|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A few more fixes to help martials
Combat Maneuvers: I am grouping combat maneuvers. Now if you decide to take improved [combat maneuver], you get multiple. They are Improved Agile Maneuvers (Trip, Disarm, Dirty Trick, Reposition, and Steal) and Improved Power Maneuvers (Bull Rush, Overrun, Drag, Grapple, and Sunder). Improved Agile Maneuvers requires Combat Expertise or Piranha Strike and Improved Power Maneuvers requires Power Attack or Combat Expertise. Note: Greater versions of these feats still require that you choose specific combat maneuvers.
-Most of these never get used and even the ones that do have limited use, so why not get more bang for your buck?
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting: Replace this feat and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting with the following feat (you count as having both for the purposes of prerequisites to other feats, classes, etc);
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB +6, Dex 17
Benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty. At 11th level, you get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a –10 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon.
-Feat tax. This second feat invests you into TWF without requiring you to sell your soul again in 5 levels.
Dodge: Replace Dodge and Mobility with the following feat (you count as having both for the purposes of prerequisites to other feats, classes, etc);
Mobility
Prerequisites: Dex 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC. This bonus increases to +5 against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area. A condition that makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC also makes you lose the benefits of this feat.
-Talk about feat taxes. Dodge is weak on its own and mobility is mediocre at best. Together they’re a solid feat and give easier access to spring attack and whirlwind attack. Might also make shadowdancer and duelist more attractive.
Point-Blank Shot: Replace Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot with the following feat (you count as having both for the purposes of prerequisites to other feats, classes, etc);
Precise Shot
Benefit: You no longer take the -4 penalty for shooting into melee. You also get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.
anzyr, where's my damn story?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
anzyr, where's my damn story?
Probably later tonight or tomorrow.
:3 cool
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've posted most of these ideas before, but to get in my 2 cp in one place (this borrows from my homebrew fighter, but is simplified and condensed for general use):
FIGHTER
Good saves: Fort, Ref, Will
1: Combat Reflexes, feat aptitude, war master's edge +1
2: Bonus feat, bravery I
3: Mettle, personal weapon +1
4: Bonus feat, stamina I, strong stomach I
5: Battlefield control (10 ft.), war master's edge +2
6: Bonus feat, bravery II, onslaught of blows
7: Combat mobility, personal weapon +2
8: Bonus feat, stamina II
9: Battlefield control (15 ft.), war master's edge +3,
10: Bonus feat, bravery III, tactical commander
11: Personal weapon +3, warlord
12: Bonus feat, strong stomach II
13: Superior battlefield control (20 ft.), war master's edge +4
14: Bonus feat, bravery IV, cheat the fog of war
15: Indomitable will, personal weapon +5
16: Bonus feat, supreme vital strike
17: Battlefield control (25 ft.), war master's edge +5
18: Bonus feat, supreme warlord
19: Desperate resolve, personal weapon +6
20: Bonus feat
Feat Aptitude (Ex): When selecting a combat feat, the fighter can ignore one of the feat's prerequisites.
War Master's Edge (Ex): Combat is the fighter's stock in trade, and he's better at it than anyone. At 1st level, his training provides a +1 insight bonus to attacks, CMB, damage, initiative checks, and AC/CMB. In addition, his armor check penalty is reduced by 1 and the max Dex AC from armor increases by 1. The bonus provided by this ability increases as shown in the table.
Bravery (Ex): At 2nd level, the fighter is immune to effects that cause the shaken condition. For more severe fear, the effect is lessened by 1 step (cowering -> panicked -> frightened -> shaken). The severity is reduced by 2 steps at 6th level, by 3 steps at 10th level, and a fighter of 14th level or higher is immune to [fear] effects.
Mettle (Ex): As evasion, but applies to Fort/Will effects.
Personal Weapon (Su): At 3rd level, the fighter selects a single weapon (not type of weapon) at the start of each day. That weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus when wielded by the fighter. If already +1, the fighter can increase its enhancement bonus by +1 or cause it to gain a +1 equivalent weapon property. The additional enhancement bonus to this weapon improved as shown in the table.
Stamina (Ex): At 4th level, the fighter's endurance training renders him immune to effects that cause the fatigued condition. If he would normally be exhausted, he becomes fatigued instead. At 8th level he is immune to exhaustion.
Strong Stomach (Ex): A fighter is inured to the sight of blood and the stench of corpses on the battlefield. At 4th level he is immune to effects that cause the sickened condition; if nauseated, he is sickened instead. At 12th level he is immune to nausea.
Battlefield Control (Ex): At 5h level, the fighter gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. In addition, he can choose to reduce his movement speed by 5 ft. for one round in order to extend his threatened area by 5 ft. For every 4 levels above 5th, he can trade an additional 5 ft. (up to his maximum movement speed). Enemies who have not seen the fighter use this ability are not necessarily aware of it.
Onslaught of Blows (Ex): A fighter takes no penalty on iterative attacks (thus, a 16th level fighter attacks at +16/+16/+16/+16).
Combat Mobility (Ex): At 7th level, a fighter can take a full move and still full attack. Movement and attacks can be interspaced as the fighter sees fit, but all movement must be taken in 5-ft. increments. This ability also allows the fighter to make a full attack at the end of a charge.
Tactical Commander (Ex): Starting at 10th level, the fighter can spend a move action in order to grant allies who can see and hear him the benefits of his War Master’s Edge, but at only half his normal bonus.
Warlord (Ex): At 11th level, the fighter’s prowess and renown are is such that he can assemble an army eager to serve under him. This requires 1 week and provides personnel as if the fighter had the Leadership feat (if he or she already has the Leadership feat, the effects stack). The newly-assembled army remains until the purpose of assembling is fulfilled, or after 1 month of inactivity in any event.
Superior Battlefield Control (Ex): Starting at 13th level, as a free action the fighter can designate any portion of his threatened area as difficult terrain.
Cheat the Fog of War (Ex): At 14th level, the fighter’s instinctive awareness of tactics and battlefield positioning is unmatched. He can deduce which effects are illusory and which threats are real, even from magically-concealed enemies; this counts as true seeing, but is an extraordinary ability that cannot be dispelled. When faced with a projected image, the fighter can deduce the actual location of the caster.
Indomitable Will (Ex): A fighter of 15th level or higher under an ongoing [mind-affecting] effect may attempt an additional Will save each round to end the effect. If the effect does not normally allow a save, the fighter gains a Will save (DC 25) to end the effect.
Supreme Vital Strike (Ex): Starting at 16th level, as full round action the fighter can make a single melee or ranged weapon attack that deals base damage equal to the normal weapon base damage x his fighter level. Effects like lead blades, etc. follow the normal rules for adding multipliers (e.g., a 16th level fighter with a lead bladed longsword deals a base 17d8 damage with this attack).
Supreme Warlord (Ex): Starting at 18th level, opponents with a CR equal to half the fighter’s level or less must save vs. Will each round (DC 10 + the fighter’s level) spent in combat against him. Failure indicates that they are so awed by his prowess that they throw down their arms and surrender to him; if he or his companions continue to attack them, they flee if possible (a dishonorable fighter can use his battlefield control ability to impede their retreat, allowing them to be slaughtered). If their surrender is accepted, the fighter can spend a move action to recruit them to his side; this change of allegiance lasts for as long as they remain within his presence.
Desperate Resolve: Starting at 19th level, the fighter no longer automatically fails saves on a natural 1.
I've posted most of these ideas before, but to get in my 2 cp in one place (this borrows from my homebrew fighter, but is simplified and condensed for general use):
FIGHTER
** spoiler omitted **...
Soon to be appearing in Unchained 2 - Fighter Boogaloo
Supreme Warlord (Ex): Starting at 18th level, opponents with a CR equal to half the fighter’s level or less must save vs. Will each round (DC 10 + the fighter’s level) spent in combat against him. Failure indicates that they are so awed by his prowess that they throw down their arms and surrender to him; if he or his companions continue to attack them, they flee if possible (a dishonorable fighter can use his battlefield control ability to impede their retreat, allowing them to be slaughtered). If their surrender is accepted, the fighter can spend a move action to recruit them to his side; this change of allegiance lasts for as long as they remain within his presence.
Cool as this is, it would bug me in practice. This is a tool the fighter can use to get any minion he wants—even if he's a baby killer and he's fighting paladins (or clerics, or rogues, or a low-level fighter whose family has just been massacred by the Supreme Warlord), they'll be compelled to serve him loyally as long as he's around. At least with charm person it's magic and they can't help it—this to me just implies a weakness of character.
this to me just implies a weakness of character.
Compared to an 18th level fighter, everyone under 10th level has extreme weakness of character. He's literally sixteen times as powerful as they are.
Note that they might resent serving him, but do so only while he's on top of them -- there's nothing stopping them from deserting him as soon as the opportunity presents.
this to me just implies a weakness of character.Compared to an 18th level fighter, everyone under 10th level has extreme weakness of character. He's literally sixteen times as powerful as they are.
Note that they might resent serving him, but do so only while he's on top of them -- there's nothing stopping them from deserting him as soon as the opportunity presents.
I made it into an ability called awesome precence that figthers get at 8 and other martials get at 10 and it is usable only a few times a Day and only change attitude to friendly.
Edit:and i May remember the numbers wrong
I'm just saying that mundane mind control does not sit well with me. It doesn't exactly happen in existing literature and film—not to the hero.
I'm just saying that mundane mind control does not sit well with me. It doesn't exactly happen in existing literature and film—not to the hero.
he's a god amongst mere mortals to them, they're glamored by his presence. also i have seen it in older literature.
Older literature of that nature is rarely character-focused, so that explains it.
I don't remember the scene where Buffy bow downs and agrees to serve Glory, realizing she's out of her league. Was that in Season Six somehow? I kinda skimmed Season Six.
true
@ the edited in 2nd paragraph, buffy wasn't an 18th level fighter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
this to me just implies a weakness of character.Compared to an 18th level fighter, everyone under 10th level has extreme weakness of character. He's literally sixteen times as powerful as they are.
Note that they might resent serving him, but do so only while he's on top of them -- there's nothing stopping them from deserting him as soon as the opportunity presents.I made it into an ability called awesome precence that figthers get at 8 and other martials get at 10 and it is usable only a few times a Day and only change attitude to friendly.
Edit:and i May remember the numbers wrong
I did two things in this area.
Penultimate Marshal ability allows the fighter to use his BAB for his skill check with social skills. So, if he's got no bluff, diplomacy, Intimidate or Sense Motive, his check is still at BAB.
Secondly, he gains a bonus on contested skill checks against someone equal to the difference in their BAB. So if he's matching up against a lower level character AND a non-combatant, especially a spellcaster, he gains copious bonuses to his skill checks. In short, he'll probably always beat the wizard at chess.
Thirdly, Expertise and Bravery give bonuses on combat-related skills, including wargaming, and all mental-stat skills, respectively. For Rogues, this is a competency bonus coming from their sneak attack dice.
So, the bonuses aren't massive, but they do accumulate and allow the superior training of fighters to overcome the superior stats of those they are dealing with. The bard will probably have a huge charisma bonus over the fighter (+10 higher, likely), but with +5 to his check from BAB, +5 from Expertise, and +5 from Bravery, if they both have maxed out Diplomacy ranks...the fighter is going to win against his more cowardly and martially inept opponent handily, because he has Mad Skillz.
==Aelryinth
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It doesn't exactly happen in existing literature and film—not to the hero.
Edgar Rice Burroughs, Swords of Mars (1935). The Grandfather of Assassins was so awed by John Carter's prowess that he throws his sword at his feet in homage. Stuff like that happens ALL OVER the place.
My goodness. The Grandfather of Assassins is the hero of that novel? That's a bit more daring than I gave Burroughs credit for!
In seriousness, though, if the reverse had taken place and John Carter had been cowed by the higher-level Ur Jan, that would be different. But he didn't. The hero very rarely capitulates to the villain—that's reserved for a different kind of story.
true
@ the edited in 2nd paragraph, buffy wasn't an 18th level fighter.
You might want to reread my edit.
i'm affraid i don't understand what you're referencing Kobold(i saw no mention of buffy before that post, so i assumed it was a created point)
also, for the heroes to be effected by supreme warlord, you need to be level 9 or lower and fighting a level 18 or higher fighter...
KC, if you DM is throwing 18th level antagonists at your 9th level fighter, you have MUCH bigger problems than suspension of disbelief.
How many 9th level characters are ever in combat against 18th level enemies? If that happens the GM is trying to end the campaign regardless of what abilities his big bad fighter has.
I don't remember the scene where Buffy bow downs and agrees to serve Glory, realizing she's out of her league. Was that in Season Six somehow? I kinda skimmed Season Six.
Where does this imply that Buffy is an eighteenth level fighter?
also, for the heroes to be effected by supreme warlord, you need to be level 9 or lower and fighting a level 18 or higher fighter...
Yeah, that's the only reason I merely "don't care for" the idea, rather than "completely hate" it. In my games, NPCs are characters—side characters, but still characters. I don't want to have to change their personalities for the convenience of a high-level PC, and if an NPC is established as being willing to die for the chance to beat the PCs (or as being willing to die on the PCs' behalf), he's not going to give in just because a PC (or villain) has shown up to take him over and make him explain everything about his master's (or friends') weaknesses/fight alongside them against his former master (/friends). That requires a personality change.
If you want to play that kind of game, fine. But like I said, it would bug me.
I don't remember the scene where Buffy bow downs and agrees to serve Glory, realizing she's out of her league. Was that in Season Six somehow? I kinda skimmed Season Six.Where does this imply that Buffy is an eighteenth level fighter?
oh, derp, i see now. I don't know who glory is my brain kinda didn't associate it as a person. I swear I read it like 3 times.
Is Glory an 18th level Fighter? I don't watch Buffy but I was under the impression that most of her enemies use supernatural abilities or spellcasting.
This is an extremely tangential point, though; a high level Fighter being such a force of personality and a terror on the battlefield that lesser beings throw down their arms and surrender at his command sounds entirely within the flavor of the class to me.
Making the character Helpful actually works a lot better for me, the more I think about it. Helpful people still have things they won't do. They aren't Dominated, and can still have standards, That way, it's not, "Oh, please, let me help you set fire to my home and crops. Oh, is my wife bothering you? I'll just shove her back in that fire for you, boss. Oh, watch out, my son and daughter are trying to sneak away. You ordered me to shoot anyone who tries to escape, right? Let's do it."
Overall, I think Frightful Presence probably works better, though. Maybe allow forcing fealty if the enemies are not diametrically opposed to you—"Enemies with half your hit dice or less will surrender and willingly swear fealty, unless doing so is utterly against their nature—in this case, they will flee. This is a fear-based effect."
I'm OK with it working like Diplomacy or Intimidate (fighter's choice and/or circumstances) but being automatic, and resisted by on a level-based Will save -- instead of requiring an action for skill use and being dependent on a check (and action for skill use) on the fighter's part.
In any case, the ability is intended to:
1. Underline that your martial prowess is such that you don't even have to fight a lot of enemies (similar in narrative power to a caster bypassing encounters using spells); and
2. Extend the scope of your abilities beyond just killing things -- casters get summons and dominate spells; you get the ability to awe your martial inferiors.
I've posted most of these ideas before, but to get in my 2 cp in one place (this borrows from my homebrew fighter, but is simplified and condensed for general use):
FIGHTER
** spoiler omitted **...
I have to say I like a lot of this. My question, Kirth, is do you do anything for the fighter to resolve some of the other issues people have: rapid travel, enhanced movement, killing mountains, etc.
I recall you've mentioned raising armies and I believe rapid movement (animals or ships or whatever) for martials. Are those feats, or something the characters buy into, or something else?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
i solved rapid travel in my badass talent thing(just look through my threads) by giving them the shadowfax equivalent of mounts, moving 480 miles i think in a day/8 hours.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I recall you've mentioned raising armies and I believe rapid movement (animals or ships or whatever) for martials. Are those feats, or something the characters buy into, or something else?
Raising armies should be something a high-level fighter can just do, as a basic extension of his class.
For mobility, I allow fighters to get flying mounts, the same way druids and cavaliers do. Some people might prefer this to be a feat; for others, it might be handled differently (in my home game it's a talent they can select).
Even barring that, a high-level fighter should be able to commandeer military apparatus for his use: demanding the nation's fastest ship to carry him to the front, or borrowing one of the Royal Griffin Riders' fiercest steeds from the aerie, or whatever.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Isn't this kind of a contradiction? Oh well:
The rest of the undead, abominations, and other various monsters finally reacted to the threat that had seemingly burst in from nowhere. They surged seemingly at once, those who did not already surround Orusk rushed to take the fight to Evaly and Lesha. Or more precisely, they tried to.
A lesser devil was the first to draw close, its scraping steps tearing down the distances until it crossed an invisible line. An unspoken boundary that was being maintained by Evaly’s defensive stance. Her blade, Nimkiig, responded with a flash of lightning and a burst of light and the foul thing was neatly bisected, dying even as it fell to the black stones. Despite this death, the other fiends pressed onward spurred by their master’s command. The weakest among them fell instantly, quickly forming a ring of defeated foes that served to mark the outermost edge of the territory that Evaly had mercilessly usurped.
The stronger foes only made an additional step beyond that before joining their companions amongst the fallen. Even the strongest only manage to advance a single motion beyond even that before being struck down as though they were nothing but trees against an indeterminable number of lightning strikes. The final five feet of Evaly’s dominion were completely clear of enemies, an inviolable space against the churning mass of foes.
Orusk also was surrounded by waves of horrors, but unlike Evaly’s offensive defense he simply endured. Claws raked his skin, fangs tried crush his bones, swords, spears, arrows, fire and cold each in turn was wielded against him. Some blows missed their mark. Others simply failed to pierce the fur cloaked figure's flesh. Some wounds that were inflicted seemed to become merely scratches while others simply became fuel for the rage that had begun to smolder behind Orusk’s eyes. A few genuinely worthy foes struck true, only for their attacks to met with a crushing counterattack from the heavy club of wood.
Vas himself had yet to be noticed, despite being mostly real and so he slid around the oncoming enemies, a seemingly empty space amongst the charge. He was still watching Nerex, still trying to draw close. And he was the first to notice that Nerex had begun to clap his hands together.
“Most impressive. Given your skill, I do believe some formalities are in order.”, Nerex began calmly, inclining his head to concede some unmentioned point. “Let’s see, first congratulations on making it this far. Moving on to introductions…”
“Come over here I’ll introduce my club to your face.”, Orusk roared despite being still being assaulted from all sides. Nerex stopped at that pausing to give Orusk the full weight of his attention.
“Didn’t your mother ever teach you any manners?”, Nerex said. A moment later he appeared to have been stuck by some afterthought, gave it serious consideration and continued on. “In the not unlikely event I killed your mother and you’re here for revenge, never mind your manners, I take full responsibility. Well then, I do hope you will all forgive me if I skip to the part where I kill you.”
Vas watched as Nerex drew once more on the rod he carried channeling a spell of unbelievable power. Vas watched as it great strands of power were cast off from Nerex’s body even as most of the magical energy was poured into his own body. Then Vas saw Nerex’s form grow hazy and blur moving seemingly instantly all across the room. And then not even a fraction of a second later, he had returned to where he stood as though he had never moved at all.
There was one other difference Vas noticed. Hanging in the sky, seemingly suspended were pure white sheets parchment. Vas could See the energy stored inside each page though. A vast amount of power that had been compressed to fit the paper’s form. He knew that he did not have time to dodge, time to hide, or time to flee. And so he made himself less real. Far less real. In an instant, he had shed nearly all of his existence, becoming merely an illusion.
Even as Vas became nothing more than a shadow on a cave wall, Evaly reacted. She reached Lesha’s side and placed her great mirror of ice in front of Lesha’s body while the rest of her armor plated body guarded Lesha’s back. She struck a stance of absolute defense even as a hideous winged demon loosed a pulse of magic that rushed out across the area.
Once the pulse reached the strips of parchment, the reaction was immediate. The energy inside each paper unraveled and then exploded outward in burst of invisible but overwhelmingly powerful force. Each one of the countless magical scripts detonated at the same time, the force of each adding to the others until it became a nearly unstoppable force.
Arrayed against this nearly unstoppable force, was the practically immovable object that was the flawless protective stance adopted by Evaly and bestowed upon Lesha. The crushing force bore down on everything in the area, pressing corpses completely flat against the black stone floor and reducing to paste any of the monstrosities that remained in the area.
What happened when the massive bursts of force fell upon Evaly can be summarized easily. The object won. Nearly unstoppable force met practically immovable object and the force stopped before the object moved. Wave after wave of force crashed upon the wall of Evaly’s impervious defense and each time they were rebuffed, reduced to nothing more than a sensation of pressure.
I honestly don't think this is possible. An 18th level caster has the ability to fly high into the heavens, exist on other planes in inhospitable conditions, etc.
Unless the 4 martials can take the caster by surprise or somehow incapacitate him from casting, I think this is impossible.
On the note of taking him by surprise... well if he's a true high level caster, he won't be taken by surprise... anything the martials do will be under his watchful eye and that of his minions.
Mechanically, this is not possible.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
you're not limited by pathfinder mechanics in this thread, except for what the caster can do.
Ah ok I clearly should have read more closely. :P
Indeed; the wizard casting Overland Flight doesn't mean much if the Monk can High Jump into the air, grapple him, and suplex that m*#*!%!$%!~$ (taking no damage himself because he landed on top of the wizard, of course) all in a single turn.
or just punch him magic so hard it broke. *shurg*
edit: actually here's my taker on a "non-wuxia monk"
they basically train to condition themselves and react to everything, this includes magic, in other words not only do they have insane saves they also can directly attack supernatural forces due to their focused mind and training. they can attack ghosts, they can attack spells, they can punch holes between dimensions to attack outsiders too.
You know what would be cool for a non-wuxia martial, something similair to the Templar in Dragon Age Age. They are very powerful Anti Mages who are skilled at disabling all magics around them and then emitting auras to strengthen them and their allies. They are sort of magic but not really.
The Real Life examples on that trope page are pretty good, actually.
You know what would be cool for a non-wuxia martial, something similair to the Templar in Dragon Age Age. They are very powerful Anti Mages who are skilled at disabling all magics around them and then emitting auras to strengthen them and their allies. They are sort of magic but not really.
great now in the next week i'm going to write up a templar class, see what you made me do?
Who said they were limits? I just said they were pretty good. Martials oughta get them some of that stuff.
As for your recommendation, animation and comics tend to produce the cartooniest results of the lot. You'll want to head to one of the other "Let's balance out martials" threads for that.
I hope you know I'm totally over here facepalming KC.
I don't, actually. It's the internet. But your derision is noted and dismissed.
The sad fact of this thread is most of the people posting on it don't actually believe in the message. This is, of course, because most of the people who call things "wuxia" are really just against fighters getting new features at all, so they don't post here. It's basically me, Orf, and people practicing one of the few examples of calling something "wrongbadfun" that still seems to be popular on this site: Making fun of people who like touches of realism in their fantasy.
I think it's more derision at the idea than the person KC.
I never said it was personal (though derision towards an idea someone just brought up always will be, a little bit). That's part of the reason I edited out "rude". :P
Just a heads up probably something new tonight or tomorrow (so realistically tomorrow). Sidenote: Is anyone else still using this thread?
I thought about doing a Forsaken Fighter/Rogue write-up, but a bunch of anti-magical guys who shut down dimensional hijinks, see through illusions, ground fliers, smack away summoned creatures, and can cut through magic spells really tramples wizards, so I didn't really bother. :)
==Aelryinth
Spellcasters are kind of supposed to be better at some things than the martials—we aren't trying to replace the caster, just put the martial on the same playing field.
There's a difference between a guy using magic to break physics and a guy breaking physics "just 'cause".
I would rather the martial get his own style, rather than just resorting to the fighter equivalent of "Psionic Sleep", "Psionic Fireball", etc. :P
The fact is, the wizard is the most flexible class in the game. Each day he can fill a different "wizard role" (which is worth multiple normal roles). We can't compete with that. Maybe the Martial Master should be able to, but the rest? Making every class as versatile as the wizard really will make every class the same.
Martials should be worse at the wizard in some areas—just as the way we craft them should make them better than the wizard in others. If we aren't even willing to accept that, we've really lost sight of the whole point of a "balanced" system.
EDIT: To put it another way, the goal of this thread shouldn't be "Make it so martials can replace casters just like casters replace martials." The goal should be, "Make it so nobody can replace anybody perfectly and they all fulfill their own roles."