My friend and I are arguing about Eidolons and the rules seem to either be unclear or nonsensical to me. the creature that he created has five primary attacks (1 bite, 2 claws, 2 rakes), which goes against the design of any creatures found in the beastiary. Also, compare the claws evolution to the hooves evolution. If you can take multiple sets or claws that are all primary attacks than why would anyone take hooves? Too that end why couldn't hooves be a primary attack as they would be for a horse? The description says that claws could be swapped out for it. Seems to me that they rules should be that an Eidolon gets 1 primary attack evolution, bite, claws, hooves, rake, etc, and everything else is considered a second attack just as they would in the beastiary.
He's also giving the bite attach the full 1.5 strength bonus based on the evolution description, when the overall description indicates that that is only the case if it is their only attack. He took bite a second time to get the bonus, but gain that doesn't make sense since he already had it.
Finally, the DM allowed his Eidolon to have equipment, in this case an amulet of mighty fists +3 and a belt of physical perfection +2. It's a quadruped with a belt. Are there any rules for this? They are saying that since an Eidolon can look like anything the summoner wants it has a minotaur body with no arms so that it can wear the belt.
All I know is that this 9 hit die Eidolon could kick the ass of my level 12 fighter/rogue and that seems completely broken.
Summoners and their eidolons are very broken. I really wish that Paizo would come out with a book to fix them. Maybe an April release? Just seems the right time of year for such a thing.
It's more accurate to say that eidolons and summoners are very breakable especially by players with system master, and GMs who cooperate with them breaking rules.
Your friend and your DM are two of the poster children for reasons why the Summoner was given the nerfbats in Unchained!
Magic items are "shared" with the master, so the Summoner cannot wear an amulet or belt (not a big deal). There is a section of which magic items slot each animal type can wear in the Animal Archives (carries over to similar shaped creatures).
Bite only gets 1.5 x STR if it is the ONLY attack the creature has.
Hooves are secondary attacks. Even for horses.
Many creatures get Bite, Claw, Claw as primary (large cats) and Rake requires a triggering effect, usually Pounce or Grapple, and can't be used without it.
So your 9 HD eidolon should have 3 attacks (5 when a condition is met).
It also has 3 less base attack than your 12th level fighter and many, many less feats. Your 12th level fighter should be able to beat the eidolon in 1:1 combat without sweating.
NjSoapdish wrote: He's also giving the bite attach the full 1.5 strength bonus based on the evolution description, when the overall description indicates that that is only the case if it is their only attack. He took bite a second time to get the bonus, but gain that doesn't make sense since he already had it. That's legal. I believe it's supposed to work like a dragon's bite (which also gets 1.5 Str despite being one of several natural weapons).
Eidolon Evolution Bite wrote: If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite.
Duiker wrote: Summoners and their eidolons are very broken. I really wish that Paizo would come out with a book to fix them. Maybe an April release? Just seems the right time of year for such a thing. Check out the Summoner in Unchained for a fixed version
Bare in mind that no matter the number of attacks the eidolon has to choose from, it still has a limit on the number of attacks it can make in a round. It's on the far right side of the eidolon table.
Canthin wrote: Magic items are "shared" with the master, so the Summoner cannot wear an amulet or belt (not a big deal). There is a section of which magic items slot each animal type can wear in the Animal Archives (carries over to similar shaped creatures).
Bite only gets 1.5 x STR if it is the ONLY attack the creature has.
Hooves are secondary attacks. Even for horses.
Many creatures get Bite, Claw, Claw as primary (large cats) and Rake requires a triggering effect, usually Pounce or Grapple, and can't be used without it.
So your 9 HD eidolon should have 3 attacks (5 when a condition is met).
It also has 3 less base attack than your 12th level fighter and many, many less feats. Your 12th level fighter should be able to beat the eidolon in 1:1 combat without sweating.
Thanks, that was a big help and I can agree to that. However my friend just said they would turn their Eidelon into a biped so that it could wear the items.
Weirdo wrote: NjSoapdish wrote: He's also giving the bite attach the full 1.5 strength bonus based on the evolution description, when the overall description indicates that that is only the case if it is their only attack. He took bite a second time to get the bonus, but gain that doesn't make sense since he already had it. That's legal. I believe it's supposed to work like a dragon's bite (which also gets 1.5 Str despite being one of several natural weapons).
Eidolon Evolution Bite wrote: If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite. That's not what the SRD says: "Eidolon attacks add the eidolon’s Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier." Also, "Natural attacks listed as primary are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus and add the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls. Natural attacks listed as secondary are made using the eidolon’s base attack bonus – 5 and add 1/2 the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls (if positive). If the eidolon only has a single natural attack, the attack is made using its full base attack bonus and it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with that attack, regardless of the attack’s type."
The more I look at this the more broken it seems. Compare the Eidelon to a Druid's animal companion and there is no comparison. At level 12 an animal companion gets slightly better saves, one more hit dice that are d8s instead of d10s, two less bab, 26 less skills, 2 less armor, one less strength and dexterity, and none of them have 5 attacks not to mention all of the other abilities you can get for 16 evolution points. It's completely unbalanced. A summoner should be an arcane caster with a battle familiar comparable to an animal companion, not a monster with a weak wizard that follows it around.
Note that the eidolon's rake is not like the UMR rake.
It requires the 2 point grab evo, and it only works when the grab hits, so by definition, it only works on creatures smaller than the eidolon. (there is a sneaky way to get that up to the same size as the eidolon, but I'll leave that for you guys to discover :) )
So just swig a potion of enlarge person, and go to town on him :)
This actually sounds like a remarkably tame 12th level eidolon.
Gearwise, that is 52,000 gp of gear. At 12th level, you should have about twice that.
Actually, the easiest way for you to win a fight against the eidolon may be to sucker punch is summoner. He is likely to be a lot lower AC.
In any case, the eidolon is going to have a lot fewer hit points than you do.
Actually, Druid ACs are one of the most powerful class features, and routinely clean eidolon clocks. Among other things, they don't cost the Druid body slots, and they don't evaporate if the druid goes unconcious and they can wear armor. And at 12th level, more than one of them has bite/clawx2/rake/pounce. (and unlike the eidolon, their rake works on a pounce.)
Also, it would help if you said whether you guys are using the APG or the Unchained summoner. The APG summoner is super broken, just not for the reasons you listed.
NjSoapdish wrote: That's not what the SRD says: "Eidolon attacks add the eidolon’s Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier." Also, "Natural attacks listed as primary are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus and add the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls. Natural attacks listed as secondary are made using the eidolon’s base attack bonus – 5 and add 1/2 the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls (if positive). If the eidolon only has a single natural attack, the attack is made using its full base attack bonus and it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with that attack, regardless of the attack’s type." It is, actually. He quoted it himself. You're quoting the general rule, while the Bite evolution [i]explicitly[i] lets you take it twice to give 1.5x Strength on it (and it alone).
Cylerist wrote: Duiker wrote: Summoners and their eidolons are very broken. I really wish that Paizo would come out with a book to fix them. Maybe an April release? Just seems the right time of year for such a thing. Check out the Summoner in Unchained for a fixed version The unchained summoner Eidelon is still much more powerful than an animal companion. The only difference I'm seeing is that it gives less evolution points. None of the inconsistent rules are explained either.
The NPC wrote: Bare in mind that no matter the number of attacks the eidolon has to choose from, it still has a limit on the number of attacks it can make in a round. It's on the far right side of the eidolon table. Five attacks all at +19 to hit is still far more than anything else gets at level 12.
FLite wrote: Note that the eidolon's rake is not like the UMR rake.
It requires the 2 point grab evo, and it only works when the grab hits, so by definition, it only works on creatures smaller than the eidolon. (there is a sneaky way to get that up to the same size as the eidolon, but I'll leave that for you guys to discover :) )
So just swig a potion of enlarge person, and go to town on him :)
This actually sounds like a remarkably tame 12th level eidolon.
Gearwise, that is 52,000 gp of gear. At 12th level, you should have about twice that.
Actually, the easiest way for you to win a fight against the eidolon may be to sucker punch is summoner. He is likely to be a lot lower AC.
In any case, the eidolon is going to have a lot fewer hit points than you do.
It only makes sense to take grab if you're taking rake anyhow. Also I don't see why grab also gives a +4 to grapple. My friend is also taking improved grapple and greater grapple to get +8. Plush it's large and has 30 strength so.. yeah it's going to succeed. Did I mention it also pounces and has 40ft movement?
The DM only gave us 75,000 gold for these characters rather than the 108,000 suggested. I also bought a lot of stuff besides weapons and armor so I only had the money for a bunch of +2 equipment.
His Eidelon actually has a few more HP than I do, but that's because I did a skill focused build with a rogue level so that my character is more reliable in combat than a rogue and more useful out of combat than a fighter. That's another story though. I still have an AC of 33, power attack, greater weapon specialization, and three levels on it. It shouldn't be able to cream me in one turn.
The NPC wrote: Bare in mind that no matter the number of attacks the eidolon has to choose from, it still has a limit on the number of attacks it can make in a round. It's on the far right side of the eidolon table. This statement depends on whether you mean the regular or Unchained version.
In the original, the Max Attacks is specifically the number of natural attacks it can possess, not the number of attacks it can make.
The Unchained version includes manufactured weapon attacks in this number, so is a limit on number of attacks the Eidolon can make.
NjSoapdish wrote: Cylerist wrote: Duiker wrote: Summoners and their eidolons are very broken. I really wish that Paizo would come out with a book to fix them. Maybe an April release? Just seems the right time of year for such a thing. Check out the Summoner in Unchained for a fixed version The unchained summoner Eidelon is still much more powerful than an animal companion. The only difference I'm seeing is that it gives less evolution points. None of the inconsistent rules are explained either. It gets fewer points, has more restrictions on what it can spend it on, can no longer use manufactured weapons to bypass its cap on attacks, and the summoner's spell list was changed so they're no longer a full caster pretending to be a partial one.
NjSoapdish wrote: His Eidelon actually has a few more HP than I do, but that's because I did a skill focused build with a rogue level so that my character is more reliable in combat than a rogue and more useful out of combat than a fighter. That's another story though. I still have an AC of 33, power attack, greater weapon specialization, and three levels on it. It shouldn't be able to cream me in one turn. His eidolon should have 67 HP, before feats or evolutions taken to increase its con.
NjSoapdish wrote:
The unchained summoner Eidelon is still much more powerful than an animal companion.
You and I play at tables with very different AC.
The Eidolon loses to ACs.
Jeff Merola wrote: NjSoapdish wrote: His Eidelon actually has a few more HP than I do, but that's because I did a skill focused build with a rogue level so that my character is more reliable in combat than a rogue and more useful out of combat than a fighter. That's another story though. I still have an AC of 33, power attack, greater weapon specialization, and three levels on it. It shouldn't be able to cream me in one turn. His eidolon should have 67 HP, before feats or evolutions taken to increase its con. Unless they are rolling for hit points, in which case you may be looking at bad dice luck.
Like I said, quaf a potion of enlarge, and his rake doesn't work on you.
Can you post your full build? (and if possible his Eidolon?)
His Eidolon should have ~24-30 AC depending what Evos he has bought, and hitting for 1d6+12 (bite) and 1d4+9 (claw)
A 12th level fighter with THW + power attack should be hitting for something like 1d8 + 20 (minimum) I think. +24 given GWS.
Jeff Merola wrote: NjSoapdish wrote: His Eidelon actually has a few more HP than I do, but that's because I did a skill focused build with a rogue level so that my character is more reliable in combat than a rogue and more useful out of combat than a fighter. That's another story though. I still have an AC of 33, power attack, greater weapon specialization, and three levels on it. It shouldn't be able to cream me in one turn. His eidolon should have 67 HP, before feats or evolutions taken to increase its con. We play max HP and his Eidelon has an 18 con so he should have 126. He put 135 on his sheet though so that seems wrong, in which case my 129 would be a little more.
I realized that I might be able to take it in a long fight if I use my shield, but if he grapples me I think I'd be toast. Even without the grab evolution triggering a free grapple on an attack he can just get me with the combat maneuver.
NjSoapdish wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: NjSoapdish wrote: His Eidelon actually has a few more HP than I do, but that's because I did a skill focused build with a rogue level so that my character is more reliable in combat than a rogue and more useful out of combat than a fighter. That's another story though. I still have an AC of 33, power attack, greater weapon specialization, and three levels on it. It shouldn't be able to cream me in one turn. His eidolon should have 67 HP, before feats or evolutions taken to increase its con. We play max HP and his Eidelon has an 18 con so he should have 126. He put 135 on his sheet though so that seems wrong, in which case my 129 would be a little more.
I realized that I might be able to take it in a long fight if I use my shield, but if he grapples me I think I'd be toast. Even without the grab evolution triggering a free grapple on an attack he can just get me with the combat maneuver. If his Eidolon has toughness, 135 would be correct. As for your HP...what? Do you have a Con of 10? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you were a Fighter 11/Rogue 1.
NjSoapdish wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: NjSoapdish wrote: His Eidelon actually has a few more HP than I do, but that's because I did a skill focused build with a rogue level so that my character is more reliable in combat than a rogue and more useful out of combat than a fighter. That's another story though. I still have an AC of 33, power attack, greater weapon specialization, and three levels on it. It shouldn't be able to cream me in one turn. His eidolon should have 67 HP, before feats or evolutions taken to increase its con. We play max HP and his Eidelon has an 18 con so he should have 126. He put 135 on his sheet though so that seems wrong, in which case my 129 would be a little more.
I realized that I might be able to take it in a long fight if I use my shield, but if he grapples me I think I'd be toast. Even without the grab evolution triggering a free grapple on an attack he can just get me with the combat maneuver. Give me sometime to put my build together in a way that I can show without sharing the sheet. Here is his build though:
EIDOLON (Quadruped)
Speed: 40’ (fly 40’) Reach: 10’ Initiative: +4
HP: 135 [9d10+45]
Attack Bonus: +19[9(base)+10(STR)–1(size)+3(amulet)–3(power attack)]
Max Attacks: 5
Attack: bite +19 (2d6+27 plus grab)
Attacks are considered magic and good for overcoming DR
Full Attack: bite +19 (2d6+27 plus grab), 2 claws+19 (2d6+19), 2 rakes+19 (2d6+19) +rend (2d6+27)
AC: 27 [10 + 14 (natural) + 4 (DEX) – 1 (size)] 13 Touch / 23 Flatfoot
CMB: +19 [9 (base) + 9 (STR) +1 (size)]
(+8 to Grapple / maintaining Grapple is a move action)
CMD: 32 [10 + 9 (base) + 9 (STR) + 3 (DEX) +1 (size)]
(+2 to avoid being Grappled)
Fortitude: +11[6(base)+5(CON)]
Reflex: +10[6(base)+4(DEX)]
Will: +3[3(base)+0(WIS)]
STR:28(30) DEX:17(19) CON:18(20) INT:7 WIS:10 CHA:11
Acrobatics: +13 [9 (ranks) + 4 (DEX)]
Fly: +14 [9 (ranks) + +3 (class) + 4 (dex) – 2 (size)]
Perception: +12 [9 (ranks) +3 (class) + 0 (WIS)]
Stealth: +12 [9 (ranks) +3 (class) +4 (DEX) – 4 (size)]
Feats:
Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack (claws), Improved Natural Attack (rake)
evolutions
Bite (x2), Claws, Fly, Grab (bite), Improved Damage (claws), Improved Damage (bite), Improved Damage (rake), Large, Limbs (legs) x2, Magic Attacks, Pounce, Rake, Rend
abilities:
Darkvision 60’ Devotion Evasion
Link Multiattack Share Spells
items:
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
Amulet of Mighty Fists +3
Go easy on me, but here is my build. I realized I did make a few mistakes originally and now I'm considering dropping the rogue level altogether to get great weapon specialization. Also I know I took a lot of skill feats, but that's to be able to fill the rogue role with all of those fighter levels. Finally, I might drop point blank shot for improved critical on the greatsword.
Sicaria
Race Tiefling
str 18
dex 22
con 11
int 16
wis 10
cha 10
traits: Mind over matter and keeper of the veil
starting feat: armor of the pit- +2 natural armor
1 fighter 1: weapon focus- greatsword
2 fighter 2: Power attack, bravery +1
3 fighter 3: armor training
feat: skill focus- stealth
4 fighter 4: weapon specialization- greatsword
5 fighter 5: weapon training- heavy blades
feat: decietful- +2 bluff and disguise
6 fighter 6: furious focus, bravery +2
7 fighter 7: armor training
feat: deft hands- +2 disable device and sleight of hand
8 fighter 8: greater weapon focus- greatsword
9 fighter 9: weapon training- bows
feat: alertness- +2 perception and sense motive
10 fighter 10: quick draw, bravery +1
11 fighter 11: armor training
feat: Point blank shot
12 rogue 1: sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
HP: 129
AC: 33/37* (touch 18, flat-footed 27/31*) *with shield
move 30
initiative +6
Attack: +21/+12/+7 greatsword +2 2d6+24
+20/+15/+10 Composite longbow(5) +1 1d8+7
+20/+11/+6 flail 1d8+13
Fort: 10 Ref: 14 Will: 7
CMB 15, CMD 31
Abilities: cold elect and fire resist 5, +2 bluff and srealth, cast darkness 1/day CL 12, darkvision 60ft, prehensile tail, bravery +3, armor training 3, weapon training: heavy blades +2 bows +1, sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
Skills: acrobatics 15, bluff 22, climb 1, disable device 27, disguise 20, know dungeon 7, know local 7, perception 19, sense motive 6, sleight of hand 12, stealth 37
equipment:
thieves' tools- +2 disable device 100 gold
Boots of Striding and Springing 5,500 gold
ring of chameleon power 12,700 gold
handy haversack 2,000
+2 mithral full plate 6,400
belt of incredible dexterity +2 4,000
headband of vast intelligence +2 4,000
+2 greatsword 8,050
ring of protection +2 8,000
amulet of natural armor +2 8,000
cloak of resistance +3 9,000
+1 composite longbow 2500
+1 havey flail 2,015
40 arrows 2
Bloodvine rope 200
heavy steal shield +2 2,020
total gold 74,480
You're melee, you really, really want more Con.
Going to break this down a bit at a time.
NjSoapdish wrote:
EIDOLON (Quadruped)
Speed: 40’ (fly 40’) Reach: 10’
No Reach: 5'
Same as you.
large wrote: If the eidolon has the biped base form, it also gains 10-foot reach. Common error
NjSoapdish wrote:
Initiative: +4
HP: 135 [9d10+45]
Attack Bonus: +19[9(base)+10(STR)–1(size)+3(amulet)–3(power attack)]
Okay, a little lower than yours.
What is giving you those wierdly low iteratives? (Or is something only giving you plusses on the first hit per turn?)
He needs an 18 to hit you.
You need a 7 / 15 / 20 to hit him
NjSoapdish wrote:
Max Attacks: 5
Attack: bite +19 (2d6+27 plus grab)
Attacks are considered magic and good for overcoming DR
Full Attack: bite +19 (2d6+27 plus grab), 2 claws+19 (2d6+19), 2 rakes+19 (2d6+19) +rend (2d6+27)
3 more points of damage on bite, 5 less than you on claw
That's about a wash.
I'll have to do more compare later. But basically, using the most broken class in the game, he came up with something that is just about your equal. If he had been using unchained, he would have about half that many evo points.
Skills:
The Eidolon has 4 skills, in the 10-14 range.
You have 4 skills in the 20+ range.
In fact, you could just walk up and smack it in the surprise round since it can't actually roll your stealth, no matter how badly you roll.
It actually has a fairly poor fly skill.
On your side, I have never been convinced that the +2 to 2 skills feats are good value for money.
Equipment wise, drop your Amulet of natural armor to +1 and get a Jingsana of the fortunate soldier. +1 luck bonus to armor, and avoid crits / sneak attacks. Drop your ring of Prot to +1 and spend 5K to get a dusky rose Ioun stone (+1 insight bonus to AC and slot it in a wayfinder for +2 CMD/ CMB) Then find something fun to spend 2K on.
Also, don't your magic weapons need to be masterwork? (You are missing some 300s there)
Just doing math off the top of my head, his eidolon has 19 evo points, so he has spent 3 feats or 12 hitpoint (assuming FCB) on it as well.
NjSoapdish wrote: +1 havey flail 2,015
heavy steal shield +2 2,020
Any particular reason why you've spent 4,000gp on these items when your feats and weapon training are with the greatsword?
If you want backups, masterwork is plenty.
Also, a +2 shield costs 4,170gp.
NjSoapdish wrote: Finally, I might drop point blank shot for improved critical on the greatsword. Probably a good idea. Unless you're planning on taking Rapid Shot in the next level or two to be more of a switch hitter.
I'm a little unclear on what you're trying to achieve with that build. A switch hitter with good skills? You've spent most of your fighter feat advantage - 4/6 feats - on skills. Plus a lot of your reduced gold allowance - almost 20,000gp between the ring, headband, and the part of the boots that add to acrobatics. Plus the dip in rogue, which costs you a point of BAB and fighter advancement.
Also it's a bit odd that your Dex is 4 points higher than your strength if you plan to use a two-handed weapon most of the time. Even without the belt, you're spending 33K and a feat on defense. (Though +2 mithral full plate is not 6,400gp - it's 14,650 gp.) Conversely you're only spending 12.5K on offense, and that's 3 different weapons. Is it any wonder that the eidolon hits harder than you?
I would strongly consider Slayer. You get full BAB and lots of skill points, plus combat and skill bonuses from Studied Target. You can take Trapfinding. Foil Scrutiny, Fast Stealth, and Master of Disguise may also be up your alley. With all these skills you can lower Int a bit in favour of Con. You can also use some combination of Combat Style, Combat Trick, or Weapon Training to keep up your number of combat feats - archery style is good for switch hitting since you can cherry pick Rapid Shot and Manyshot.
Switch to mithral breastplate (8,350gp for +2) and grab a Str belt instead of a Dex one (mithral breastplate caps at +5 Dex). Skip the ring of chameleon power - consider a Hat of Disguise and Shadow Armour or a few Elixirs of Stealth. You can also swap the Boots of Striding and Springing for Boots of Elvenkind since you'll have 30ft move without them (or just enjoy 40ft speed). This, plus dropping the enhancements on flail and shield, should cover your errors on weapon and armour costs and also leave you some left over to invest back into your weapons and defenses.
I think you'll find it's much easier to balance combat and skill roles when you're playing a class that's actually designed to do that.
NjSoapdish wrote: Attack Bonus: +19[9(base)+10(STR)–1(size)+3(amulet)–3(power attack)]
9+10-1+3-3= 18 not 19
Also why does your fighter have so much Dex instead of Str?
Since you are level 12, that means you should be equal to CR 12 monsters, but they seem to be quite a bit stronger than your character. Seems like the eidolon is not the problem, but your fighter is.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber
Apologies if this isn't the best thread for this, or the answer is obviously presented somewhere and I'm just missing it, but....
From the rule: "If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day."
Does "the following day" mean "at dawn of a new day", "after midnight", twenty-four hours after the death, or something else?
My summoner's eidolon was slain in the evening and we're trying to determine when in the following day it will be available again. Thanks in advance for any clarification.
In cases you're asking a different question, it's always better to make a new thread instead of animating an old one.
I would use the same basis required for when you recharge your spell slots to determine what the following day is. There are no strict rules regarding what the time counts as.
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