improved Second Wind
You can take punishment more easily than others.
Benefit: Whenever you catch your second wind, roll a d6 in addition to the die you would normally roll for your second wind. Add the d6's result to your recovered hit points.
Greater Second Wind
You shrug off injury like an old overcoat.
Prerequisite: Improved Second Wind
Benefit: Whenever you catch your second wind, add half your Constitution score to the total hit points recovered.
Nothing's going to keep you down.
You're the best around.
Ahem.
There's Godless Healing and it's about as weak your iteration of the feat. I really like the things Rogue and Fighter got in 5e (Rogue Time and Fighter Time, as I've referred to them previously). If you want to add in Healing Surge, I think you should do it full throttle. It's basically a reflavored self only lay on hands.
It has to be a swift or immediate action, or else it takes too long. If it's a standard action, it has to be a big heal, because you're basically giving your opponents an extra turn to destroy you.
So in summary, things I would like (in the constraints of non-wuxia):
Bonus actions, super luck, immediate actions.
Swift/immediate actions are overly utilized on some classes, while other classes never have any use for them. Which is a real shame I think.
Just off the top of my head, why not a system not unlike the skill unlocks for rogues in Unchained, except dealing with "nice things" for martials?
Break it into things like "Enhanced Movement" where you can augment your speed/leaping/swimming/climbing ability to what some would call magical.
"Nothing can stop me!" could lead to being able to do the sort of mountain cutting (albeit maybe just hills?) that people keep referencing.
"Magic? HAHAHAH!" could bring the character higher and higher resistance to magical effects, perhaps linked with another ability that allows that resistance to help disrupt/destroy spells.
And so on. Link it to Stamina even. But make it so that it benefits fighters or other martials without allowing someone to dip for all the goodies.
If you decide to go Mythic, you have to determine a few things:
-Who gets access? Which classes are considered martial for this discussion. Do we mean martial, or non-casting classes? If we mean non-casting, does that include spell-less rangers and paladins?
-Access to what? Mythic has four components: Base mythic abilities, universal path abilities, mythic paths, and mythic feats. The way I see it, they can be made available independently.
-Which mythic paths? If the goal is to increase broadness, instead of focus, then I would shy away from Champion and Guardian. Trickster and Marshall are obvious choices, but I wonder to what extent classes like the fighter can take advantage of their features.
-Which mythic feats? Some people on the boards have complained about certain feats, like mythic vital strike for example. A DM should carefully look at those before letting them in his game.
That's what I have so far on mythic. I'd say it's definitely worth considering, especially after mid-levels.
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Nothing's going to keep you down.You're the best around.
Ahem.
There's Godless Healing and it's about as weak your iteration of the feat. I really like the things Rogue and Fighter got in 5e (Rogue Time and Fighter Time, as I've referred to them previously). If you want to add in Healing Surge, I think you should do it full throttle. It's basically a reflavored self only lay on hands.
It has to be a swift or immediate action, or else it takes too long. If it's a standard action, it has to be a big heal, because you're basically giving your opponents an extra turn to destroy you.
So in summary, things I would like (in the constraints of non-wuxia):
Bonus actions, super luck, immediate actions.Swift/immediate actions are overly utilized on some classes, while other classes never have any use for them. Which is a real shame I think.
You could have waited for me to edit in the Improved/Greater Second Wind feats! =p
In fairness, Saga Edition's second wind is "Okay, half your health. Heal it back up." and Fifth's is "1d10 + your fighter level, heal that up." I'm not good at game balance... ;_;
Fighters actually do way too much damage, and mythic will make them explode with even more damage.
Full attack from a martial means you are dead, except in the mid levels where you have a pretty good chance of surviving.
It is why pounce is so good because you basically say "ok guy x is dead, next turn guy y, next turn guy z, combat over"
Fighters do less damage than Paladins, Barbarians, and Rangers. And Magi. And Inquisitors. And certain archetype Monks. And they have less defenses, because they have garbage saves, their AC, CMB, and CMD don't mean crap, and their class features are even worse. There is zero reason to play a Fighter if you want to be the most optimized martial character; in fact, they work best as a dipping class for proficiencies and feats, and that's it.
Giving them Mythic Tiers will actually put them on par with the other martials. Rogues need just about as much help as Fighters do, and I mean the Unchained Rogue; the base Pathfinder Rogue doesn't even exist as far as I'm concerned.
If you want skills, the Lore Warden is one way to go. If you want spellcasting, then play a spellcasting martial. If you want full BAB and unarmored options, then you have the new UnChained! Monk. If you want stealth and trapfinding, play a Trapper Ranger.
That's going down the wrong path.
See, your advice, while perfectly good, says: "Gosh, there are about a hundred martial classes, counting archetypes, probably more than a hundred, but 95% are just lousy traps - if you want to achieve a playable and enjoyable martial of a certain flavor, then you probably, almost certainly, cannot do it the way you want, or even the next 3 or 4 ways that come to mind, because those are horribly broken and no fun. So just ignore the crappy 95% and limit yourself to the 5% that actually work."
More or less.
Yeah, sure, if I want a "spellcasting martial" I should play one. But what if I want just a fighter, but I want him to at least make a passingly good show of standing next to a wizard and not have everyone think he's the wizard's butler.
What if I want a monk but don't want to play the unchained one? And what if I don't really like the MoMS flavor, but would rather be the badass master of one style and look like Jean Claude van Damme out there, without looking like the wizard's unarmored chamber boy?
Etc.
In short, this game has a lot to offer, but your suggestion (correctly) says to ignore most of it. Don't pick a class & archetype that sounds cool and then find a way to make it work - if you do that, you're screwed unless you got very lucky. Instead, pick an end-goal and then find some expert player who can tell you exactly which class, archetype, traits, feats, point-buy, and magic items will get you there = because anything else and you'll feel about as useful as Short Round in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom...
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So it comes to the same exact question again. if you're not going to make martials magicians, what do you want?How many threads have to be churned out in the space of 72 hours over this, when "Martials" ALREADY DO get nice things??? How uber do you have to be, and what do you consider "balanced" when the classes are so different in so many ways? Even if you remain convinced that certain classes are underpowered relative to others, shouldn't wanting built-in Mythic Tiers be an unambiguous sign you've crossed over into "you're getting ridiculous" territory?Martials can stab people... and ummmmmmmmmm. Nope that's it. That's why people say they don't have nice things. Martial classes like the Slayer do help though with their ability to get a bonus on a few skills, but it's nowhere near the utility that casters get.
You do know there's a 13-page thread on this very topic going on right now. (See? Over there? On the sidebar?)
I'm in a Mythic E6 game right now with a Daring Champion Cavalier. I was excited for playing Mythic because I was looking for exactly the kind of thing the OP proposes.
Mythic does not expand martial options. The options that expand your narrative power at all are extremely limited; the only one that was even remotely viable for me to use was to get a legendary item for the sole purpose of faking being a spellcaster. Basically, if you're a martial who wants to do cool things the very existence of mythic rules is a massive kick in the nads.
Meanwhile the sorcerer gets spontaneous access to the entire sorc/wiz spell list as a swift action...
So it comes down to: WTF is a "nice thing" for a martial?
edit: I don't intend to start a whole new thread to discuss THAT.
So it comes down to: WTF is a "nice thing" for a martial?
edit: I don't intend to start a whole new thread to discuss THAT.
Something that gives them narrative power on par with spells is a good start. Things that are COOL and thematic, but powerful.
Like I said earlier, things like Seven League Leap and that one that lets you charge through a wall without slowing down.
@HWalsh: Check the bestiary some time. Find me a CR 12+ monster that is Medium or smaller with no SLAs or other special abilities, a 30 ft. Move speed or less, and no ranged attack of any kind.Okay, I won't even participate if you are going to try to limit it that bad.
I'm limiting it that badly because starting from STEP ONE your scenario only works if all of those things are true AND the Fighter wins Initiative.
Why limit it to medium though? You can also use most of those tactics on Large creatures as well.
A Large creature has 10 ft. Reach, meaning he can Charge 60 feet and still attack the Fighter. Already the scenario has changed.
In my example I used "Monster" but it shouldn't be just monsters, unless you are a very lazy GM and only pull a monster out. Humans, Elves, Dwarves, etc are all viable enemies and can all fit the requested criteria.
CL 12? How about any martial class set as an antagonist of equal level.
And why can't these people use the same tactics as the Fighter? They have all the same capabilities. For all intents and purposes, they can be the same character. They have access to all the same Feats and items the PC Fighter has access to.
Then let us not forget there are tons of non CL 12 that fit the bill, I gave an example, Mohrg's are CL 8 and fit very nicely.
Firstly, the Mohrg is quite likely to win Initiative (they have a +8 Initiative, higher than you would generally expect a Fighter to have).
Secondly, not sure how this is really relevant. A CR 8 creature is two CR below an "Easy" encounter (the lone Fighter 12 is CR 12, and APL 11. An Easy encounter would be CR 10), The Fighter being able to take it on doesn't exactly make any sort of case for his usefulness.
Finally, nitpick, CR and CL are entirely different things. CL stands for Caster Level. Could get confusing if you continue to do that.
As for "Can keep going forever" of course they need help. Everyone needs help. They can go far longer than others though.
But they can't though, for two different reasons.
First and foremost, when the majority of the party needs to rest, the Fighter is gonna do it too. His choices are rest, or go on alone. The latter is a poor tactical option.
Second, Fighters don't fare well unbuffed against creatures with funky powers. Anything that targets a Will save is their bane, for instance. Without cool stuff like Heroism boosting their saves, they will inevitably fail one.
Martials can stab people... and ummmmmmmmmm. Nope that's it. That's why people say they don't have nice things. Martial classes like the Slayer do help though with their ability to get a bonus on a few skills, but it's nowhere near the utility that casters get.So it comes to the same exact question again. if you're not going to make martials magicians, what do you want? And please make it something other than the ability to punch rivers into new courses with your fist.
If you want skills, the Lore Warden is one way to go. If you want spellcasting, then play a spellcasting martial. If you want full BAB and unarmored options, then you have the new UnChained! Monk. If you want stealth and trapfinding, play a Trapper Ranger.
Well, I specifically don't want skills. Because as I said, skills are nowhere near the utility of a caster. At the very least martials from path of war can do some non-skill stuff; like tracking through scent, lifting giant objects, teleporting, healing allies, flight, passing through walls, charm enemies, etc. It's still not anywhere near as much as a high-level caster can do, but it at least has much much better utility than a standard martial.
Don't forget special senses like a Scent that works on Incorporeal creatures and things nearby on the Ethereal plane.
so I started to make badass system for martials, need more ideas though, I have this so far.
NEED MORE IDEAS
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So finally we have an answer. You think that every high level martial must be a part sorcerer/wizard in order to have something defined as "narrative power". And that's because you seem to have narrowly defined narrative power as the ability to do wizard or godlike stuff. So narrative power obviously has nothing to do with roleplaying, or having a character take a role and fulfill it.
What? No. Narrative power is the ability to affect the narrative. These abilities allow someone to do more stuff to affect the narrative rather than just affecting combat. I'm not sure where your getting wizard/godlike from.
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So finally we have an answer. You think that every high level martial must be a part sorcerer/wizard in order to have something defined as "narrative power". And that's because you seem to have narrowly defined narrative power as the ability to do wizard or godlike stuff. So narrative power obviously has nothing to do with roleplaying, or having a character take a role and fulfill it.Well, I specifically don't want skills. Because as I said, skills are nowhere near the utility of a caster. At the very least martials from path of war can do some non-skill stuff; like tracking through scent, lifting giant objects, teleporting, healing allies, flight, passing through walls, charm enemies, etc. It's still not anywhere near as much as a high-level caster can do, but it at least has much much better utility than a standard martial.Martials can stab people... and ummmmmmmmmm. Nope that's it. That's why people say they don't have nice things. Martial classes like the Slayer do help though with their ability to get a bonus on a few skills, but it's nowhere near the utility that casters get.So it comes to the same exact question again. if you're not going to make martials magicians, what do you want? And please make it something other than the ability to punch rivers into new courses with your fist.
If you want skills, the Lore Warden is one way to go. If you want spellcasting, then play a spellcasting martial. If you want full BAB and unarmored options, then you have the new UnChained! Monk. If you want stealth and trapfinding, play a Trapper Ranger.
Narrative power is the ability to affect the narrative. Nothing more and nothing less. Obviously, martials have this ability, since even being able to kill a single enemy affects the narrative. However, "I can defeat an enemy." does not change the narrative as much as "We are now on another plane of existence." Thus there is a gap.
The issue is not that Fighter's have *no* narrative power. It's that compared to a full caster they have *very little* narrative power. The problem is not that we defined narrative power as "stuff a caster can do". The problem is that casters themselves have set the bar. And that bar is to high for a martial to reach.
so I started to make badass system for martials, need more ideas though, I have this so far.
NEED MORE IDEAS
You have Strip the Flesh, now you need Salt the Wound.
Salt the Wound
Prereq: Strip the Flesh, BT 8
Description: The badass does not shy from pain, he welcomes it. The badass gains DR/- equal to his Constitution modifier. This stacks with DR/- from other sources, such as class features and the Stalwart Feat.
Nobody has suggested it but it might do exactly what people want. All weak martials start with a scaling magical item like those from Unchained. Make it thematic to the class and the characters story. You could also look at applying innate item bonuses without the cost increase to martial's itemsitems to give their items an edge and allow them to buy those belts they have looked at but never bought because they needed that belt of giants strength
Just an idea
stuff.Other things do too much damage as well, I know that
If other things do too much damage as well, then why are you complaining about the Fighter's damage being too high, a class who does even less damage than a lot of the Martial classes, and has even less features and abilities than those other Martials?
The fact that, against an inoptimized Barbarian, that I, as an inoptimized Fighter, have to use a Cleric-only spell, a 3.5 spell, and Haste (which the Barbarian didn't have), to just keep relevant against a Barbarian's Rage and his Rage Powers, is proof enough.
Let's not forget inoptimized Paladins that still have immunities, ridiculous saves, and can Smite 90% of every single monster in the game, bypassing all DR. Fighters don't even get any feature remotely that great until 16th level, and guess what? It's still not good enough.
Did I also mention archetyped Monks, who also get great saves, as well as access to some of the most interesting class features and martial feats in the game, that make the Fighter-only feats look like dog s&!@?
Rangers have more utilitarian bonus feats, since they can ignore pre-requisites. Favored Enemy/Terrain, Quarry, and Evasion, later down the road, are all still very nice, relevant features.
Don't even get me started on the nova capabilities that are the Magus and Inquisitor, or the other martials, like the Cavalier/Samurai, Brawler, or Swashbuckler, which is basically a Fighter 2.0.
so I started to make badass system for martials, need more ideas though, I have this so far.
NEED MORE IDEAS
I'm thinking it might be best if we open up a thread specifically for this in the Homebrew section.
While I'm commenting though... why is the stat increase a 'bonus'? For all practical purposes it's an increase, I can't think of any good reason to include yet another bonus to be tracked.
as far as i was aware ability score increases inherent bonuses... oh yeah i actually took the wording of the FAQ about ability score increases.
also i didn't join the chat because i went to sleep immediately after posting it.
Nobody has suggested it but it might do exactly what people want. All weak martials start with a scaling magical item like those from Unchained. Make it thematic to the class and the characters story. You could also look at applying innate item bonuses without the cost increase to martial's itemsitems to give their items an edge and allow them to buy those belts they have looked at but never bought because they needed that belt of giants strength
Just an idea
Agreed on the second idea. The innate bonuses from Unchained's magic chapter are a fantastic idea. In fact, they really should just be the standard, with bonuses from items being things you can 'tap' that provide a different type (or maybe just typeless) of bonus X number of times per day. If I had the time, I'd probably write up a point-buy system where characters can purchase new levels of each kind of benefit (deflection to AC, resistance to saves, ability score bonuses, etc) with points they gain upon leveling. Each new level awards more points than the one before and each new level of benefit required more points to achieve. Also, some tiers of these couldn't be purchased until you hit a minimum class level. It'd give characters flexibility to purchase what was most relevant to them. From what I can remember, GURPS did something similar.
Your first idea sounds good, but it still trying to fix a disparity that arises from magic with magic. The character's legacy weapon or shield or cloak or whatever can be shut down with a dispel magic from any random mook that can toss such a spell. And of course, disjunction and anti-magic field would always win against those items. Now, if the item had a clause that allowed a save against the latter spells and added, say, half the bearer's HD as to the dispel check DC, that might work better.
so I started to make badass system for martials, need more ideas though, I have this so far.
NEED MORE IDEAS
OK. I've got one or two that ought to give martials a nice bit of narrative power in their own way.
UTTER END
Prereq: BT 10
Description: This ability allows a Badass to kill someone so thoroughly that their soul endures damage beyond repair and can never return to their body. Any attempts to resurrect the individual automatically fail, as do any attempts to recreate the individual as an undead being. This ability can be negated by an individual with a higher Badass Tier than the one who killed them.
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so I started to make badass system for martials, need more ideas though, I have this so far.
NEED MORE IDEAS
OK. I've got one or two that ought to give martials a nice bit of narrative power in their own way.
UTTER END
Prereq: BT 10
Description: This ability allows a Badass to kill someone so thoroughly that their soul endures damage beyond repair and can never return to their body. Any attempts to resurrect the individual automatically fail, as do any attempts to recreate the individual as an undead being. This ability can be negated by an individual with a higher Badass Tier than the one who killed them.
Utter End
Prereq: BT 10Description: The badass can make someone not want to come back. The badass may as a swift action after killing an opponent make an intimidate check to demoralize the dead opponent. If successful the target will decline any attempts to resurrect it.
lol
so I started to make badass system for martials, need more ideas though, I have this so far.
NEED MORE IDEAS
OK. I've got one or two that ought to give martials a nice bit of narrative power in their own way.
UTTER END
Prereq: BT 10
Description: This ability allows a Badass to kill someone so thoroughly that their soul endures damage beyond repair and can never return to their body. Any attempts to resurrect the individual automatically fail, as do any attempts to recreate the individual as an undead being. This ability can be negated by an individual with a higher Badass Tier than the one who killed them.If we want to mitigate the supernatural fluff, there is an alternative flavor for this one.
EDIT: dammit, Ninja'd by a badass.
Prereq: BT 10
Description: This ability allows a Badass to kill someone so violently that their soul is forever scarred by the encounter and remains too fearful to return to the mortal realm, rejecting any and all efforts to raise/resurrect them.
I do not like this ability. I don't want to have to roll up a new character because the GM decided to use a martial BBEG. I also don't want to have to resort to "this recurring villain is actually the last villain's twin sister, yeah, that's the ticket" when I'm the GM in question.
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Trap the Soul already exists. And Hellfire Ray. And probably a few others.
I do not like this ability. I don't want to have to roll up a new character because the GM decided to use a martial BBEG. I also don't want to have to resort to "this recurring villain is actually the last villain's twin sister, yeah, that's the ticket" when I'm the GM in question.so I started to make badass system for martials, need more ideas though, I have this so far.
NEED MORE IDEAS
OK. I've got one or two that ought to give martials a nice bit of narrative power in their own way.
UTTER END
Prereq: BT 10
Description: This ability allows a Badass to kill someone so thoroughly that their soul endures damage beyond repair and can never return to their body. Any attempts to resurrect the individual automatically fail, as do any attempts to recreate the individual as an undead being. This ability can be negated by an individual with a higher Badass Tier than the one who killed them.If we want to mitigate the supernatural fluff, there is an alternative flavor for this one.
EDIT: dammit, Ninja'd by a badass.
Prereq: BT 10
Description: This ability allows a Badass to kill someone so violently that their soul is forever scarred by the encounter and remains too fearful to return to the mortal realm, rejecting any and all efforts to raise/resurrect them.
well it;s a talent, you;d have to choose this over apply con mod to AC in my system, choices choices... (this probably isn;t going to be chosen often even for BBEG)
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I do not like this ability. I don't want to have to roll up a new character because the GM decided to use a martial BBEG. I also don't want to have to resort to "this recurring villain is actually the last villain's twin sister, yeah, that's the ticket" when I'm the GM in question.so I started to make badass system for martials, need more ideas though, I have this so far.
NEED MORE IDEAS
OK. I've got one or two that ought to give martials a nice bit of narrative power in their own way.
UTTER END
Prereq: BT 10
Description: This ability allows a Badass to kill someone so thoroughly that their soul endures damage beyond repair and can never return to their body. Any attempts to resurrect the individual automatically fail, as do any attempts to recreate the individual as an undead being. This ability can be negated by an individual with a higher Badass Tier than the one who killed them.If we want to mitigate the supernatural fluff, there is an alternative flavor for this one.
EDIT: dammit, Ninja'd by a badass.
Prereq: BT 10
Description: This ability allows a Badass to kill someone so violently that their soul is forever scarred by the encounter and remains too fearful to return to the mortal realm, rejecting any and all efforts to raise/resurrect them.
I'll chose to take this as a sign that I'm on the right track. After all, as Rynjin pointed out, there are ways for a caster to do this exact same thing (ironically, it becomes hilariously easy if you have a Cacaodaemon familiar). So it looks to me to be a step in the right direction to balance out the narrative power between casters and martials.
do you think i should have a badass talent to allow you to qualify for crafting feats using your badass tier for your caster level?