Hello there! My group is going to start Carrion Crown very soon, but due to some IRL troubles we had to replace a couple of players, so now we're down to a 3 man party plus an additional fourth player every now and again. Currently we have a Dhampir Kinslayer Inquisitor (going jack-of-all-trades with skills and all apart from the excellent Undead killing abilities), as well as a Ranger (no idea the exact build, but most likely ranged, not TWF).
Our third player will join us in a few days to discuss our party and the AP and all that, but he's new to Pathfinder so I thought it would be a good idea to have some suggestions lined up. I know the gist of it, I get what CC is all about, and I definitely get the need for positive energy stuff in the beginning, but I don't want to force the new guy to play Cleric or some such. So help me out guys, please, and suggest non-cleric classes to fill out the party listed above (spoiler free, of course)!
For now I was thinking we could use a bard, both for the trapfinding and the diplomacy, plus the knowledge won't hurt, but it's a bit underwhelming to play a bard the first time unless it's really what you want. Any other ideas? [Oh yeah, and we will most likely have a 4th player join in every now and again, so some suggestions for that would be nice, but the 3 man core needs to be solid enough to work on its own.] Thanks in advance!
Oradin for frontline and healing. Let the Inquisitor worry about the skilly stuff.
Alternately, a Seeker Sorceror since you completely lack arcane casting.
Oradin for frontline and healing. Let the Inquisitor worry about the skilly stuff.
Alternately, a Seeker Sorceror since you completely lack arcane casting.
The Oradin seems too... gimicky for a new player, honestly. And it feels like it's not much better than a Cleric in terms of forcing him to do the job needed most for the AP. The Seeker Sorcerer sounds cool, though. I'll definitely suggest that if he wants to go the caster route. Thanks for the help!
My general answer is when in doubt, go with a bard. And that is a pretty good answer here too.
With a 3 man party I generally prefer 3 versatile characters rather than 3 specialists (a 4 person party, 3 specialists and a versitile is pretty good, but you don't want to lose a whole specialty if someone goes down) and Bard fits that well.
The inquisitor and the bard, and eventually the Ranger will all have access to some healing magic, so that that shouldn't be much a of a problem.
The other option that isn't bad, and is similar in range but I think weaker in terms of strengthening the team, would be an alchemist.
My general answer is when in doubt, go with a bard. And that is a pretty good answer here too.
With a 3 man party I generally prefer 3 versatile characters rather than 3 specialists (a 4 person party, 3 specialists and a versitile is pretty good, but you don't want to lose a whole specialty if someone goes down) and Bard fits that well.
The inquisitor and the bard, and eventually the Ranger will all have access to some healing magic, so that that shouldn't be much a of a problem.
The other option that isn't bad, and is similar in range but I think weaker in terms of strengthening the team, would be an alchemist.
Yep, bard was my thought as well, but it really depends on the idea a new player has about Pathfinder and similar games. For many, a bard just isn't heroic enough, it's not what they expect from an adventurer - at least from the first game. But in any case, it will definitely be my first suggestion, thanks!
Can I ask for some specific advice as to what type of Bard would be best? Not so much in terms of archetype, but in terms of combat focus? Of course presuming you know Carrion Crown well enough to help me our with specific advice. In any case, thanks for the tips!
I see two different issues at play - is he a new player to RPGs as a whole, or just to the Pathfinder system?
New player - I wouldn't ask a new player to be the party face, and most of the classes require some time to get used to, not to mention learning the basic rules.
New to Pathfinder - Ok, you can be the face if you want. Still have to learn the ins and outs of the system, but that's easier if you have some background in other systems. You find your mental parallels.
So...bard...sure. Pretty solid choice, really, and there are multiple archetypes that would work well. Except of course for the entire section of their spell selection that's mind-affecting. Still, other than that, it's a good option.
Paladin would be a good plan, oracle could be better, but maybe not for a totally new player. Multiclassing them (born_of_fire's suggestion), while a very good option, could be very confusing for a newbie.
Shaman could also be a really good choice, but again it depends on how new of a player we're really talking about here.
Edit: Specific combat advice - you've already got a ranged spec ranger and an inquisitor...if you're going bard you should probably focus on buffing and light melee support. Make the other two as effective as possible, bard gets a couple shots in when and where possible without getting cut off or put on an island to be surrounded.
I see two different issues at play - is he a new player to RPGs as a whole, or just to the Pathfinder system?
New player - I wouldn't ask a new player to be the party face, and most of the classes require some time to get used to, not to mention learning the basic rules.
New to Pathfinder - Ok, you can be the face if you want. Still have to learn the ins and outs of the system, but that's easier if you have some background in other systems. You find your mental parallels.
So...bard...sure. Pretty solid choice, really, and there are multiple archetypes that would work well. Except of course for the entire section of their spell selection that's mind-affecting. Still, other than that, it's a good option.
Paladin would be a good plan, oracle could be better, but maybe not for a totally new player. Multiclassing them (born_of_fire's suggestion), while a very good option, could be very confusing for a newbie.
Shaman could also be a really good choice, but again it depends on how new of a player we're really talking about here.
(Sadly for this discussion) yes, he's entirely new to Pen&Paper RPGs of any kind. He is, however, an avid video game player (like all of the group), and while I don't know for sure, it's more likely than not that he played old-school RPGs in the line of Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, NWN, and all that. In any case, he'll have little trouble adapting to the system and the rules, but at the end of the day he's still new.
I'm not that worried about the party face part, though, as the Inquisitor can take care of it for the first few levels while he gets a hang of the system. What I'm most concerned here is suggesting a class that is at the same time fun to play and simple to learn for a new player, but also above average in terms of efficiency specifically for the Carrion Crown scenario. In short, he should feel like he has an impact on the game.
I'm sure I can find some Bard build to recommend that works with the Undead setting (Dirge Bard is a thing if I remember right?), but I'd love to have a few more suggestions apart from that, in case he doesn't like it. What else works in this - rather specific - situation we're in?
Sure, there's dirge bard, but there's also archivist, archaeologist, arcane duelist, magician and several others that would find a nice fit. Oracle also has several mysteries that would fit nicely.
I think with the bard the question is how much group support will the player want to do versus how much is needed. If the new player would rather go something more personal like archaeologist (inspire courage replaced by a self-buff rather than a group buff) then it may be up to the inquisitor to throw out a few more buffs. But the bard archaeologist is a great Indiana Jones.
I also would love to mention the magus as a great option for a 3-man party, but I really don't think the mechanics of that class should be thrown at a new player.
Sure, there's dirge bard, but there's also archivist, archaeologist, arcane duelist, magician and several others that would find a nice fit. Oracle also has several mysteries that would fit nicely.
I think with the bard the question is how much group support will the player want to do versus how much is needed. If the new player would rather go something more personal like archaeologist (inspire courage replaced by a self-buff rather than a group buff) then it may be up to the inquisitor to throw out a few more buffs. But the bard archaeologist is a great Indiana Jones.
I also would love to mention the magus as a great option for a 3-man party, but I really don't think the mechanics of that class should be thrown at a new player.
Yeah, the Magus is such a sweet class, and it sounds amazing when a player first hears about it, but I also believe it's a bit too much to throw at the new guys. Will see, if he really like the sound of it, and it's something he'd like to do, we'll just do our best to help him along. If not, Bard looks more and more likely.
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First time I ever played Pathfinder was Carrion Crown, and I was the bard of the party. I did all the face stuff and honestly I think I was rather great. Book 2 of this is as far as we got and a bard can really shine there. But yeah, since this guy is new, and he might not take to the face position right off the bat. Honestly though, another fun class that I have played in the past is Warpriest. It is the Fighter-Cleric hybrid class and it does not require being a face though one can build their character to do that. It is a combat class that allows for being a healer as well. By the time you are at the end of book 1 a Warpriest can do just about as much as a cleric while still being more interesting and all around fun character.
Now, seeing as you are only going with 3 regular characters and 1 part time, I might be misinterpreting what was posted so forgive me, I would want to use as broad a scope of characters as possible and not be so specialized. An Unchained Rogue would make a great skill monkey and a perfect face if need be, and could devastate with sneak attack. Any dedicated healer class be it Cleric, Warpriest, or even a Paladin would work. They provide healing and can be walls of heavy armor and smash anything in front of them. These classes besides being great healers are also good fighters. Finally I would recommend a dedicated front-line mane. Fighter, Barbarian (Unchained or not), Unchained Monk, Bloodrager, Brawler, or even a Swashbuckler would be great. They could stand on the front line and take anything out. As for the fourth floater, I would go with an arcane caster. Any of the classes would work, but I like Bards myself. They are versatile and are Jacks of all trades. Though any caster that can either rain down destruction from the back or can buff the front line would be great. And as a floater this caster, which are all the more squishy and vulnerable of characters, would be able to level up with the group while not having to be risked so much in combat.
Anyway sorry for rambling so much. Honestly you picked an amazing game to introduce a new player in. Wish my group had not fallen so much apart after book 2. Would love to keep playing this with my first ever character. Anyway, good luck and good gaming.
Arcanist. You can never go wrong with more arcanist.
Sorcerer is the best class for newbies, bar none. Blasters are VERY GOOD in this AP up to the end of the second book, but even then they have their own niche (slowing constructs). Lots of DR and immunities in this, so blasting comes very handy.
Arcane Bloodline works well enough, otherwise I like Celestial too.
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Shaman
or
Necromancer Wizard
I personally like the Necromancer Wizard...my favorite and in CC it would be fun to take control over some of the undead they throw at you. Command Undead is a powerful spell and getting it level 2 spells it can net you some nice things early. Plenty of juicy story with the Whispering Way involved.
First time I ever played Pathfinder was Carrion Crown, and I was the bard of the party. I did all the face stuff and honestly I think I was rather great. Book 2 of this is as far as we got and a bard can really shine there. But yeah, since this guy is new, and he might not take to the face position right off the bat. Honestly though, another fun class that I have played in the past is Warpriest. It is the Fighter-Cleric hybrid class and it does not require being a face though one can build their character to do that. It is a combat class that allows for being a healer as well. By the time you are at the end of book 1 a Warpriest can do just about as much as a cleric while still being more interesting and all around fun character.
Now, seeing as you are only going with 3 regular characters and 1 part time, I might be misinterpreting what was posted so forgive me, I would want to use as broad a scope of characters as possible and not be so specialized. An Unchained Rogue would make a great skill monkey and a perfect face if need be, and could devastate with sneak attack. Any dedicated healer class be it Cleric, Warpriest, or even a Paladin would work. They provide healing and can be walls of heavy armor and smash anything in front of them. These classes besides being great healers are also good fighters. Finally I would recommend a dedicated front-line mane. Fighter, Barbarian (Unchained or not), Unchained Monk, Bloodrager, Brawler, or even a Swashbuckler would be great. They could stand on the front line and take anything out. As for the fourth floater, I would go with an arcane caster. Any of the classes would work, but I like Bards myself. They are versatile and are Jacks of all trades. Though any caster that can either rain down destruction from the back or can buff the front line would be great. And as a floater this caster, which are all the more squishy and vulnerable of characters, would be able to level up with the group while not having to be risked so much in combat.
Anyway...
Thank you very much for the long and heartfelt reply! I'll take your advice to heart and suggest those classes you mentioned.
I think what you need is dragon disciple and Eldritch knight character. You need at least some arcane in there and skills are covered say maybe mouth so a sorcerer with those two prestige classes is what id suggest. At the start of the game meta magic the heck out of magic missile or burning hands so he can fire from the back and put a longspear in his hands for mop up.
As the levels progress he will be able to choose at his leisure if he wants to support or be on the frontline. sorc6/DD4/EK10 is my suggestion as he only loses one level of casting and is good in melee with 3/4 BAB.
That... is a very interesting suggestion. I've always wanted to make a Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer into Dragon Disciple, just never got around to it. I'm a bit afraid that the whole multiclassing aspect (especially with 3) will seem daunting at first, when I explain it. He might be too afraid to try it in his first game. But I'll give it a try anyway and see what he thinks. Thanks for the out-of-the-box suggestion, this is exactly what I was hoping for here!
I would second (third?) a Paladin. You don't have to go full Oradin, but a 1 level dip to get AC and CMD through CHA wouldn't be that bad.
I like the Warpriest idea too. I don't know anything about Carrion Crown and never played a Warpriest, but it seems like a good mix.
Alchemists would fill the party nicely.
I've run up to the first part of Shadows of Gallowspire. I've had a wide variety of players/characters in that campaign. I've also had experience with it. If you have a problem or concern, I'd be happy to help.
I've run up to the first part of Shadows of Gallowspire. I've had a wide variety of players/characters in that campaign. I've also had experience with it. If you have a problem or concern, I'd be happy to help.
Well I do have a few questions about the AP that you could help with, if you don't mind:
1. Exactly how much use of Disable Device (and trap related skills, etc.) would one get for the first 2-3 books? I was suggested a Seeker archetype Sorcerer at some point, and I'd like to know if it's really needed or not. Or if a Rogue or Archaeologist Bard would really be that useful in terms of disabling/openning traps/locks/whatever in the first few chapters?
2. Plenty of Sorcerer suggestions in this thread in particular, including a very interesting Dragon Disciple that peaked my interest, but I sadly have very little experience with arcane casters, so I don't know how much one of them could do in such an Undead heavy setting. Are there plenty of monsters immune to the usual arcane debuffs and non-blasting spells? How exactly will such a Sorcerer (in the hands of a new player, mind you) contribute to combat for the first 3-4 levels? Wouldn't he feel pretty useless, even if they for example spam Disrupt Undead or such?
3. And finally a questions about Haunts (and the whole no Cleric/Channel Energy problem we're facing): There are two parts in removing a Haunt, as I understand it - neutralizing it and destroying it permanently. Can you do the latter without doing the former? In order words, can we burn the corpse of the widow or whatever to destroy the Haunt, without first neutralizing it by bringing it to 0 HP with positive energy and the like?
Thanks in advance for any help!
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Well I do have a few questions about the AP that you could help with, if you don't mind:
Not at all. I'm glad to help.
1. Exactly how much use of Disable Device (and trap related skills, etc.) would one get for the first 2-3 books? I was suggested a Seeker archetype Sorcerer at some point, and I'd like to know if it's really needed or not. Or if a Rogue or Archaeologist Bard would really be that useful in terms of disabling/openning traps/locks/whatever in the first few chapters?
I would say a fair amount but they aren't the only skills needed. Plenty of Knowledge skills help, especially researching the five prisoners in Harrowstone, and later on, the Whispering Way. I've had an archeologist Bard, they've proven quite useful in handling not just the traps, but other obstacles that come up later on in the AP.
2. Plenty of Sorcerer suggestions in this thread in particular, including a very interesting Dragon Disciple that peaked my interest, but I sadly have very little experience with arcane casters, so I don't know how much one of them could do in such an Undead heavy setting. Are there plenty of monsters immune to the usual arcane debuffs and non-blasting spells? How exactly will such a Sorcerer (in the hands of a new player, mind you) contribute to combat for the first 3-4 levels? Wouldn't he feel pretty useless, even if they for example spam Disrupt Undead or such?
There aren't as many immune to spells/nonblasting spells undead as you might think. It's true there will be heavy concentrations in Books 1, parts of 2, and the end of Three. But otherwise, there are things where charm spells can work, along with illusions on occasion. That being said, a sorcerer can work. Books 5 and 6 might prove more challenging do the fact you'll be getting closer to more high level undead (vampires, liches, and raveners.) However you'll still have chances to use Enchantment school spells, Transmutations and such IF you're smart about it. I'm just not convinced they need to do Dragon Disciple to be effective. Straight Sorcerer who takes Expanded Arcana (and probably straight human) might find themselves more useful in the long term than one that went Dragon Disciple. But that's my take. I could be wrong.
3. And finally a questions about Haunts (and the whole no Cleric/Channel Energy problem we're facing): There are two parts in removing a Haunt, as I understand it - neutralizing it and destroying it permanently. Can you do the latter without doing the former? In order words, can we burn the corpse of the widow or whatever to destroy the Haunt, without first neutralizing it by bringing it to 0 HP with positive energy and the like?Thanks in advance for any help!
It's POSSIBLE. I've ruled generally they have to know HOW to do such a thing using knowledge checks to determine the history behind it. So while you could do that, it's generally easier to neutralize the haunt first than say, Destroy it without doing so.
Well I do have a few questions about the AP that you could help with, if you don't mind:Not at all. I'm glad to help.
Thank you very much for the quick and detailed reply, it helps a lot! As it stands right now, I'll suggest Bard and Sorcerer as the best choices, and let him decide what he likes best - unless of course he'd rather do something else. Also, the answer regarding Haunts is all I need to know that we'll not really miss a Cleric/Oracle of Life as long as we play it smart and come prepared.
I'd say....
Alchemist
Bard
Magus
Summoner (if allowed)edit - removed paladin as an option since this IS carrion crown.
There's a lot of conflicting suggestions about Paladins: Some say it's a great choice, others insist it breaks the AP by making it too easy, while others still imply that it's hard to play one due to the Lawfulness aspect and morally grey choices in the AP.
Can you go a bit into detail about why you cut the Paladin form the list, please? I'd like to be prepared with some answers just in caase my friend wants to play a Paladin.
Thank you very much for the quick and detailed reply, it helps a lot! As it stands right now, I'll suggest Bard and Sorcerer as the best choices, and let him decide what he likes best - unless of course he'd rather do something else. Also, the answer regarding Haunts is all I need to know that we'll not really miss a Cleric/Oracle of Life as long as we play it smart and come prepared.
If he chooses Monk, make sure he understands Monks don't get to hurt incorporeal undead. Just saying I've had monks too.
Well not sure you're missing out, but I'd HIGHLY recommend it. If nothing else, recommend your PC come prepared with LOTS of Holy Water. Like a lake full at a time. That and probably let them have access to weapon blanchings where possible.
Can you go a bit into detail about why you cut the Paladin form the list, please? I'd like to be prepared with some answers just in case my friend wants to play a Paladin.
People think that PF paladins versus undead are pretty awesome. They can be, but they still have to a) save their smites and b) can only use them against ONE opponent at a time. Me, I'm okay with it. Higher level paladins do help, but they aren't the cure against everything Carrion Crown will throw at you.
As someone playing a paladin in this AP, I've found it rather trying at times to keep the lawful aspect while making sure my party wasn't entirely screwed. It's been fun sometimes for sure, but sometimes it does get annoying.
I think it would work better if you didn't have people that kept thinking being lawful as a pain rather than an idea of "Hey let's NOT piss off the locals!" Just saying. I've had my fair share of that.
Thank you very much for the quick and detailed reply, it helps a lot! As it stands right now, I'll suggest Bard and Sorcerer as the best choices, and let him decide what he likes best - unless of course he'd rather do something else. Also, the answer regarding Haunts is all I need to know that we'll not really miss a Cleric/Oracle of Life as long as we play it smart and come prepared.If he chooses Monk, make sure he understands Monks don't get to hurt incorporeal undead. Just saying I've had monks too.
Well not sure you're missing out, but I'd HIGHLY recommend it. If nothing else, recommend your PC come prepared with LOTS of Holy Water. Like a lake full at a time. That and probably let them have access to weapon blanchings where possible.
Well I had the Holy Water aspect in mind for some time now. I'll be playing a Dhampir Kinslayer Inquisitor, and I was going to take Bless Water as one of my two level 1 spells, along with Inflict Light Wounds. Both make sense for the backstory I have in mind, and it seems like it will help quite a bit to be able to make Holy Water on demand (since I also have Create Water as a level 0 spell and can carry some empty flasks with me). Of course it's not enough, we'd most likely need to buy some extras, but still. Quick question, though: I don't suppose throwing Holy Water at the walls of a haunted room (as in Haunt) would deal damage to it? I mean, the water is technically infused with positive, holy energy, right?
Well I had the Holy Water aspect in mind for some time now. I'll be playing a Dhampir Kinslayer Inquisitor, and I was going to take Bless Water as one of my two level 1 spells, along with Inflict Light Wounds. Both make sense for the backstory I have in mind, and it seems like it will help quite a bit to be able to make Holy Water on demand (since I also have Create Water as a level 0 spell and can carry some empty flasks with me). Of course it's not enough, we'd most likely need to buy some extras, but still. Quick question, though: I don't suppose throwing Holy Water at the walls of a haunted room (as in Haunt) would deal damage to it? I mean, the water is technically infused with positive, holy energy, right?
I think, story wise, it works fine. Certainly makes sense to keep as much holy water on you as possible.
This one is a kind of a GM/DM call, but I allowed it when it was in Harrowstone. They didn't worry to much after Harrowstone since we got more players and some were divine spellcasters. (Besides Inquisitors I mean.)
Well I had the Holy Water aspect in mind for some time now. I'll be playing a Dhampir Kinslayer Inquisitor, and I was going to take Bless Water as one of my two level 1 spells, along with Inflict Light Wounds. Both make sense for the backstory I have in mind, and it seems like it will help quite a bit to be able to make Holy Water on demand (since I also have Create Water as a level 0 spell and can carry some empty flasks with me). Of course it's not enough, we'd most likely need to buy some extras, but still. Quick question, though: I don't suppose throwing Holy Water at the walls of a haunted room (as in Haunt) would deal damage to it? I mean, the water is technically infused with positive, holy energy, right?I think, story wise, it works fine. Certainly makes sense to keep as much holy water on you as possible.
This one is a kind of a GM/DM call, but I allowed it when it was in Harrowstone. They didn't worry to much after Harrowstone since we got more players and some were divine spellcasters. (Besides Inquisitors I mean.)
Well that makes sense. I'll leave it to the GM to decide then. I have two more questions if you don't mind, and then I think I have all I need to get us started on the right track:
1. Could you estimate what % of encounters in the first 3 chapters are Undead ? Except Haunts and the like, I mean specifically monsters. The whole look and feel of CC leads me to believe that it'll be almost only Undead (apart from the occasional Warewolf and such). No specifics, though, please, I'd like to avoid spoiling too much.
2. If the new guy wants nothing to do with Divine or Arcane magic on his first game (this includes Bards, I suppose), what suggestions would you have for this 3rd spot on the party? Rogue for the skillset? Or rather a tanky Fighter? [I know it's not ideal by any means, but at the end of the day he has to play whatever he enjoys the most, and we'll not force him to pick a class for any reason]
Well that makes sense. I'll leave it to the GM to decide then. I have two more questions if you don't mind, and then I think I have all I need to get us started on the right track:
Again happy to help, especially for players AND GMs. :)
1. Could you estimate what % of encounters in the first 3 chapters are undead ? Except Haunts and the like, I mean specifically monsters. The whole look and feel of CC leads me to believe that it'll be almost only undead (apart from the occasional Werewolf and such). No specifics, though, please, I'd like to avoid spoiling too much.
The percentage of undead probably falls somewhere between 45% (low side) to probably 65-70% high side. There's still a considerable range of OTHER stuff that not undead, like named NPCs, (which aren't undead), some monsters (pretty sure you'll run into a few constructs), and a few monstrous humanoids/giants. Outsiders are a premium until probably books 4, 5 and 6.
2. If the new guy wants nothing to do with Divine or Arcane magic on his first game (this includes Bards, I suppose), what suggestions would you have for this 3rd spot on the party? Rogue for the skillset? Or rather a tanky Fighter? [I know it's not ideal by any means, but at the end of the day he has to play whatever he enjoys the most, and we'll not force him to pick a class for any reason]
Well there's always my favorite, which just was released a few months back, the Investigator. There's a nice archetype that works well too with it, if your PC wants it, Leipstadt Fencer I believe. Rogue is always trusty, but if he's looking for something a little different from the norm, there's always hybrid classes or else Magus. Magus works fine. If he's not sure or wants only from the core, fighter can work but I wouldn't like make it the best option. Barbarian, especially one that a) Unchained and b) has Ghost Rager rage power might be an option. I hope that helps.
In the 4th book of the AP you might end up working with vampires. Our group figured that it was better than going alone since our only leads to the overall plot were in that direction. Then the guy we were dealing with decided all this talk made him hungry, and he needed a fresh meal (screaming kidnap victim) who he would chomp into right in front of us. Things didn't go well.
Of course, the encounter was also amped up by GM's reading of too many vampire fiction novels (master vamps win, it's pretty much in the script, and they don't let you leave without making you feel powerless), it turned into a fight we couldn't win (touch attacks in the upper teens on the die roll were missing).
I made it a point after to not be present whenever that GM even hinted vampires (it wasn't his first time with something like that). Even good GM's seem to have blind spots, and vampires were his.
When I ran this in book 5 (not 4 btw. Book 4 is Lovecraft), the Vampire Lord, while thoroughly evil made a point that he didn't want the PCs to fail, primarily because he and the Whispering Way were blood enemies. I will agree that some times, DMs/GMs can make it so they have 'pet' monsters. But the fact remains if you're a good GM, you can tell your Paladin PCs this (In a dream like I did, or just by having them consult their local chapter) "Serving the greater good some times means helping an evil one."
Just a little thought.
Well there's always my favorite, which just was released a few months back, the Investigator. There's a nice archetype that works well too with it, if your PC wants it, Leipstadt Fencer I believe. Rogue is always trusty, but if he's looking for something a little different from the norm, there's always hybrid classes or else Magus. Magus works fine. If he's not sure or wants only from the core, fighter can work but I wouldn't like make it the best option. Barbarian, especially one that a) Unchained and b) has Ghost Rager rage power might be an option. I hope that helps.
Well the Lepidstadt Fencer sounds amazing just going by the name, and it would fit so well with the AP set in Ustalav (you wrote Leipstadt, but I guess you meant Lepidstadt, which is a city in Ustalav, right? Unfortunately, however, I can't seem to find anything about the archetype anywhere, with either one of the two spellings. If you could refer me to the book/companion it's from, I'd much appreciate it. If not, don't worry, there are other Investigator archetypes that would work. I'll definitely add the class to the list of suggestions.
Well with that I think I'm all set. Thanks a million, Thomas, you really helped me a lot!
Well the Lepidstadt Fencer sounds amazing just going by the name, and it would fit so well with the AP set in Ustalav (you wrote Leipstadt, but I guess you meant Lepidstadt, which is a city in Ustalav, right? Unfortunately, however, I can't seem to find anything about the archetype anywhere, with either one of the two spellings. If you could refer me to the book/companion it's from, I'd much appreciate it. If not, don't worry, there are other Investigator archetypes that would work. I'll definitely add the class to the list of suggestions.
Well with that I think I'm all set. Thanks a million, Thomas, you really helped me a lot!
Doh. I meant Inspector. Anyways, It's in Pathfinder Player's Guide: Advanced Class Origins. It should be in the d20pfsrd.com.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paiz o---investigator-archetypes/relentless-inspector-investigator-archetype
Hope that helps. But yeah, Investigator might be a way for your newbie PC to go. Not too complicated, but still interesting.
Well the Lepidstadt Fencer sounds amazing just going by the name, and it would fit so well with the AP set in Ustalav (you wrote Leipstadt, but I guess you meant Lepidstadt, which is a city in Ustalav, right? Unfortunately, however, I can't seem to find anything about the archetype anywhere, with either one of the two spellings. If you could refer me to the book/companion it's from, I'd much appreciate it. If not, don't worry, there are other Investigator archetypes that would work. I'll definitely add the class to the list of suggestions.
Well with that I think I'm all set. Thanks a million, Thomas, you really helped me a lot!
Doh. I meant Inspector. Anyways, It's in Pathfinder Player's Guide: Advanced Class Origins. It should be in the d20pfsrd.com.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paiz o---investigator-archetypes/relentless-inspector-investigator-archetype
Hope that helps. But yeah, Investigator might be a way for your newbie PC to go. Not too complicated, but still interesting.
Yep, it helps plenty. Although I personally think the Empiricist archetype would fit much better, because it doesn't replace Trapfinding like the Relentess Inspector does. Nonetheless, the Investigator as a whole is an excellent suggestion, and I'm sure he'll love it if he wants to go the non-magic route. Thanks again!
It's been a while since we played it - most of the group didn't like it since it seemed to be so disconnected, as if the purpose wasn't to have a cohesive plot (besides chase the macguffin) other than to go through classic horror monsters. The GM still complains about how we were 'lawful stupid' in that encounter, and how it destroyed Ustalav, then we remind him that with the power levels he gave those vamps of his the Whispering Way probably got wiped out in the first night.
Well I admit that the connections between each book do tend to be...limited. Something I keep hoping might get rectified if they ever decide to release some of the older APs in updated formats. (Like they did with Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition.)
However I think you under-estimate the power of the Way has in some of its leaders. Other than a handful of this vampires that live under Caliphas, there's more to the Way, especially when they have a) 5 winter wights, b) more than 3 or 4 graveknights of pretty substantive power, more than 5 raveners, who are of at least old age category if not older. Along with more than 20 or so liches. That's pretty significant firepower compared to a few vampires with a handful of class levels. (I mean other than Luvick Siervage.)
Yep, it helps plenty. Although I personally think the Empiricist archetype would fit much better, because it doesn't replace Trapfinding like the Relentess Inspector does. Nonetheless, the Investigator as a whole is an excellent suggestion, and I'm sure he'll love it if he wants to go the non-magic route. Thanks again!
Always glad to help.
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If your talking Empiricist Investigator I recommend a level 1 dip into inspired blade swash for quick access to fencing grace while adding to your melee bag of tricks. If you grab mutagen you can +8 your dex by level 5 and if you throw in alter self or reduce person +10 dex.
I really love the synergy of the 2 classes. Plus first 5 levels of Investigator suck for combat.
If your talking Empiricist Investigator I recommend a level 1 dip into inspired blade swash for quick access to fencing grace while adding to your melee bag of tricks. If you grab mutagen you can +8 your dex by level 5 and if you throw in alter self or reduce person +10 dex.
I really love the synergy of the 2 classes. Plus first 5 levels of Investigator suck for combat.
Personally I was under the impression that the Ranger and the Inquisitor would do most of the fighting...but I could be wrong.
If your talking Empiricist Investigator I recommend a level 1 dip into inspired blade swash for quick access to fencing grace while adding to your melee bag of tricks. If you grab mutagen you can +8 your dex by level 5 and if you throw in alter self or reduce person +10 dex.
I really love the synergy of the 2 classes. Plus first 5 levels of Investigator suck for combat.
I was just looking at the Swashbuckler as well, for the same purpose. Glad to see I wasn't mistaken in considering a 1 level dip. The only concern now is selling such early multiclassing to a new player. They tend to be inherently.. afraid of complex systems like that. But if he does go with Investigator, the whole deal is far too good to pass up, so I'll definitely insist he consider the Swashbuckler dip.
Any suggestions on exactly when to do it? I was thinking that starting with Swashbuckler wouldn't be a bad idea at all, actually, and going full Investigator from level 2 onwards. Either that or dip at level 2, since the lower levels are the ones where he might feel a bit useless in combat - especially when paired with a Ranger and Inquisitor in the party. Is that a good idea, or am I off the mark here?
Most of us in the group think the GM amped up the vampires out of his own personal prejudices, or does Luvick have a touch AC of over 40?
Last I checked his touch was only like 15 I think. High for some, but a) strong Dex character and b) plenty of Deflection bonus. *checks* Yep Touch AC 15. Your DM must REALLY like vampires to make him that strong. Hell his competition, Malyas, a 15th level Vampire Antipaladin doesn't have that kind of Touch AC.
I was just looking at the Swashbuckler as well, for the same purpose. Glad to see I wasn't mistaken in considering a 1 level dip. The only concern now is selling such early multiclassing to a new player. They tend to be inherently.. afraid of complex systems like that. But if he does go with Investigator, the whole deal is far too good to pass up, so I'll definitely insist he consider the Swashbuckler dip.
Any suggestions on exactly when to do it? I was thinking that starting with Swashbuckler wouldn't be a bad idea at all, actually, and going full Investigator from level 2 onwards. Either that or dip at level 2, since the lower levels are the ones where he might feel a bit useless in combat - especially when paired with a Ranger and Inquisitor in the party. Is that a good idea, or am I off the mark here?
I'm not sure I'd do it but then again I like Investigator as a strong single class, much like I like Swashbuckler as a single class. But that's me. If you want to have him follow Thistlefoot's suggestion, my advice is to have him take his first three levels in Investigator followed by a level of Swashbuckler.
I forgot to mention (if your group doesn't have a trapfinder in it) the Crypt Breaker alchemist archetype. It's pretty good at it, and can be a terror vs. corporeal undead (upping the die to a d8 at low levels, and then adding +1 per die and getting improved crit with them at level 14).
Yeah I forgot about that. But then again most people that do Alchemists favor just blowing things up. At least that's been my experience.