TOZ, don't you mean this? :P
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Maybe Torch sold out? A member of the Decemvirate died and he was offered the position...all he had to do was ruin the Torch cares more then the Decemvirate rep he had and reinforce the only game in town is the Decemvirate. Now he hides behind a mask like the rest of them getting money , power, and influence.
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Well Count, you see... He kind of wore that on his sleeve. The Shadow Lodge's main purpose was to help people screwed by the Decemvirate, so Shadow Lodge members, most of them anyways... Would likely be on board with weakening the Ten. Actually, the original Shadow Lodge was meant as a means of OPPOSING the Ten, while the members later on we're there because they were likely burned by the Ten in some form or another.
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actually he wore helping individual pathfinders on his sleeve while destroying the Decemvirate was his personal goal (and hidden). I also believe that a large majority of people who were in the lodge would not help him destroy the society.
GMT: now is our time rise shadow lodge faction and help me destroy the Decemvirate.
Shadow lodge guy1: umm I am here for the free dental.
Shadow lodge guy2: yeah they actually gave us a snack lounge so I am alright with them.
GMT: what? forget this I am out of here.
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Grandmaster torch got burned (literally) by the machinations of the higher ups. Those machinations, whether from a venture captain or even one of the ten themselves, get people killed. That's bad for the society. Getting rid of management that does that is a good thing for the society as a whole, even if its probably not going to be pleasant for that high ranking individual.
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.. destroying the decemvirate and that would probably be bad for the society members.
Not so much, actually. From the start, GMT hated the PFS leadership because of something they did to him. We knew that it involved him being left for dead, being cursed with the constant painful burns, and that it also involved people he cared about dying.
He did have an issue with the PFS, but it was always the top, and through the early scenarios, he is actually written as giving a crap about these new blood, not wanting them to get killed.
I think the vast majority of the GMT is an evil jerk ideas comes from a combination of what scenarios people have played and more specifically how the DM's actually ran him in those scenarios. I wouldn't doubt some DM's added things and motivations that either where not described or where actually counter to what was written.
For instance, in Silent Tide, he is reticent to give the players info because it directly affects him financially, but if they can convince him it's for the greater good, he does so at a personal expense of 6,000gp. Heck, if they do a good job at it, he even pays them, too.
Heck, most of the early stuff where he is a big evil jerk, he wants the players to succeed, but to earn it, because he wants to have allies that are worth having.
In Many Fortunes of GMT, he is trying to scratch the PC's back while they scratch his in stopping something he honestly had no knowledge of until it was too late. Probably would have been a lot worse for al those innocents at the BRM if he hadn't stepped up in the first place. Off course, that's all DM only info, and the players never find out. Could have just sent a letter and walked away. Heck, he could have just pinned the whole ordeal on the PFS.
From the start, GMT was presented as hating the leadership of the PFS, but not the PFS or it's agents themselves. In fact, a lot of times he went out of his way or out of his pocket to help the low men and women on the pole. Partially for selfish reasons, sure.
But it's been pretty consistent that he wanted to get rid of the extremely toxic leadership in the Society, and he had personal experience with just how bad they where. It wasn't until Destiny of the Sands we finally get all the details. Not going to spoil it, though.
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That's strange. Everyone I know from my former Pathfinder Society group was a big fan of Torch, and was mystified and upset when he suddenly became a "bad guy" for no apparent reason and the Shadow Lodge went away - our primary DM at the time quit in protest because of it, in fact. We ran that final Scenario and let him get away without a fight.
On the other hand, some of us who have been playing since Season 0 were of the opinion that the whole "new" Shadow Lodge was a lie from the get-go.
Torch started as an information broker, or so it was claimed, charging outrageous amounts of money or favors for minor information that someone could probably pick up in the local bar, while claiming that if it was found out he supplied the information he would be ruined. Meh.
During Season 2, it was revealed that he was a member /leader of the anti-Pathfinder Society organization, but managed to tick off at least one of the other leaders, badly enough that they engaged the Red Mantis Assassins to go after him, multiple times.
He also betrayed some of the other members of the Shadow Lodge, even before it became an official Pathfinder Society faction.
So, given that history, seeing GMT as a benefactor of humanity, or even of the run-of-the-mill Pathfinder Society agent, was a loooong stretch.
His actions in the Shadow Lodge closer were, at least in my opinion, just him having run out of patience and energy to maintain his guileful face, and reverting to the same person who is trying to charge new adventurers more money than they could possibly have, for the sake of "his reputation". The charge amount is bogus, or he wouldn't settle for opening 3 boxes in its stead.
GMT, as player or GM, always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
And that all his information resources, that he is so proud of, couldn't come up with some way(s) to break the curse for him. Then again, getting Pathfinder Society agents to intimidate or blackmail your new agents probably doesn't help either their loyalty or nor the completeness of information that they will turn over to you...
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I think the vast majority of the GMT is an evil jerk ideas comes from a combination of what scenarios people have played and more specifically how the DM's actually ran him.
Well, since toz already read from the forbidden book...
Basically its when the good guys are considered the good guys just because they're the good guys, rather than anything they do. The antagonist is a bad guy just for opposing or even not helping you.
Torch doesn't want to help you for free. THAT FIEND! We're the heroes, why shouldn't he drop everything and give us.. that stuff he sells for a living for free because... because...we're the PCs? THATS the expectation players have for npcs. Thats what he falls short on, not any actual malevolence. He treated people like people rather than main characters.
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Basically its when the good guys are considered the good guys just because they're the good guys, rather than anything they do. The antagonist is a bad guy just for opposing or even not helping you.
Torch doesn't want to help you for free. THAT FIEND! We're the heroes, why shouldn't he drop everything and give us.. that stuff he sells for a living for free because... because...we're the PCs? THATS the expectation players have for npcs. Thats what he falls short on, not any actual malevolence. He treated people like people rather than main characters.
There is also the fact that he was a better Venture Captain/Mentor/Faction Head than anyone else in the whole dang PFS, actually 1.) knowing things and 2.) willing to share it to keep the rookies from getting killed. He made everyone else look bad.
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I think the vast majority of the GMT is an evil jerk ideas comes from a combination of what scenarios people have played and more specifically how the DM's actually ran him.Well, since toz already read from the forbidden book...
Basically its when the good guys are considered the good guys just because they're the good guys, rather than anything they do. The antagonist is a bad guy just for opposing or even not helping you.
Torch doesn't want to help you for free. THAT FIEND! We're the heroes, why shouldn't he drop everything and give us.. that stuff he sells for a living for free because... because...we're the PCs? THATS the expectation players have for npcs. Thats what he falls short on, not any actual malevolence. He treated people like people rather than main characters.
I don't object to paying a reasonable fee, but, if you look, his starting price is usually not even in the same ballpark as sanity. And his end price makes dealing with Asmodeus the lesser of two evils.
Yeah, honest and aboveboard. Not.
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My personal theory is that GMT is the Emerald Gem Sage. Either he didn't fully bond with the Gem or more likely the Gem was broken when he originally found it, and that's where his curse comes from. The incomplete bonding is literally burning his body away.
In all actuality, he was directly responsible for unearthing and allowing the Jeweled Sage order to return, though it took years. Now that he has it back, and now that he is actually worthy of the position, (he was a youngblood the first time), it might just work, or he might just have the resources and allies to fix the Gem. Amenopheus is beginning to suspect this, having a pretty long, and generally good relationship with GMT, while Tahonikepsu probably knows for sure.
This might explain why GMT hasn't destroyed the Decemvirate, he found something more important and they just are not worth his time any longer.
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wait the information broker having more information than others? Yes he may of had some more info than others but that was literally his job also people seem to forget that he attacked the society killing agents with his first incarnation of the shadow lodge (he betrayed them). He also wanted to destroy the leadership of the society something that one of the largest groups (grand lodge) pledges support for I don't see how opposing one of the largest factions is helping the society.
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wait the information broker having more information than others? Yes he may of had some more info than others but that was literally his job also people seem to forget that he attacked the society killing agents with his first incarnation of the shadow lodge (he betrayed them). He also wanted to destroy the leadership of the society something that one of the largest groups (grand lodge) pledges support for I don't see how opposing one of the largest factions is helping the society.
"We're teleporting you on top of a mountain!
"Ok.
*BAMPH*
GAAAAAASSSSP
"Oh, did i forget to mention it was one of those ones so high up you can't breathe? My bad. Well, have fun storming the castle
*bamph*
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wait the information broker having more information than others? Yes he may of had some more info than others but that was literally his job also people seem to forget that he attacked the society killing agents with his first incarnation of the shadow lodge (he betrayed them). He also wanted to destroy the leadership of the society something that one of the largest groups (grand lodge) pledges support for I don't see how opposing one of the largest factions is helping the society."We're teleporting you on top of a mountain!
"Ok.
*BAMPH*
GAAAAAASSSSP
"Oh, did i forget to mention it was one of those ones so high up you can't breathe? My bad. Well, have fun storming the castle
*bamph*
hmm I seem to be forgetting what mission this is
also @ Beckett I always thought he was getting those gems to make himself more powerful after seeing the list of names from the ten. Also to get at the former leader of the Osirion faction for stabbing him in the back.
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I don't object to paying a reasonable fee, but, if you look, his starting price is usually not even in the same ballpark as sanity. And his end price makes dealing with Asmodeus the lesser of two evils.
"Hi! I am going to charge you money to tell you who I sold magical items I had already gotten paid for by the Pathfinder Society to , and I am not even refunding the money the Society gave me for the items I cheated you on to begin with."
Honestly, sounds like a prime example of a DM adding things that where not there or running him poorly.
I should also point out the GMT is trying very hard to not have his name tarnished for selling items he honestly didn't know where cursed, which is the exact same thing the PFS is doing. They, too, have not gotten the information that these items are cursed and responsible for a lot of deaths, and GMT knows they do not know. And once again, this is all DM only info.
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also @ Beckett I always thought he was getting those gems to make himself more powerful after seeing the list of names from the ten. Also to get at the former leader of the Osirion faction for stabbing him in the back.
It's possible. Like I said, just a personal theory. He has hands on experience with the subject matter, and it's possible he might know more about history than the other two, even with her being what she is.
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That is not what I understood from the way the Spider turned on him. Maybe I misread the scenarios.
But this has nothing to do with his ethnicity.
My understanding is that she and all the other "false" Shadow Lodge cells actually did want to destroy the PFS completely. They had kind of gone dark side, wanting to burn it all, while he wanted to get his vengeance on those few that deserved it, but not continue the cycle of becoming them by killing other innocent agents.
Because it was originally pretty much autonomous cells with a very general belief, (vengeance on those that hurt us), different cell leaders kind of did their own thing, while PFS agents through sheer luck, murdered most of the others that would have become as much of a threat as the Spider.
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My personal theory is that GMT is the Emerald Gem Sage. Either he didn't fully bond with the Gem or more likely the Gem was broken when he originally found it, and that's where his curse comes from. The incomplete bonding is literally burning his body away.
In all actuality, he was directly responsible for unearthing and allowing the Jeweled Sage order to return, though it took years. Now that he has it back, and now that he is actually worthy of the position, (he was a youngblood the first time), it might just work, or he might just have the resources and allies to fix the Gem. Amenopheus is beginning to suspect this, having a pretty long, and generally good relationship with GMT, while Tahonikepsu probably knows for sure.
This might explain why GMT hasn't destroyed the Decemvirate, he found something more important and they just are not worth his time any longer.
This is very close to my what me personal theory has been -- but I like the details of yours better, so I'm going to start believing yours. :)
The real question is...after he takes leadership of the Scarab Sages, which faction does he move to take over next? I think the Exchange would be the easiest, but the Dark Archive would give him more power.
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Grandmaster torch got burned (literally) by the machinations of the higher ups. Those machinations, whether from a venture captain or even one of the ten themselves, get people killed. That's bad for the society. Getting rid of management that does that is a good thing for the society as a whole, even if its probably not going to be pleasant for that high ranking individual.
Thats assuming the higher ups are even human with rational scholarly goals. For all we know the Decemvirate are 10 different monsters/cultist with 10 different goals waiting for the moment someone brings back a report that goes "Hey we found out how to free Rovagug/WhisperingTyrant" or some other horrible thing.
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Grandmaster torch got burned (literally) by the machinations of the higher ups. Those machinations, whether from a venture captain or even one of the ten themselves, get people killed. That's bad for the society. Getting rid of management that does that is a good thing for the society as a whole, even if its probably not going to be pleasant for that high ranking individual.Thats assuming the higher ups are even human with rational scholarly goals. For all we know the Decemvirate are 10 different monsters/cultist with 10 different goals waiting for the moment someone brings back a report that goes "Hey we found out how to free Rovagug/WhisperingTyrant" or some other horrible thing.
This is my second theory, right behind all of the Decemvirate all being veiled master aboleths.
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I also remember about half the Shadow Lodge agents fought in scenarios could be reasoned with, at least a little. There were plenty that fought to the death, but more than a few would talk things out when they knew they were beaten.
Shadow lodge agent: "For the shadow lodge!"
Players: "OH! Hi. We're local 2238! We got some Taldan bath salts for torch, and coffee and doughnuts for the meeting. AWWWW! You brought a puppy!
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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He's betrayed the society at least twice, and has expended a fair amount of effort to bring them down.
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Actually in my game...
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My personal theory is that GMT is the Emerald Gem Sage. Either he didn't fully bond with the Gem or more likely the Gem was broken when he originally found it, and that's where his curse comes from. The incomplete bonding is literally burning his body away.
In all actuality, he was directly responsible for unearthing and allowing the Jeweled Sage order to return, though it took years. Now that he has it back, and now that he is actually worthy of the position, (he was a youngblood the first time), it might just work, or he might just have the resources and allies to fix the Gem. Amenopheus is beginning to suspect this, having a pretty long, and generally good relationship with GMT, while Tahonikepsu probably knows for sure.
This might explain why GMT hasn't destroyed the Decemvirate, he found something more important and they just are not worth his time any longer.
This is very close to my what me personal theory has been -- but I like the details of yours better, so I'm going to start believing yours. :)
The real question is...after he takes leadership of the Scarab Sages, which faction does he move to take over next? I think the Exchange would be the easiest, but the Dark Archive would give him more power.
I figure he already has the Darkive, and the similarities in the Faction Symbols is simply his way of passing a secret message to those that are still loyal to the True Lodge, knowing for a fact that the PFS leadership and the Decemvirate have a 0% chance of figuring even that simple enigma out. :P
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Venture-Agent, Missouri—St. Louis
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This is very close to my what me personal theory has been -- but I like the details of yours better, so I'm going to start believing yours. :)My personal theory is that GMT is the Emerald Gem Sage. Either he didn't fully bond with the Gem or more likely the Gem was broken when he originally found it, and that's where his curse comes from. The incomplete bonding is literally burning his body away.
In all actuality, he was directly responsible for unearthing and allowing the Jeweled Sage order to return, though it took years. Now that he has it back, and now that he is actually worthy of the position, (he was a youngblood the first time), it might just work, or he might just have the resources and allies to fix the Gem. Amenopheus is beginning to suspect this, having a pretty long, and generally good relationship with GMT, while Tahonikepsu probably knows for sure.
This might explain why GMT hasn't destroyed the Decemvirate, he found something more important and they just are not worth his time any longer.
Yeah, this is probably pretty close to true. Especially with what you find out in Beacon Below:
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Grandmaster torch got burned (literally) by the machinations of the higher ups. Those machinations, whether from a venture captain or even one of the ten themselves, get people killed. That's bad for the society. Getting rid of management that does that is a good thing for the society as a whole, even if its probably not going to be pleasant for that high ranking individual.
Ummm. No he did not get burned by the machinations of the upper levels of the Society.
He got burned because he ignored, as soooo many Pathfinders do, the warning, "This place is dangerous. Be careful. Unfortunately, because of issues between the Society and local government, we are not going to be able to support you if you screw up too badly. So, DON'T SCREW UP!"
Guess what? Ven and his team managed to screw up. Pretty damn badly, in fact. I have seen that level of screwing up in only one of the many scenarios I have played and GMed in, and that was a group infiltrating a city in Irrisen, staying around and fighting the ever-mounting numbers of local guards, instead of taking off quickly. And even that only ended up with one member of the group arrested, the rest finally figuring it out and fleeing.
Ven's group managed to set off a bunch of traps, including the one that hurt him. How is a group, warned that they are going someplace dangerous, not to blame when they don't take that warning seriously?
Neither the Venture Captain, nor the Decemvirate can hold your hand while you are on a mission, and having perfect knowledge means either the mission is not required, or they have other assets that could do the mission safer than you could. And that includes GMT, whose information sources could have performed the mission while gathering the information that kept you safe...
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^^^
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ven's beef with the Decemvirate that they sent him to a dangerous place but didn't provide an extraction when things went sour due to diplomatic sensitivities?
From what I've read, it seems that VL was sent with the forewarning that due to the delicate nature of the mission, he would be cut off in the event of a mishap. If he was sent fully warned of that, and went on the mission nonetheless, then got pissed off that things went pear-shaped, I can't see him having a justifiable reason for being upset. I mean, I can see why he would be angry, but it's like signing up for the Waking Rune on hard mode, then complaining that it was too hard.
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^^^
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ven's beef with the Decemvirate that they sent him to a dangerous place but didn't provide an extraction when things went sour due to diplomatic sensitivities?From what I've read, it seems that VL was sent with the forewarning that due to the delicate nature of the mission, he would be cut off in the event of a mishap. If he was sent fully warned of that, and went on the mission nonetheless, then got pissed off that things went pear-shaped, I can't see him having a justifiable reason for being upset. I mean, I can see why he would be angry, but it's like signing up for the Waking Rune on hard mode, then complaining that it was too hard.
Thanien’s body is in area B11. He slipped away from the group while they were gathering water, found the gems in area B12, and was caught in an argument with Ven and Asha when they came looking for him and found him trying to hide his discovery. The Emerald Sage chose that moment to attack, and Thanien triggered a lethal trap as he fled.
Kiras’s body is located in area B7. He was left to finish refilling the group’s waterskins and then began tampering with the carving on the east wall, prompting the water elemental to attack. The elemental kept him there as a companion until he eventually starved to death. He died cursing his companions for abandoning him.
Rosarra fell to her death from the bridge in area B10. She was examining the obelisk when the haunt activated. Confused by the visions and terrified of the spirits, she blindly stumbled into the chasm.
Asha was Ven Lorovox’s protégé. The two of them discovered Thanien examining the bodies of the Jeweled Sages and their gems and confronted him their mission’s real goals. They were caught off guard when the spirit of the Emerald Sage manifested, entrancing them with its maddening babble. It struck Ven with a curse, which enabled Asha to regain her senses and drag her companion back to the entry hall. The allip pursued, and a stray spell shattered a pillar that crushed Asha—but not before she could shove Ven out of the way. He stumbled into area B9, and the last Asha heard was the pained scream of her companion.
Yet, in GMT's mind, it was obviously the fault of the Pathfinder Society that Thanien was a non-communicative SOB. Should I include "diseased" as a qualifier for GMT in the sentence before this one? Or maybe just vindictive, obsessed, and "focused".
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Sounds like Torch had the blame squarely on the right people.
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** spoiler omitted **
On whose orders? Sure Thaniel is to blame, but he's dead. Can't punish him any further.
The Decemvirate however, are still around, and still to blame for poor leadership.
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Myself, I think Thanien is to blame for not telling his party, not the Society.
After all, if the party doesn't know that they aren't supposed to spread the word, what would stop them from seeking and telling afterwards?
I mean, seriously, you aren't going to tell the BARD that you need to be surreptitious? Bards are, by definition, only going to be sneaky if they are informed that they need to be.
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But as I understand it, the party DID know that Osirion was a no-fly zone. They just didn't know the REAL reason they were at that tomb. Like so many other scenarios, they got sent into danger without the tools to succeed, and were left out to dry. By the Decemvirate. Always by the Decemvirate, or the Venture Captains.