How to bypass the 'standard' list of maneuvers you can perform with a weapon?

[ohako]

Core Rulebook FAQ wrote:

re: Weapon Finesse and maneuvers: It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).

My question is this: Are there any ways to perform different combat maneuvers with a weapon?

The answer is either 'No', or 'Yes, these'. What follows are a stack of examples whose question is thus basically, 'Is this one of them?'

Ultimate Combat wrote:

Greater Whip Mastery: You are so quick with your whip that you never drop it due to a failed disarm or trip combat maneuver attempt. Further, you gain the ability to grapple using your whip. To do so, use the normal grapple rules with the following changes.

Is this one of them?

Melee Tactics Toolbox wrote:

Sticky: This special ability can be placed only on reach weapons, piercing melee weapons, and weapons from the flail fighter weapon training group. When a sticky weapon scores a critical hit against a target, instead of rolling to confirm the critical threat, the wielder can deal normal damage and attempt a steal combat maneuver check against the target of the attack. This combat maneuver doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity, and the wielder gains a +2 bonus on the combat maneuver check.

Is this one of them?

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Bounty Hunter: Dirty Trick (Ex): At 2nd level, anytime a bounty hunter is able to deal sneak attack damage to a studied target, he can instead attempt to hamper the target. The bounty hunter must declare that he’s using this ability before the attack roll is made. If the attack hits, it deals damage normally, but instead of rolling sneak attack damage, the bounty hunter can attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver against the studied target as a free action, adding 1 to the combat maneuver check for each die of the bounty hunter’s sneak attack damage. This combat maneuver does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces the slayer talent gained at 2nd level.

Is this one of them?

Dragon Empires Primer wrote:

White-Haired Witch: At 1st level, whenever the hair strikes a foe, the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity, using her Intelligence modifier in place of her Strength modifier when making the combat maneuver check.

At 4th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to trip the creature as a free action.

At 6th level, a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to her as a free action.

Aside from the initial grapple check (which gets its own substitution), are these some of them?

In addition to the main question, are there any more examples that folks can think of?

[Korlos]

Net Maneuvering lets you make drag and reposition maneuvers with a net. Net Trickery lets you make dirty trick maneuvers with a net.

[Melkiador]

I really would like to know how the Bounty Hunter's Dirty Trick ability works. If it works through the weapon attack, then would it also work from range? I'm hoping the ACG errata will answer this, but if it doesn't, I plan to start a FAQ request.

[ohako]

Korlos wrote:

Net Maneuvering lets you make drag and reposition maneuvers with a net. Net Trickery lets you make dirty trick maneuvers with a net.

Yep! That's another example exactly. You can't use Weapon Finesse with a net in melee, but a magic net may (according to the answer of the question) give the wielder its enhancement bonus to these maneuvers.

[BadBird]

Bullrushing someone with a light shield and Shield Slam simply uses your shield attack roll.

A weapon with the trip property can be used for reposition.

[Arachnofiend]

These net feats have existed since Ultimate Combat??? I don't know why I haven't heard of them before; a Lore Warden/Martial Master using a net and these feats would be a really strong control build. You have access to any maneuver feat you want, and you'll actually be really good at it. Maybe a Half-Orc with the Beastmaster racial trait...

[FLite]

I think unfortunately, this one is ultimately going to come down to GM call.

This Blog post lists a few more.

From the article:
A sap used to hit someone in a sensative spot as a dirty trick adds the saps enhancement bonus.
Any weapon with the trip feature adds it's bonuses to trip, reposition, and drag.
A 13th level polearm master gets the ability to make bullrushes with a polearm or spear, and those add the weapon's enhancement bonus.

[ohako]

Oh nice, so there already are known exceptions to the standard list.

This means the answer is 'Yes, these', and two of them are basically called out already

a) A 13th-level polearm master can bull rush with a polearm. The polearm can be an elven branched spear, so you can use Weapon Finesse with that.
b) Someone with Shield Slam doesn't even have to roll CMB to try to bull rush with a shield. If you are so inclined, you can use Weapon Finesse with a light shield.

[Cap. Darling]

Yes, yes, yes and the hair is a natural weapon with somthing very close to grab i dont Think you get weapon enhancments and stuff from the AoMF and stuff to that so i would say no to that.

[Triune]

These are strict RAW answers, so ask your DM to see if you can get more wiggle room.

1. Yes, it specifically says you use the weapon for the maneuver.

2. Vague, but strict RAW no, as it does not technically say you use the weapon for the maneuver. However the flavor heavily implies yes, so I don't think you'll have any trouble convincing your DM of this one.

3. No, it does not state you're using the weapon for the maneuver.

4. The grapple is with her hair, so yes. Trips are always usable with weapons, so yes again. The pull is not on the list of weapon usable maneuvers and RAW it doesn't say its with the hair (it could be thought of as a head yank, for instance), but as with sticky its heavily implied, so RAW no but likely yes by DM fiat.

[ohako]

Cap. Darling wrote:

Yes, yes, yes and the hair is a natural weapon with somthing very close to grab i dont Think you get weapon enhancments and stuff from the AoMF and stuff to that so i would say no to that.

So you're saying that if you grapple someone with a magic whip then you get the whip's bonuses, but if you grapple someone with white hair (and you scrubbed greater magic fang shampoo into your head that morning), that you're out of luck?

[haremlord]

I've been wondering something similar (I started this thread yesterday about a similar line of questions)

So if I gather correctly from Triune's answer for number 4, since it says "the witch can attempt to grapple that foe with her hair", that means feats/spells/etc. that affect your hair attack bonus also affect your grapple check, but since it says "a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature 5 feet closer to her as a free action" and doesn't say "a white-haired witch who successfully strikes a foe with her hair can attempt a combat maneuver check to pull the creature with her hair 5 feet closer to her as a free action", the witch doesn't get hair bonuses to the pull check, right? I'm assuming because it could be seen less than her hair moving on it's own (like Medusa from Marvel Comics) and more like she's using her neck muscles to do the pulling (which also would explain why there's no mention of using intelligence instead of strength for this check).

I also assume that the adjustments to the grapple check would only apply to the initial check, not to maintaining the grapple.

To apply this reasoning to my current conundrum, the grab special attack says "If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity." Since it doesn't say "to start a grapple with the indicated attack as a free action", no modifiers for the indicated attack (bite, claw, unarmed strike, whatever) would count?

[GinoA]

ohako wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

Yes, yes, yes and the hair is a natural weapon with somthing very close to grab i dont Think you get weapon enhancments and stuff from the AoMF and stuff to that so i would say no to that.

So you're saying that if you grapple someone with a magic whip then you get the whip's bonuses, but if you grapple someone with white hair (and you scrubbed greater magic fang shampoo into your head that morning), that you're out of luck?

I'm pretty sure that stuff counts as a leave-in conditioner.

[Suthainn]

ohako wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

Yes, yes, yes and the hair is a natural weapon with somthing very close to grab i dont Think you get weapon enhancments and stuff from the AoMF and stuff to that so i would say no to that.

So you're saying that if you grapple someone with a magic whip then you get the whip's bonuses, but if you grapple someone with white hair (and you scrubbed greater magic fang shampoo into your head that morning), that you're out of luck?

I'm reasonably sure that you get the benefits of an AoMF, the text in how to run Combat Maneuvers says this;

PRD wrote:

When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.

Whether you are using yourself or the hair to perform the combat maneuver the AoMF will provide a bonus as would any other effects that affect your natural or unarmed attacks.

[haremlord]

GinoA wrote:

ohako wrote:

Cap. Darling wrote:

Yes, yes, yes and the hair is a natural weapon with somthing very close to grab i dont Think you get weapon enhancments and stuff from the AoMF and stuff to that so i would say no to that.

So you're saying that if you grapple someone with a magic whip then you get the whip's bonuses, but if you grapple someone with white hair (and you scrubbed greater magic fang shampoo into your head that morning), that you're out of luck?

I'm pretty sure that stuff counts as a leave-in conditioner.

Okay, that was funny. :) Well played :D

And I suddenly want to figure out a way to make a White Haired witch and add Sticky to her hair. Maybe call her "Mary"...

<crickets>

[Melkiador]

Reminds me of Sedusa from the Powerpuff Girls.