double vmc would you allow it?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I recently had an idea. Lol
Play a npc class and add 2 vmc classes to it. The normal 3,7,11,15,19 one and a second one that trades out your 1,5,9,13,& 17th level feats.
This character would only get what feats it's race and class grants so not many.
I don't see this being to over powering.

I would appreciate any thoughts on this idea.

I see this as a way to make a very flavorful but not overpowering character.


It's pretty much useless in that fashion.

That said, after I decided to give my table a free VMC, one of them asked if he could double-down and still burn half his feats for a second one. I said no. :P


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A free vmc.... nice


What's VMC?


Variant multi-classing from the Unchained book.

Dark Archive

fel_horfrost wrote:
Play a npc class and add 2 vmc classes to it. The normal 3,7,11,15,19 one and a second one that trades out your 1,5,9,13,& 17th level feats.

If they are giving up their feats for the VMC, why do they need to be an NPC class?


I think the only thing I MIGHT allow it for is Humans, and at the cost of their Racial Bonus Feat.

Humans get the short end of the stick compared to a lot of the half-human races; there's no reason to play a Human when Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Throwback Gillmen, or Scion of Humanity Aasimars are allowed, except for that bonus feat - and even THAT may or may not be terribly useful, honestly.

The old "Humans are kewl" mentality goes way back into the old days of 1st and 2nd Ed, where Humans were the only race that could freely multiclass.

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That being said, I wouldn't actually allow it for my games. Some VMCs are absolute garbage, and others are sick; putting two sick VMCs together could be fairly disastrous.


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chbgraphicarts wrote:

I think the only thing I MIGHT allow it for is Humans, and at the cost of their Racial Bonus Feat.

Humans get the short end of the stick compared to a lot of the half-human races; there's no reason to play a Human when Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Throwback Gillmen, or Scion of Humanity Aasimars are allowed, except for that bonus feat - and even THAT may or may not be terribly useful, honestly.

... Wait what.

That is literally the only time I have ever heard Humans describe as underpowered. Boring, yeah. Underpowered? Never.


kestral287 wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:

I think the only thing I MIGHT allow it for is Humans, and at the cost of their Racial Bonus Feat.

Humans get the short end of the stick compared to a lot of the half-human races; there's no reason to play a Human when Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Throwback Gillmen, or Scion of Humanity Aasimars are allowed, except for that bonus feat - and even THAT may or may not be terribly useful, honestly.

... Wait what.

That is literally the only time I have ever heard Humans describe as underpowered. Boring, yeah. Underpowered? Never.

I said "compared to a lot of the half-human races".

Humans are very good compared to all races without question, mostly because Human options are some of the best in the game, they gain a free Feat, and their stat bonus has no drawbacks.

But half-human races like the ones I mentioned ALSO get those options, also have the variable stat bonus with no drawback, and have abilities which either include feat-like effects or potentially better.

Half-Elves and Half-Orcs can each choose up to 3 different Racial Favored Class Bonuses (themselves, human, or elf/orc). Plus all the other Racial goodies like Feats, etc.

Scion of Humanity Aasimars are nuts; Human FCBs, Human Feats, etc. - PLUS Aasimar-only things like their FCBs, Aasimar-only Racial Archetypes, etc.

Throwback Gillmen are a surprisingly nasty little race as well: +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Wis means they're right in line with a number of classes like Paladin, Bloodrager, Oracle; they have a +2 bonus vs Enchantment-school spells & spell-like abilities, and only a minor weakness to Abolets (and what are the chances you'll run into Aboleths?)

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When given the choice to play a Human with Human options or a Half-Elf/Orc with Human options, you'll generally want to take the Half-Human option. Same thing for Aasimars and Gillmen if Scion of Humanity or Throwback are allowed.

Humans exist generally to either give players 1 extra Bonus Feat that's not Skill Focus or Exotic Weapon Proficiency, or to provide options to Half-Human or Human-descended races.

That's why I said giving Humans a fairly unique quality like allowing you to take double VMC for the price of removing their Bonus Feats would put them on the same level of use as the Half-Human/Human-descended races.


On that you and I are going to have to agree to disagree strenuously. The only time I take a hard look at Half-Orc is when a build has almost no feat needs and could use a save boost/can leverage Fate's Favored well (a rare combination, but it's my default Warpriest race). The only time I take a hard look at Half-Elf is if I need an exotic weapon proficiency (not Skill Focus; Human does that better).

Any other time, you hand me those three and I'm going to default Human.

I've literally never found a time when I wanted to default Aasimar. Scion of Humanity doesn't get the key parts of being Human and they're kind of mreh past that; a bunch of fairly strong abilities that don't synergize well and a bunch of feats that are only worth it if you're building a straight martial who has lots of spare feats and really needs to fly. I built one of them as a Paladin and got frustrated at the lack of useful options. Second Paladin build was Human.

I've literally never looked at Gillmen so no comment there.

Grand Lodge

Until I've worked with the standard variant more, I'm going to say no before I try a variant on that.


For certain characters it could be overpowered. For most it would probably be terrible.

For both reasons the answer should be no. Anything that doesn't need feats (like full casters) could probably do some big shenanigans with two VMC, but I don't know the system that well to come up with an example.


Taking one VMC probably gimps your character enough already.

Maybe on a fighter? But which 2 VMCs would you take on a fighter? Plus you are giving up what little utility your normal feats could get you (such as having a non-suck will save).

I guess you could take it with a wizard maybe, so you can grab Magus VMC and something else, but I can't think of what else to grab. Oracle maybe? Make a combat wizard?

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