NjSoapdish's page

Go easy on me, but here is my build. I realized I did make a few mistakes originally and now I'm considering dropping the rogue level altogether to get great weapon specialization. Also I know I took a lot of skill feats, but that's to be able to fill the rogue role with all of those fighter levels. Finally, I might drop point blank shot for improved critical on the greatsword.

Sicaria
Race Tiefling

str 18
dex 22
con 11
int 16
wis 10
cha 10
traits: Mind over matter and keeper of the veil
starting feat: armor of the pit- +2 natural armor
1 fighter 1: weapon focus- greatsword
2 fighter 2: Power attack, bravery +1
3 fighter 3: armor training
feat: skill focus- stealth
4 fighter 4: weapon specialization- greatsword
5 fighter 5: weapon training- heavy blades
feat: decietful- +2 bluff and disguise
6 fighter 6: furious focus, bravery +2
7 fighter 7: armor training
feat: deft hands- +2 disable device and sleight of hand
8 fighter 8: greater weapon focus- greatsword
9 fighter 9: weapon training- bows
feat: alertness- +2 perception and sense motive
10 fighter 10: quick draw, bravery +1
11 fighter 11: armor training
feat: Point blank shot
12 rogue 1: sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding

HP: 129
AC: 33/37* (touch 18, flat-footed 27/31*) *with shield
move 30
initiative +6
Attack: +21/+12/+7 greatsword +2 2d6+24
+20/+15/+10 Composite longbow(5) +1 1d8+7
+20/+11/+6 flail 1d8+13
Fort: 10 Ref: 14 Will: 7
CMB 15, CMD 31
Abilities: cold elect and fire resist 5, +2 bluff and srealth, cast darkness 1/day CL 12, darkvision 60ft, prehensile tail, bravery +3, armor training 3, weapon training: heavy blades +2 bows +1, sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
Skills: acrobatics 15, bluff 22, climb 1, disable device 27, disguise 20, know dungeon 7, know local 7, perception 19, sense motive 6, sleight of hand 12, stealth 37
equipment:
thieves' tools- +2 disable device 100 gold
Boots of Striding and Springing 5,500 gold
ring of chameleon power 12,700 gold
handy haversack 2,000
+2 mithral full plate 6,400
belt of incredible dexterity +2 4,000
headband of vast intelligence +2 4,000
+2 greatsword 8,050
ring of protection +2 8,000
amulet of natural armor +2 8,000
cloak of resistance +3 9,000
+1 composite longbow 2500
+1 havey flail 2,015
40 arrows 2
Bloodvine rope 200
heavy steal shield +2 2,020
total gold 74,480

Jeff Merola wrote:

NjSoapdish wrote:

His Eidelon actually has a few more HP than I do, but that's because I did a skill focused build with a rogue level so that my character is more reliable in combat than a rogue and more useful out of combat than a fighter. That's another story though. I still have an AC of 33, power attack, greater weapon specialization, and three levels on it. It shouldn't be able to cream me in one turn.

His eidolon should have 67 HP, before feats or evolutions taken to increase its con.

We play max HP and his Eidelon has an 18 con so he should have 126. He put 135 on his sheet though so that seems wrong, in which case my 129 would be a little more.

I realized that I might be able to take it in a long fight if I use my shield, but if he grapples me I think I'd be toast. Even without the grab evolution triggering a free grapple on an attack he can just get me with the combat maneuver.

Give me sometime to put my build together in a way that I can show without sharing the sheet. Here is his build though:

EIDOLON (Quadruped)
Speed: 40’ (fly 40’) Reach: 10’ Initiative: +4
HP: 135 [9d10+45]
Attack Bonus: +19[9(base)+10(STR)–1(size)+3(amulet)–3(power attack)]
Max Attacks: 5
Attack: bite +19 (2d6+27 plus grab)
Attacks are considered magic and good for overcoming DR
Full Attack: bite +19 (2d6+27 plus grab), 2 claws+19 (2d6+19), 2 rakes+19 (2d6+19) +rend (2d6+27)
AC: 27 [10 + 14 (natural) + 4 (DEX) – 1 (size)] 13 Touch / 23 Flatfoot
CMB: +19 [9 (base) + 9 (STR) +1 (size)]
(+8 to Grapple / maintaining Grapple is a move action)
CMD: 32 [10 + 9 (base) + 9 (STR) + 3 (DEX) +1 (size)]
(+2 to avoid being Grappled)
Fortitude: +11[6(base)+5(CON)]
Reflex: +10[6(base)+4(DEX)]
Will: +3[3(base)+0(WIS)]

STR:28(30) DEX:17(19) CON:18(20) INT:7 WIS:10 CHA:11

Acrobatics: +13 [9 (ranks) + 4 (DEX)]
Fly: +14 [9 (ranks) + +3 (class) + 4 (dex) – 2 (size)]
Perception: +12 [9 (ranks) +3 (class) + 0 (WIS)]
Stealth: +12 [9 (ranks) +3 (class) +4 (DEX) – 4 (size)]

Feats:
Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack (claws), Improved Natural Attack (rake)

evolutions
Bite (x2), Claws, Fly, Grab (bite), Improved Damage (claws), Improved Damage (bite), Improved Damage (rake), Large, Limbs (legs) x2, Magic Attacks, Pounce, Rake, Rend

abilities:
Darkvision 60’ Devotion Evasion
Link Multiattack Share Spells

items:
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
Amulet of Mighty Fists +3

NjSoapdish wrote:

His Eidelon actually has a few more HP than I do, but that's because I did a skill focused build with a rogue level so that my character is more reliable in combat than a rogue and more useful out of combat than a fighter. That's another story though. I still have an AC of 33, power attack, greater weapon specialization, and three levels on it. It shouldn't be able to cream me in one turn.

His eidolon should have 67 HP, before feats or evolutions taken to increase its con.

We play max HP and his Eidelon has an 18 con so he should have 126. He put 135 on his sheet though so that seems wrong, in which case my 129 would be a little more.

I realized that I might be able to take it in a long fight if I use my shield, but if he grapples me I think I'd be toast. Even without the grab evolution triggering a free grapple on an attack he can just get me with the combat maneuver.

Duiker wrote:

Summoners and their eidolons are very broken. I really wish that Paizo would come out with a book to fix them. Maybe an April release? Just seems the right time of year for such a thing.

Check out the Summoner in Unchained for a fixed version

The unchained summoner Eidelon is still much more powerful than an animal companion. The only difference I'm seeing is that it gives less evolution points. None of the inconsistent rules are explained either.

Bare in mind that no matter the number of attacks the eidolon has to choose from, it still has a limit on the number of attacks it can make in a round. It's on the far right side of the eidolon table.

Five attacks all at +19 to hit is still far more than anything else gets at level 12.

Note that the eidolon's rake is not like the UMR rake.

It requires the 2 point grab evo, and it only works when the grab hits, so by definition, it only works on creatures smaller than the eidolon. (there is a sneaky way to get that up to the same size as the eidolon, but I'll leave that for you guys to discover :) )

So just swig a potion of enlarge person, and go to town on him :)

This actually sounds like a remarkably tame 12th level eidolon.

Gearwise, that is 52,000 gp of gear. At 12th level, you should have about twice that.

Actually, the easiest way for you to win a fight against the eidolon may be to sucker punch is summoner. He is likely to be a lot lower AC.

In any case, the eidolon is going to have a lot fewer hit points than you do.

It only makes sense to take grab if you're taking rake anyhow. Also I don't see why grab also gives a +4 to grapple. My friend is also taking improved grapple and greater grapple to get +8. Plush it's large and has 30 strength so.. yeah it's going to succeed. Did I mention it also pounces and has 40ft movement?

The DM only gave us 75,000 gold for these characters rather than the 108,000 suggested. I also bought a lot of stuff besides weapons and armor so I only had the money for a bunch of +2 equipment.

His Eidelon actually has a few more HP than I do, but that's because I did a skill focused build with a rogue level so that my character is more reliable in combat than a rogue and more useful out of combat than a fighter. That's another story though. I still have an AC of 33, power attack, greater weapon specialization, and three levels on it. It shouldn't be able to cream me in one turn.

Magic items are "shared" with the master, so the Summoner cannot wear an amulet or belt (not a big deal). There is a section of which magic items slot each animal type can wear in the Animal Archives (carries over to similar shaped creatures).

Bite only gets 1.5 x STR if it is the ONLY attack the creature has.

Hooves are secondary attacks. Even for horses.

Many creatures get Bite, Claw, Claw as primary (large cats) and Rake requires a triggering effect, usually Pounce or Grapple, and can't be used without it.

So your 9 HD eidolon should have 3 attacks (5 when a condition is met).

It also has 3 less base attack than your 12th level fighter and many, many less feats. Your 12th level fighter should be able to beat the eidolon in 1:1 combat without sweating.

Thanks, that was a big help and I can agree to that. However my friend just said they would turn their Eidelon into a biped so that it could wear the items.

NjSoapdish wrote:

He's also giving the bite attach the full 1.5 strength bonus based on the evolution description, when the overall description indicates that that is only the case if it is their only attack. He took bite a second time to get the bonus, but gain that doesn't make sense since he already had it.

That's legal. I believe it's supposed to work like a dragon's bite (which also gets 1.5 Str despite being one of several natural weapons).

Eidolon Evolution Bite wrote:

If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite.

That's not what the SRD says: "Eidolon attacks add the eidolon’s Strength modifier to the damage roll, unless it is its only attack, in which case it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier." Also, "Natural attacks listed as primary are made using the eidolon’s full base attack bonus and add the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls. Natural attacks listed as secondary are made using the eidolon’s base attack bonus – 5 and add 1/2 the eidolon’s Strength modifier on damage rolls (if positive). If the eidolon only has a single natural attack, the attack is made using its full base attack bonus and it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with that attack, regardless of the attack’s type."

The more I look at this the more broken it seems. Compare the Eidelon to a Druid's animal companion and there is no comparison. At level 12 an animal companion gets slightly better saves, one more hit dice that are d8s instead of d10s, two less bab, 26 less skills, 2 less armor, one less strength and dexterity, and none of them have 5 attacks not to mention all of the other abilities you can get for 16 evolution points. It's completely unbalanced. A summoner should be an arcane caster with a battle familiar comparable to an animal companion, not a monster with a weak wizard that follows it around.

My friend and I are arguing about Eidolons and the rules seem to either be unclear or nonsensical to me. the creature that he created has five primary attacks (1 bite, 2 claws, 2 rakes), which goes against the design of any creatures found in the beastiary. Also, compare the claws evolution to the hooves evolution. If you can take multiple sets or claws that are all primary attacks than why would anyone take hooves? Too that end why couldn't hooves be a primary attack as they would be for a horse? The description says that claws could be swapped out for it. Seems to me that they rules should be that an Eidolon gets 1 primary attack evolution, bite, claws, hooves, rake, etc, and everything else is considered a second attack just as they would in the beastiary.

He's also giving the bite attach the full 1.5 strength bonus based on the evolution description, when the overall description indicates that that is only the case if it is their only attack. He took bite a second time to get the bonus, but gain that doesn't make sense since he already had it.

Finally, the DM allowed his Eidolon to have equipment, in this case an amulet of mighty fists +3 and a belt of physical perfection +2. It's a quadruped with a belt. Are there any rules for this? They are saying that since an Eidolon can look like anything the summoner wants it has a minotaur body with no arms so that it can wear the belt.

All I know is that this 9 hit die Eidolon could kick the ass of my level 12 fighter/rogue and that seems completely broken.

Personally I do hope to see class decks for monk, druid, paladin, barbarian, alchemist, etc. What if there was a rule or an unlockable where you could use cards from other class decks you own as well as the one for the character you're playing? Each class deck should have the minimum needed to play for just $20, but for those that want more choices they can use others. For instance Kyra is best with swords, but there are a limited amount of them in her deck. Buy a fighter deck and she'll be better equipped. It would encourage people to buy more without being a requirement. I'd be surprised if the devs haven't thought of this already.

Forgive me for providing constructive criticism about character design and balance. I love her concept, but I think she is very under powered when compared to the others like Kyra who can so more weapon damage and is also better at spells. I'm kind of feeling demonized here for analyzing the cards and providing a thoughtful opinion.

The Pathfinder card game is truly inspired. It really is a simplified version of the RPG experience in an refreshingly original format. I may complain about certain characters, but that is really just a demonstration of how much I like the game.

Flavor is great. I love flavor and that's what drew me to her in the first place, but that flavor could still be there while still making her effective. For instance if she got random cards of the current adventure level or lower she would have a chance to get great spells right away before she loses them. That's a lot of fun right there without making the ability useless. If she could recharge any spelling ever it would still have flavor and that first ability, even as it is now, would be very useful just for replenishing her deck. You can have flavor and be effective too. Yeah she is a fighter, but why can't she use higher level scrolls or have some limited natural talent?

Upon the realization that Flenta can never recharge any of her spells and can only use random basic spells I'd like to change my fighter vote to Vika. I think she is comparable to S&S Val and have more power options that I'd be interested in. Val can boost any of his checks, which is nice, but Vika and buff her own combat AND bash Locks and Obstacles down with her best die.

NjSoapdish wrote:

I don't see it as a big problem in standard play to be honest. She cycles through random base level spells and then when you get her arcane +2 for attack spells you get to keep them and still get free spells to add to your deck.

Unless I'm interpretting the power wrong, Flenta only gets the Arcane skill for the combat check. The skill will be gone by time the recharge check comes around, so she'll still banish any Attack spells she casts.

I do agree that Seltyiel's power pretty much crushes Flenta's as far as combat checks, but remember that his is only for combat checks and requires Attack spells in particular. Pretender Flenta's power works with any spell and you can upgrade it to boost non-combat checks as well.

I'm sorry, you're right. I assumed it worked like Damiel where you get it for that step. Yeah that makes her pretty crappy actually. A good chunk of her card list is dedicated to random first level spells.

Honestly I hope Paizo keeps an eye on these boards because I'm going to skip the fighter deck now, which I was really tempted to get for her. If the Arcane +2 lasted for the step, she got random arcane spells of any level, or even if her Arcane pretender role allowed you to auto recharge spells as well as items she would be a lot of fun. Oh well, missed opportunity.

Yes S&S Lem can buff himself from the start!

Since you've brought it up though I could use some clarification as well. Powers can be used once per check or once per step, right? So when casting a spell could Lem's power (or Lini from RotRL) work for both the arcane/divine check as well as the recharge check? It's an odd example of two checks existing in the same step.

I don't see it as a big problem in standard play to be honest. She cycles through random base level spells and then when you get her arcane +2 for attack spells you get to keep them and still get free spells to add to your deck. It just means she is an attack specialist in the same way that they alchemist only keeps non attack spells.

My only complaint is that the Magus has a similar motif, but is much more powerful.

NjSoapdish wrote:

I still don't know what all of you see in Seoni. She needs to be carried by a healer until she gets more spells.

No, she is either carried by a healer until she gets more spells... or she goes at everyone else's pace instead of the lightning whilrwind of locations' worst nightmares.

Have you seen a properly built Seoni? Two hastes, some tools for barriers, a bajillion in Charisma/fireball power, a ton of explore allies, particularly if she IS being supported by another character? I have a 2 player game with me as Lem and my friend (he's been at Basic for a while, so we haven't finished the AP yet) as Seoni. He turbos through the location decks like nobody's business. We have hardly any scouting (I think there's one Scrying in his deck) and we close 8 locations in half the Blessing Deck most games, and that's with us farming every location that has them for spells.

Seoni's a baus. Most powerful character from RotR after Lini.

Which is why I'm not a huge fan of the Sorcerers in general, but Amaryllis actually has 5 spells, which she can keep recharged all she wants. Seoni's 3 starting is just not enough. I tried playing her early on and I literally killed myself because I had to discard pretty much any time I encountered a monster and for unreliable damage. A basic attack spell does more than her base ability AND you can recharge it.

By that logic all the sorcerers do. We're just saying she's the best pick.

But in my opinion she's an absolute beast, but maybe not the best character for solo play. Especially as time goes by, she just wrecks encounters while still providing a lot of utility with her blessings and spells.

Which is why I'm not a huge fan of the Sorcerers in general, but Amaryllis actually has 5 spells, which she can keep recharged all she wants. Seoni's 3 starting is just not enough. I tried playing her early on and I literally killed myself because I had to discard pretty much any time I encountered a monster and for unreliable damage. A basic attack spell does more than her base ability AND you can recharge it.

I thought the OP wanted class deck picks, but everyone else listed RotRL and S&S stuff. In RotRL Lini and Sajan are my favorites and S&S has the best Lem, but the Magus is a beast. Can't wait to play him.

I still don't know what all of you see in Seoni. She needs to be carried by a healer until she gets more spells.

So I've been doing far too much number crunching on all of this stuff the last few days. got a massive spreadsheet and here's what I got for my top picks for class decks:

Bard: Lem. He's actually got a d12+2 for arcane and divine, meaning he's the most powerful dual caster out there. The rest of the bards are rubbish.

Cleric: I really like Heggal for his 1d4 to all checks, but I recently realized just what a beast Kyra can be. Although she is limited to swords she has even greater melee attack potential than any of the fighters and can explore whenever she beats someone. The only character that can top her in melee is the Magus. All of the clerics are very good though, which is why their deck should be a must buy.

Fighter: Valeros is probably the best, but Flenta just seems like so much fun.

Ranger: I like Agna actually. She can use her animal friends to cycle through locations and eventually also can get 1d4 to all checks. A druid that doesn't have to discard her hand for most combat checks? Yes please.

Rogue: Olenjack and Wu Shen sound fun, but this Merisiel is completely broken. Give her a longbow and she will make any combat check look like a joke.

Sorcerer: I actually really hate the original Seoni and the new one doesn't thrill me much more. She can't recharge the cards she discards and the damage on her base ability is less than she'd get form a lightning touch. You're just killing yourself for mediocre damage. I really like Amaryllis though! She has more spells, skills, and ties with Seoni for best arcane check. Please she gets extra attempts to recharge and can help you pass a check that you can't afford to fail.

Wizard: They all seem pretty balanced and interesting. I'm kind of torn between Melinda, who can actually competent with the weapons in her deck and gets bonus dice like a rogue or Radillo whom has a more reliable arcane check than Ezren, a great card list (lots of spells and no weapons when she wouldn't be good with them anyhow, unlike Ezren and Darago), and some fun abilities. I know Darago looks cool and all, but he's only great when you run into lots of undead, the undead would just clutter up your hand, and seriously why the hell are their 2 armor on his card list when he isn't even proficient with armor? Interesting, sure, but impractical.

To sum up: Lem, Kyra, Flenta, Agna, Merisiel, Amaryllis, and Radillo.

The way I read it there is not actual change. It says that the +'s are still part of the melee check. If anything this is probably more of a clarification for weapons like the longbow, which probably says strength die rather than base strength die. As usual with such things when you try to simplify it can get more confusing.

I was just going off the fact that witches are usually considered bad. She works better in the team though. Could use the necromancer instead though if you add in class decks.

Been toying around with team builds all day. Right now I kind of have a soft spot for goblin raider, witch, and war priest as a bad guy team. ;)

It is an interesting idea, which I worry I will now have to spend a good deal of time considering now. First of all it begs the question of what makes a group optimal. For me that means:
1. All characters should be able to consistently win combat checks. I put this first because I think a lot of characters fall short here. I like to have a total of 4 or 5 weapons and spells for this.
2. All abilities (str, dex, con, etc) should be covered by the group to ensure that any challenges can be overcome. Closing locations is a major part of the game and an optimal party should never have a problem with it.
3. All types of loot should be usable by the party, specifically arcane spells, divine spells, melee weapons, ranged weapons, light armor, and heavy armor. This means that the party can make effective use of loot and rewards. Also note that the overlap between the characters in your party should be minimal nothing worse than two guys fighting over the same sword.

Of course character powers come into play as well. If one character is week in combat or a particular skill isn't represented, but those can be boosted consistently than you can work around it.

I'd think the best thing would be to start with your absolute favorite character and choose someone to fill in their weaknesses, and than pick someone that covers what is left. I don't be really interested to see what people's optimal teams are and why.

I also don't like how the S&S characters are geared so specifically for the set. I'd expect some of that, but it make sit more difficult to use those characters for other sets if we decide to do so. I'm going to try out the base set, but I might cancel my subscription if it doesn't blow me away.

The bards all look like crap to me. None of them can reliably hold their own very well, which is a major draw back to this game.

I love at least one character in all of the others though with the cleric deck having four rock stars if you ask me.

The rangers look great aside form the half-orc, which annoys me. They are my favorite race in the RPG and yet they are treated like dumb monsters here. I'm really hoping monstrous races will get some cool stuff in the future! Maybe a half-orc barbarian or goblin alchemist in future class decks?

What I like here is the synergy between these cards and different characters. Poison can be useful to both rogues and alchemists for instance. It's nice to see that these cards are not super specialized.

Also the art for that rogue is amazing.

Could you release character sheets for the class decks? I'm tempted to get something, but it's impossible to make a truly informed decision at this point.