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jtaylor, it's been a couple weeks since this thread was last visited. How about, with a fresh mind, you reread the comments others made last time. Perhaps the break will prove helpful in trying to understand the points we've been expressing.
You have several experienced, highly regarded GMs all telling you the same thing. Perhaps there's a reason for that.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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jtaylor, the answer has been given to you several times. You don't seem to be hearing it.
As a GM, you are expected to try to follow all the rules.
But we expect that from time to time, GM's will screw up. And it just isn't a big deal. Try harder next time.
It's a game, we are all here to have fun, and as long as no one lost a character, no one cares enough to worry about sanctioning anyone.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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You believe that changing the location of the final encounter is a significant change. What makes it significant?
Here are some things that might change: moving an encounter from a large room to a small room might interfere with some charge lanes. If the party includes a mounted PC who wants to charge, it's significant.
Moving an encounter from a room with no furniture to a room with a priceless and fragile tapestry might make area-effect fire spells more difficult. If the party includes a fire sorcerer, that might be significant.
Moving an encounter from an area with high winds and rain to an indoor room might make it easier for archers. If the paty has any archery characters, that might be significant.
Moving the encounter from one big room to another big room is probably not significant. Moving an encounter from a hillside to a forest clearing is probably not significant. Moving an encounter from the center of an arena to one end of the same arena is probably not significant.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Let me give you an example.
I played with a Gm who, one night, read us the adventure background, instead of the briefing. As a result, when we started the mission, we knew everything that had happened up to that point, but didn't have any clue what we had been sent to do. It was a really surreal and frustrating night, since we kept discovering things we already knew, but kept wandering around wondering what we should do next.
I decided never to play at that person's table again (this was the third scenario they had messed up.) and went on with life. (And made sure I got a chance to GM the scenarios he messed up so I could see how they should go.)
Yeah, I could have reported them, maybe got those chronicles annulled so that I could play them again. Made a lot of work for everyone. But it wouldn't have made anyone happier, and it isn't worth the work for anyone involved.
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@"Taja the Barbarian"
Can(defined as able or allowed according to Society rules) a GM move the final encounter from one specific area to another specific area without any input/decisions/etc from the players?
I only used an example as to clarify what I meant moving the final encounter was. I not concern why this GM did it. I am only concern if it can be done or not, so that I know what I can do as a GM.
This is where the disconnect from what you are asking and the answer you are being given happens. The answer is highly dependent on context.
In general as simply stated as possible, no a gm cannot change a scenario. (Unless something is negated/made impossible by player action) In practice, this second part comes up most often for tactics, but quite possibly the location of a fight.
I can give an example of one of the few times I've seen this happen. In a scenario, the final set of encounters happens in a house that is the last location you go to investigate. Some investigation happens. There is an encounter on the second floor (meant to be after some other stuff). A large part of the investigation was skipped and entrance was made directly into this rooms encounter (via some fly spells and other things). However, the enemies stats included a very high perception score and notes about them giving warning to other enemies in the area and hiding behind curtains to surprise the players. The creatures made perception check to notice the players (rolling high with high mods helps) so the GM inverted the floors moved the combat to a very similar space on the opposite floor to give the enemy time to follow the written tactics. (On the other hand had the creatures not noticed the players, this would not have happened, the players would have had the advantage of surprise through actually really good planning).
Is this following the scenario exactly - no. Is it breaking the rules - I don't think so. This feels to me like a situation of the GM trying to make the scenario fit the unintended actions of the players. I had fun at the table, I think it fit the scenarios feel/intent. I haven't heard any complaints about it including from at least one other player who had prepped the scenario. So as with many things in PFS, YMMV. I am very hesitant to change anything, but there are times where as a GM you are required to use your best judgement. I'm not sure if this helps any but I hope it does.
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I admit I had forgotten to address your clarification about changes due to no player input. But you are looking for a simple check the box answer to a question that simply doesn't have one. Then to further get at the simple answer, you've tried to isolate the question to a situation in a vacuum (or made it into a friction-less spherical cow in a vacuum). The only possibility I can come up with off the top of my head that fits your criteria and is going to be at least nearly univerisally accepted is the GM making a mistake (either mis-running something (it happens) or trying to fix a previous error (again it can happen)) . Everything that happens in a scenario is the interaction of player and GM. Player input affects everything. As has been said throughout the other comments, if the GM is making changes for any other reason, it's at best a questionable choice and at worst out right cheating. So no there is no simple answer, the simplest answer is no don't change anything.
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The reason I pulling it into a vacuum is because that is the way the example went down. That partly why I am confused. Many people telling me that context matters, but won't commit when context is removed or fully define that context.
I admit you are one of those trying, but many others aren't willing to for reasons that seem to overshadow getting a true answer.
I used your comment to clearly show how I can be confused about the answers I am being given. I understand that straight up yes or no is hard to come by, but in a general sense I thought that I could get such an answer. I know there is many gray areas while GMing, but I thought there might be certain lines you just don't cross or you lose player trust in the Society.
The most general answer is no.
Understand I didn't walk away with nothing with this whole thread. This weekend I helped , with 2 other GMs, a new GM get some experience running Society, so that he be willing to run on our regular nights. Our regular nights can be very stressful, because we have many new players showing up from around the area. When he asked questions about changing maps, because one was very difficult to draw, I informed him it was okay as long as it didn't unfairly burden the players. I am not sure if that is the correct advice, but seemed so from what I obtained from this thread.
But this is a good example of why a lot of us hedge our bets with our comments (including me). I said I couldn't come up with an example of the gm changing a location without a mistake that didn't involve player interaction, and have said not to do it for any other reason. Yet here you give a great example of why some times locations could be technically changed (or at least substituted) that is not perfect, but I would say at least generally accepted. (And yes I would have said the same thing)
As for a line. If you know the rule/ruling/clarification follow it. (Do your best to) run as written. Make it the best experience you can. Don't be a jerk. (And a personal one (though many others have it too) if you make a mistake in the player's favor let it stand, if it's against the players do your best to correct it)
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You believe that changing the location of the final encounter is a significant change. What makes it significant?
Here are some things that might change: moving an encounter from a large room to a small room might interfere with some charge lanes. If the party includes a mounted PC who wants to charge, it's significant.
Moving an encounter from a room with no furniture to a room with a priceless and fragile tapestry might make area-effect fire spells more difficult. If the party includes a fire sorcerer, that might be significant.
Moving an encounter from an area with high winds and rain to an indoor room might make it easier for archers. If the paty has any archery characters, that might be significant.
Moving the encounter from one big room to another big room is probably not significant. Moving an encounter from a hillside to a forest clearing is probably not significant. Moving an encounter from the center of an arena to one end of the same arena is probably not significant.
Chris, I can say with certainty, having GM'd this twice and played it once, that relocating the encounter's location is a major change to the scenario that invalidates most of the encounters throughout the scenario completely.
Literally every piece of this scenario sets up and changes the final encounter.
To attempt another answer of the question:
For this scenario specifically, if everything was done 'by the rails' and 'as written' an arbitrary change of the final encounter would seem completely wrong to me.
On the other hand, I was not at the table and have not talked with the GM. Perhaps he saw something or interpreted something differently. Perhaps he misunderstood the encounter. Perhaps he decided he didn't like the final encounter and changed it.
If I had all of the details, I would be able to pass judgement on the situations above, saying if they were right or wrong. As it stands, I was not at the table and cannot do so. Generally, I would lean toward NOT changing the final encounter in this particular situation without catastrophic rail-breaking by the PCs.
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I admit I had forgotten to address your clarification about changes due to no player input. But you are looking for a simple check the box answer to a question that simply doesn't have one. Then to further get at the simple answer, you've tried to isolate the question to a situation in a vacuum (or made it into a friction-less spherical cow in a vacuum). The only possibility I can come up with off the top of my head that fits your criteria and is going to be at least nearly univerisally accepted is the GM making a mistake (either mis-running something (it happens) or trying to fix a previous error (again it can happen)) . Everything that happens in a scenario is the interaction of player and GM. Player input affects everything. As has been said throughout the other comments, if the GM is making changes for any other reason, it's at best a questionable choice and at worst out right cheating. So no there is no simple answer, the simplest answer is no don't change anything.
The reason I pulling it into a vacuum is because that is the way the example went down. That partly why I am confused. Many people telling me that context matters, but won't commit when context is removed or fully define that context.
I admit you are one of those trying, but many others aren't willing to for reasons that seem to overshadow getting a true answer.
I used your comment to clearly show how I can be confused about the answers I am being given. I understand that straight up yes or no is hard to come by, but in a general sense I thought that I could get such an answer. I know there is many gray areas while GMing, but I thought there might be certain lines you just don't cross or you lose player trust in the Society.
Understand I didn't walk away with nothing with this whole thread. This weekend I helped , with 2 other GMs, a new GM get some experience running Society, so that he be willing to run on our regular nights. Our regular nights can be very...
If you go back and reread my posts, I've done exactly as you asked.
To paraphrase:
In a vacuum, GMs should change nothing, but mistakes happen. We are all human.
In the real world, with infinite input from the players by way of thier actions, changes can, will, and may need to change. It's all contextual and circumstantial.
Hope that helps.
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@"Taja the Barbarian"
Yes I get that if the players do something than a GM might need to make a change as a reaction.
That isn't my question, nor has it been.
I not sure how can I make it any clearer, but I will.
Can(defined as able or allowed according to Society rules) a GM move the final encounter from one specific area to another specific area without any input/decisions/etc from the players?
I only used an example as to clarify what I meant moving the final encounter was. I not concern why this GM did it. I am only concern if it can be done or not, so that I know what I can do as a GM.
Actually, the question is 'May a GM move the final encounter...' ('can' refers to capability while 'may' refers to permission: It's a minor technicality that no one really cares about, but 'can I shoot that man' and 'may I shoot that man' are very different questions)
Question: May a GM move the final encounter?
Answer: Only if necessary.
Question: What constitutes 'necessary'
Answer: Um, couldn't you just ask about something simple like the meaning of life???
As I mentioned in my post, there are judgement calls a GM has to make: Technically, there are a nearly infinite number of ways an adventure can go, and the rules can only cover the most likely scenarios. For all the rest, the GM has to improvise. Generally speaking, the question the GM should probably ask himself/herself are:
'Is this a circumstance the author probably didn't take into consideration?'
- Is the session running out of time (late start, new player orientation, external distractions, or just general slow play)?
- Did the players take a completely unexpected course of action that is not covered in the tactics?
- NOT Are the PCs just annoying me so much that I want them dead
- NOT Are the PCs retreating from the dungeon before I get to play the fun BBEG?
'Is making this change the less evil option?'
- Will this action solve more issues than it causes?
- Could a less drastic option achieve the same results?
- Is allowing the mission to fail acceptable?
If you are looking for 'hard and fast' rules, you're not going to find them here. There's a reason most games have some variant on 'don't be afraid to cheat if necessary' in their game master guides: The GM is not playing against the players and is expected to take a broader view of the game and have wide authority to act accordingly. PFS holds closer to the RAW than home campaigns, but GMs are still expected to exercise their best judgement as needed.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Can people drive five miles an hour over the speed limit?
Short answer: No :)
Long answer: I actually know someone who got a ticket for speeding (5 miles over the limit) and for obstructing traffic by driving to slow (Everyone else was driving 10 miles over the limit...)
Some times you are just in the wrong place when someone is having a bad day.
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One should not take a single comment as representative of the community as a whole.
Especially since several posts before this one did answer the question quite succinctly.
At this point, I'm not sure what he wants to hear if he feels we haven't answered his question.
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Can people drive five miles an hour over the speed limit?This response shows no relevance to the topic at hand.
It has every relevance to the topic at hand.
Can you technically drive 5 miles over the limit? Yes, you can physically put your foot to the gas and drive faster. No. Its not legal... usually though certain circumstances may warrant it. Is anyone going to do anything about it? Not unless you crash. Probably not even if you crash.
If that answer looks familiar, its because its the exact same answer to your question.
This response only shows that this community is unwilling to work out issues that come up.
What would a willingness to work it out look like to you? Tar and feather the DM who dared to deviate from the module?
Its not a big deal. If you want people to treat it like a big deal, you're out of luck.
No one is going to invalidate a session over a change that minor. They happen all of the time.
This comment also shows that this community is unwilling to clearly support newer people in this community.
15 people have been willing to respond to you, repeatedly, despite constant harping on things that have already been addressed and completely ignoring the answers you've been given.
This is exclusive behavior hiding behind attempting to be a joke.
Yeah, I'm about as far out of "the club" as you can get here. Nothing exclusive about it.
Remember what is clear to you is not always clear to everyone else.
It cannot get any clearer. If you don't understand the answers you've gotten you're going to have to ask a friend that knows how to phrase things for you to read them and put it in terms you can understand. No one here has any idea whats going to make sense to you or what you're not getting about the answers.
If you have this idea that PFS is an ultrastrict, 100% by the official rules and there is no variance or deviation from them... ditch that idea quickly. Its very much not the case. The only qualification to DM is a PFS number. People are going to vary considerably in rules knowledge, skill level, knowledge of the scenario, prepardness and a thousand other things that will make things go off model.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Actually, the question is 'May a GM move the final encounter...' ('can' refers to capability while 'may' refers to permission: It's a minor technicality that no one really cares about, but 'can I shoot that man' and 'may I shoot that man' are very different questions)
"Can" is the right question. Due the fact if I can't do it, and I do it then invalidate the session. This is along the lines of a player buying equipment they can't have invalidating their character till they fix it. This is not a "May I" question at all.
Sorry, we've misunderstood.
The answer is unambiguously yes. Of course he can.
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Can people drive five miles an hour over the speed limit?Beautiful kōan.
Doesn't work as well when you have to explain the jokeKoan
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Can people drive five miles an hour over the speed limit?Beautiful kōan.
How have I never known that's what it was called? Learn something new every day.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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How have I never known that's what it was called? Learn something new every day.Can people drive five miles an hour over the speed limit?Beautiful kōan.
Apparently you don't play enough gnome Ki-users
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Apparently you don't play enough gnome Ki-usersHow have I never known that's what it was called? Learn something new every day.Can people drive five miles an hour over the speed limit?Beautiful kōan.
Apparently not (probably because I don't own that book).
Huh. What a weird little feat. No limitations on what creatures it works on...
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Apparently you don't play enough gnome Ki-usersHow have I never known that's what it was called? Learn something new every day.Can people drive five miles an hour over the speed limit?Beautiful kōan.Apparently not (probably because I don't own that book).
Huh. What a weird little feat. No limitations on what creatures it works on...
Yup. It doesn't even have to speak your language. (Although I have vague recollections of someone arguing that since the effect only occurs if the creature fails it's check, if it can't make a check (doesn't speak your language, so it can't make a sense motive to understand your question) it has no effect.)
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Apparently you don't play enough gnome Ki-usersHow have I never known that's what it was called? Learn something new every day.Can people drive five miles an hour over the speed limit?Beautiful kōan.Apparently not (probably because I don't own that book).
Huh. What a weird little feat. No limitations on what creatures it works on...
It's totally ridiculous feat. Also see clarification here.
Maybe you'll get to meet my Gnomish Champion of Irori who has it. (I have been strongly considering retraining out of it).
My favorite Golarion Koan, Must Rovagug devour himself to succeed?
Also, I play it as though it were language dependent.
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Nope, too late guys, this thread is now about Koans. Sorry, thanks for playing! The contest is on! Who can come up with the best Golarion Koan! Prize* to the winner! Pirate Rob is strongly in the lead!
*Pending my disposition at the end of the contest, which ends when I arbitrarily decide to end it, definitely before Gencon. Prize may range from a internet high-five to a drink at Gencon (if the lucky winner is attending) or something else! It's a secret to everyone, including me. Contest** is limited to inhabitants of the continental United States only!***
**Contest may be too strong of a word.
***Just kidding! Everyone can be a winner here!
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Coincidentally, one of the most recently-released PFS scenarios talks about changing the location of the final encounter. This is in response to the scenario potentially going in an unusual direction, but the advice from the text seems to indicate this is 'one of those things' rather than a major issue to be avoided if at all possible.
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It sounds like you have a multi-layered question, which needed serious rewording to get an answer that makes sense to both sides.
Q1) Can a GM move the location of an encounter, whether it is the final encounter or any other encounter, in a PFS scenario?
A1) Yes, a GM can move an encounter location.
Q2) Should a GM move the location of an encounter in a PFS scenario?
A2) That one is much more of a judgement call, requiring knowledge of what events, both on and off the railroad, occurred during the scenario thus far. Sometimes, PCs do things that cause things to happen some place besides where the author and editor may of envisioned them happening.
Even if you have prepared and run the scenario multiple times, you might have been distracted when one of the other players did something that caused the NPCs to adjust. Heck, even as a GM, if the chaos factor gets too high, you may miss one of the players asking or doing something important.
Q3) How do I handle a post that I feel is offensive?
A3) First, do not reply. If you feel that the post is offensive, and breaks the forum rules, click on the FLAG button on the right at the top of the offensive post.
This opens up a drop-down menu on the left, under the poster's name, with several options for why you are flagging the post. Choose the appropriate reason, then just skip on past that post.
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One should not take a single comment as representative of the community as a whole.Especially since several posts before this one did answer the question quite succinctly.
At this point, I'm not sure what he wants to hear if he feels we haven't answered his question.
I was responding to that individual who made the post. That comment to reflects on the community.
I tried several times to clarify what I am looking for. If you feel you answered the question, then I haven't argued with you. Again I been only responding to individual posts.
Remember what is clear to you is not clear to everyone. I get to decide when I am clear on how to handle the issue, not you.
Yes, but we get to decide when attempting to make it clear to you is a lost cause. Many people have tried very hard to give you as earnest and clear an answer as they can. Yet it still isn't sufficiently clear to you. They are trying but they really do not know what you want so they are becoming frustrated. That frustration can take the form of the humor, jibes and derailments exhibited in this thread. Many of the people who have responded to you are experienced PFS GMs who have a lot of experience explaining things to newbs. But even their experience seems to be failing here. There is only so much we can be expected to do. And casting aspersions upon a community that is honestly trying to help you but has clearly reached its wits end in attempting to do so isn't going to help anyone.