Best Average Damage Weapons

[Caryth Derellis]

Hi there. I am sure there is a thread for this already. Probably numerous, I would think. However, I admit unabashedly that I am too lazy to look for them... :D

That being said, I am wondering what the best average damage weapons are for:

Two handers (top 2)

1 handers (top 2)

and ranged weapons (top 2)

I am thinking in terms of raw average damage, no feats or specials attached to this number.

Thanks in advance!

[Chemlak]

When you say "no feats or specials" are we to assume this means no exotic weapons, since you need a feat to use them? The answer changes depending on this.

[Caryth Derellis]

Chemlak wrote:

When you say "no feats or specials" are we to assume this means no exotic weapons, since you need a feat to use them? The answer changes depending on this.

Please assume that appropriate weapon proficiencies have been acquired for the purpose of this discussion. :D

[kestral287]

Depends on what your static damage modifier is.

There are break points between when you go with a larger raw number of dice or a better crit range.

In turn that also depends on your size-- due to the way size changes affect dice, it makes the bigger dice weapons (which tend to have smaller crit ranges) more useful for a longer time. I.E., for a Medium creature, scimitar almost always beats longsword, but for a Large creature that change is far slower to kick in.

As a general rule, if you find the best crit range weapon in your given category, for a PC it's probably the best option.

With more specific numbers, or which categories of weapons (light/one-hand/two-hand and simple/martial/exotic) you care about better data can be provided, but those are the two general points.

[Caryth Derellis]

Ok so I has thinking specifically about a great axe vs. great sword vs. falchion.

Anyone have numbers on these for say, an 18 of str?

[Caryth Derellis]

As a side note, I am wondering if slashing grace provides 1.5 dex bonus while using a 2 hander? If so, it follows that this damage is multiplied on a critical in the same fashion that strength is.

Edit:

Come to think of it, I think Slashing Grace is only for 1 handed/light. Woops.

[kestral287]

Greatsword beats Greataxe at any static bonus by a margin of ~.5 damage.

At 18 Str Greatsword beats Falchion. Break point there will be when your static modifier equals +37; at that point you want a falchion over a greatsword.

Keen/Improved Critical also kicks in, since I forgot to mention it. At a static damage modifier of +18 falchion and greatsword are equal when both are Keen; higher you want falchion, lower you want greatsword.

The Nodachi, however, will beat the Falchion 100% of the time just as greatsword beats greataxe. Subbing that in, we get our break point at +26, or +12 if Keen is in play.

[Kudaku]

Caryth Derellis wrote:

As a side note, I am wondering if slashing grace provides 1.5 dex bonus while using a 2 hander? If so, it follows that this damage is multiplied on a critical in the same fashion that strength is.

Edit:

Come to think of it, I think Slashing Grace is only for 1 handed/light. Woops.

It's worse than that actually, Slashing Grace does not work with light weapons.

I'm fairly confident the Falcata outperforms everything else in the 1h category.

[Seranov]

Pretty sure Falcata outperforms everything in the 2H category, too. As a downside, it doesn't get anything like reach or other weapon properties, which plenty of 2H weapons have.

[kestral287]

Falcata will beat Greatsword and Nodachi both at +22 static damage. A mere +10 if Keen.

Against one-handers, it beats the scimitar, longsword, katana, estoc, rapier, and any other weapon that has a 1d8 die or lower 100% of the time. It slaughters the Bastard Sword as well, with the break point between them at a mere +6 static damage (higher you go Falacata, lower what are you doing with a weapon in your hand), or +2 if Keen.

[Chemlak]

Large bastard sword. Your to hit suffers, but 2d8 damage is nothing to sneeze at.

[kestral287]

Chemlak wrote:

Large bastard sword. Your to hit suffers, but 2d8 damage is nothing to sneeze at.

Actually loses pretty quickly; a Greatsword's going to be superior almost all of the time.

Keen Falcata vs. Impact Bastard Sword doesn't even end well for the Bastard Sword; it loses come +12 static damage.

Keen Impact Falcata vs. Keen Impact Bastard Sword has its break point at +5 static damage.

Throwing Impact on one of the two-handers makes life more interesting. Somebody remind me what an Impact Nodachi's dice wind up at?

[Seranov]

1d10 goes to 2d8, iirc.

[Caryth Derellis]

Is there a way to gain proficiency with a falcata without expending a feat?

[Kudaku]

Race, feat, class dip, or money . Pick your poison.

I'm not aware of a deity that has the falcata as a favored weapon. If one exists, that opens up a lot of options.

[kestral287]

Caryth Derellis wrote:

Is there a way to gain proficiency with a falcata without expending a feat?

Be a Half-Elf or Tengu, worship a deity who has it as a favored weapon (I can't name any off-hand, but there's probably one) and play as an Inquisitor, Cleric, or Warpriest, or be a Kensai.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Caryth Derellis wrote:

Hi there. I am sure there is a thread for this already. Probably numerous, I would think. However, I admit unabashedly that I am too lazy to look for them... :D

That being said, I am wondering what the best average damage weapons are for:

Two handers (top 2)

1 handers (top 2)

and ranged weapons (top 2)

I am thinking in terms of raw average damage, no feats or specials attached to this number.

Thanks in advance!

Two handers (top 2): for most damage/attack, that would be an over-sized Bastard Sword, which a medium-sized character proficient in Bastard sword can strike for 2d8, suffering a -2 penalty to the attack.

for 2nd place, I think it's a tie between the Greatsword and the Earthbreaker hammer: 2d6 each.

For 1-handed weapons, I would say Bastard Sword and Scizore, both do 1d10. The Bastard Sword is an Exotic Weapon, and the Scizore is a Martial, and the Scizore grants a +1 Shield Bonus to AC, but the Scizore wielder suffers a -1 to attack.

Ranged: Heavy Crossbow: 1d10
The Culverin Scatter Gun: 2c8

more later

[Seranov]

No deity gives proficiency with the falcata (because nobody would worship anything else!*) so Warpriest is out. Kensai works, though.

*:

Yes, I am kidding. Obviously people will still worship other deities, but none of them provide a weapon even close to as good as the falcata.

[kestral287]

^Literally all of those are wrong, or at least ignoring the most important weapon statistic for damage.

Longbows are far and above the best ranged weapon outside of guns, and since guns are feat and class feature dependent they're not realistic considerations here. With a mere 12 Strength, an Adaptive Longbow beats a Heavy Crossbow.

Falcatas beat everything one-handed handily, and at most damage bonuses most two-handers.

[Caryth Derellis]

Is there any way to force a critical threat? I ask because I want to make a paladin "righteous executioner" around the concept of dealing single, very lethal blows combining 2h str, impact weapon, power attack, smite evil, crits, etc.

I know that generally using a high-threat range weapon is a reliable choice. I really enjoy rolling crits, even if they are sacrificing multiplier for range.

[kestral287]

Caryth Derellis wrote:

Is there any way to force a critical threat? I ask because I want to make a paladin "righteous executioner" around the concept of dealing single, very lethal blows combining 2h str, impact weapon, power attack, smite evil, crits, etc.

A couple, but they're generally class abilities at the medium-to-high levels.

If you're using Combat Stamina, Improved Critical's Combat Trick allows you to spend stamina to artificially extend your crit range (if you miss a threat by 3 or less, you spend 5 stamina, roll to confirm the crit, if you confirm you do double damage).

Also Coup-de-Grace, if you can find a way to set that up as a Paladin.

[Caryth Derellis]

kestral287 wrote:

Caryth Derellis wrote:

Is there any way to force a critical threat? I ask because I want to make a paladin "righteous executioner" around the concept of dealing single, very lethal blows combining 2h str, impact weapon, power attack, smite evil, crits, etc.

A couple, but they're generally class abilities at the medium-to-high levels.

If you're using Combat Stamina, Improved Critical's Combat Trick allows you to spend stamina to artificially extend your crit range (if you miss a threat by 3 or less, you spend 5 stamina, roll to confirm the crit, if you confirm you do double damage).

Interesting. Is this a new system? Where can I find information of this?

[Imbicatus]

Caryth Derellis wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

Caryth Derellis wrote:

Is there any way to force a critical threat? I ask because I want to make a paladin "righteous executioner" around the concept of dealing single, very lethal blows combining 2h str, impact weapon, power attack, smite evil, crits, etc.

A couple, but they're generally class abilities at the medium-to-high levels.

If you're using Combat Stamina, Improved Critical's Combat Trick allows you to spend stamina to artificially extend your crit range (if you miss a threat by 3 or less, you spend 5 stamina, roll to confirm the crit, if you confirm you do double damage).

Interesting. Is this a new system? Where can I find information of this?

Pathfinder Unchained. It will be up on the PRD eventually.

[kestral287]

Fairly new, yes. The 20pfsrd might have the stuff by now, but it's a big enough system that I'm unsure. It's from Pathfinder Unchained, and the PDF is fairly cheap.

Totally optional and not PFS-legal though, for what that's worth.

[Imbicatus]

Kudaku wrote:

It's worse than that actually, Slashing Grace does not work with light weapons.

For now. The Stamina unlock for Slashing Grace strongly suggests that it does, or will post-errata.

[Scott Wilhelm]

But the very most damaging Ranged Weapons

Heavy Catapult: 6d6

Fiend's Mouth Cannon: 8d6

[Blackwaltzomega]

Seranov wrote:

No deity gives proficiency with the falcata (because nobody would worship anything else!*) so Warpriest is out. Kensai works, though.

** spoiler omitted **

Still, could you imagine a Crusader's Flurry with a Keen Falcata? Hah, that'd get pretty wacky.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Caryth Derellis wrote:

Is there any way to force a critical threat? I ask because I want to make a paladin "righteous executioner" around the concept of dealing single, very lethal blows combining 2h str, impact weapon, power attack, smite evil, crits, etc.

I know that generally using a high-threat range weapon is a reliable choice. I really enjoy rolling crits, even if they are sacrificing multiplier for range.

You could use a Maul of the Titans and take the Great Sunder Feat. That's not Critting, but it is a force multiplier, triple damage vs. inanimate objects, and with Greater Sunder, the residual damage after destroying the weapon or armor or whatever will pass to the wielder.

I have other ideas for force mulitpliers, but the are even less like critting.

[Kudaku]

Imbicatus wrote:

Kudaku wrote:

It's worse than that actually, Slashing Grace does not work with light weapons.

For now. The Stamina unlock for Slashing Grace strongly suggests that it does, or will post-errata.

I know, I was the one who first pointed out the Stamina Unlock in the Unchained thread. :)

But until the errata is released Slashing Grace doesn't work with light weapons - it's better to point that out early and avoid the headache rather than build a complete character around Slashing Grace and then have it shot down by a rules-conscientious GM or a PFS game. The second the ACG errata (hopefully) fixes Slashing Grace I'll be shouting it from the rooftops. :)

[Imbicatus]

Kudaku wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Kudaku wrote:

It's worse than that actually, Slashing Grace does not work with light weapons.

For now. The Stamina unlock for Slashing Grace strongly suggests that it does, or will post-errata.

I know, I was the one who first pointed out the Stamina Unlock in the Unchained thread. :)

But until the errata is released Slashing Grace doesn't work with light weapons - it's better to point that out early and avoid the headache rather than build a complete character around Slashing Grace and then have it shot down by a rules-conscientious GM or a PFS game. The second the ACG errata (hopefully) fixes Slashing Grace I'll be shouting it from the rooftops. :)

Good point. I am just avoiding the issue by making my PFS dex-fighter an unchained rogue.

[Scott Wilhelm]

kestral287 wrote:

^Literally all of those are wrong, or at least ignoring the most important weapon statistic for damage.

Longbows are far and above the best ranged weapon outside of guns, and since guns are feat and class feature dependent they're not realistic considerations here. With a mere 12 Strength, an Adaptive Longbow beats a Heavy Crossbow.

Falcatas beat everything one-handed handily, and at most damage bonuses most two-handers.

I like long composite bows better than crossbows, too. But the OP asked which weapons had the highest average base damage/hit, not which are the best overall weapons.

I don't see the allure of Falcatas. And personally, I think crit builds are overrated. Although I have trouble gauging their real value, and that in and of itself is a big reason why I don't like them.

[Gregory Connolly]

I find this interesting, but not all that useful. I tend to play casters so worry about arm and anvil stuff rather than DPR usually. Is there anywhere that discusses DPR and the effects of common feats, weapon choices, magic and why the ones that are considered good are considered good?

I struggle trying to figure out things like whether to use a falcata or a bastard sword on a vital strike build. Is there some kind of guide like a class guide to DPR?

[Snowblind]

Gregory Connolly wrote:

I find this interesting, but not all that useful. I tend to play casters so worry about arm and anvil stuff rather than DPR usually. Is there anywhere that discusses DPR and the effects of common feats, weapon choices, magic and why the ones that are considered good are considered good?

I struggle trying to figure out things like whether to use a falcata or a bastard sword on a vital strike build. Is there some kind of guide like a class guide to DPR?

The DPR olympics and the DPR summer olympics threads are your best bet.

Ultimately though the entire thing really comes down to some formulas and statistics. All you have to do to compare is run the numbers in either case and compare. The most complicated it can get is if you want to find the break even point for weapon comparisons where one is better at lower levels and the other higher levels or things like that, which involves high school algebra. Still easy to do.

[Chess Pwn]

with vital strike you want the highest damage die, but your biggest issue is you're using vital strike.

[Imbicatus]

Gregory Connolly wrote:

I find this interesting, but not all that useful. I tend to play casters so worry about arm and anvil stuff rather than DPR usually. Is there anywhere that discusses DPR and the effects of common feats, weapon choices, magic and why the ones that are considered good are considered good?

I struggle trying to figure out things like whether to use a falcata or a bastard sword on a vital strike build. Is there some kind of guide like a class guide to DPR?

I don't know about a guide, but vital strike is generally a poor choice if you care about DPR, regardless of weapon.

If you have the biggest weapon you can hold, such as a large bastard sword or a greatsword, and stack size increases, such as lead blades + enlarge, then Vital Strike can be useful, especially with the furious finish rage power or with Greater Weapon of the chosen to increase your accuracy and crit chance.

It's also good for druids who take the form of a behemoth hippo or a carnivorous crystal ooze.

Otherwise, you will be better off with a full attack.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

You could use a Maul of the Titans and take the Great Sunder Feat.

Curious - do you find it worth the extra cost considering that it's an inferior base weapon and you can't make it adamantine?

[Snowblind]

Chess Pwn wrote:

with vital strike you want the highest damage die, but your biggest issue is you're using vital strike and you aren't abusing polymorph effects for 16d8 bite attacks at level 8.

Fixed that for you.

[kestral287]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I like long composite bows better than crossbows, too. But the OP asked which weapons had the highest average base damage/hit, not which are the best overall weapons.

I don't see the allure of Falcatas. And personally, I think crit builds are overrated. Although I have trouble gauging their real value, and that in and of itself is a big reason why I don't like them.

"Highest average damage" =/= "highest base damage".

There will be a break point of when a heavy catapult will be better than a longbow, and yes, there is actually will be some set of static damage when that's the case.

It will be exceedingly low.

As for falcatas-- pretty straightforward. The allure is that they deliver more damage than any other weapon in the game.

Gregory Connolly wrote:

I find this interesting, but not all that useful. I tend to play casters so worry about arm and anvil stuff rather than DPR usually. Is there anywhere that discusses DPR and the effects of common feats, weapon choices, magic and why the ones that are considered good are considered good?

I struggle trying to figure out things like whether to use a falcata or a bastard sword on a vital strike build. Is there some kind of guide like a class guide to DPR?

Eh... not really anything in guide form, but it tends to boil down to some fairly simple tenants:

1. Broader crit ranges are better, and better broader crit ranges are best. If you crit 20% of the time for double damage, then accounting for the 5% miss chance you deal 115% of your base damage on average. If you crit 20% of the time for triple damage, accounting for the miss chance that's an average 135% of your base damage.

There's no single feat or enhancement that will consistently add 20% to your base damage-- save for upgrading your longsword to a falcata.

2. If you're trading damage for accuracy, it should be on a 2:1 scale. The reason the oversized bastard sword strategy is weak is because it trades -2 to hit for +2 damage (as compared to a greatsword). This is below our golden 2:1 ratio, so you're generally better off in damage output with a greatsword.

By contrast, the reason Power Attack tends to be preferred is that it usually offers a 3:1 exchange rate, which is very strong.

This is why TWF is mechanically the strongest melee style if you can solve its issues in things like stat and gold costs: you trade -2 to hit for (more or less) x2 to damage.

3. More attacks are almost always better than less attacks. This seems obvious-- and it is-- but this right here is why Haste is considered so very good. Hitting at +11/+6/+1 as a full martial gives you one attack that's almost certainly going to hit, one attack that's probably going to hit, and one attack that's pretty much crit-fishing. Hitting at +11/+11/+6/+1, while only adding going from three attacks to four, will often represent a damage increase closer to 50% than the 33% that it can look on paper.

And in turn this is why Vital Strike is weak. A martial who's really, really invested in his weapon's damage die can use an oversized Growing Impact Bastard Sword and get a 4D8 weapon. If he uses Vital Strike, then, he'll boost that by another 4D8, which averages to 4.5*4=18 damage.

But in exchange, he gives up his second attack, which if it connects is worth a minimum of 18 damage in its own right, and probably far more when we factor in Strength bonuses and such-- if we assume those static damage numbers are also a +18 (probably fairly conservative for a two-handing martial at level 6 or 7), then Vital Strike only looks better if his second attack would hit less than 50% of the time, which should not be the case for a full martial's first iterative. And while his static damage will scale up, and thus push the value of Vital Strike down, Vital Strike's gains are fixed at that 4D8 for him.

I can go deeper into things if you have specific questions, but those are really three of the core tenants that will provide the reasoning behind most of the stuff that's commonly considered either really good or really bad.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

You could use a Maul of the Titans and take the Great Sunder Feat.

Curious - do you find it worth the extra cost considering that it's an inferior base weapon and you can't make it adamantine?

Personally, no, not in PFS, but I might bounce just such a Sundering build off a DM running his or her own campaign.

I would customize it using Master Craftman or the 3.5 Feat Ancestral Relic, exploiting the rules describing partial enchantments and adding enchantments, using as a base an adamantine Earthbreaker instead of a masterwork greatclub, making it +1 instead of +3 to save money, and combining the Shatterspike enchantment with it.

It's elaborate and requires extensive vetting with a GM, so you might not want to hear the whole thing.

Meanwhile, once again, the OP was not asking me for what I thought was best, but for force mulitpliers, particularly regarding Critting, but I thought it was worthwhile and food-for-thought to bring this up, too.

you wrote:

Curious

So hopefully at least you found it worthwhile food-for-thought.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Imbicatus wrote:

Gregory Connolly wrote:

I find this interesting, but not all that useful. I tend to play casters so worry about arm and anvil stuff rather than DPR usually. Is there anywhere that discusses DPR and the effects of common feats, weapon choices, magic and why the ones that are considered good are considered good?

I struggle trying to figure out things like whether to use a falcata or a bastard sword on a vital strike build. Is there some kind of guide like a class guide to DPR?

I don't know about a guide, but vital strike is generally a poor choice if you care about DPR, regardless of weapon.

If you have the biggest weapon you can hold, such as a large bastard sword or a greatsword, and stack size increases, such as lead blades + enlarge, then Vital Strike can be useful, especially with the furious finish rage power or with Greater Weapon of the chosen to increase your accuracy and crit chance.

It's also good for druids who take the form of a behemoth hippo or a carnivorous crystal ooze.

Otherwise, you will be better off with a full attack.

I think that's right most of the time, but if you are up against creatures with high DR, Vital Strike might be better than a Full Attack.

Snowblind wrote:

with vital strike you want the highest damage die, but your biggest issue is you're using vital strike and you aren't abusing polymorph effects for 16d8 bite attacks at level 8.

Ooh, now I want to work Vital Strike into my Triceratops build! Snowblind, did you just re-word ChessPwn's quote then re-attribute it to him? If that's what you did, that's a jerk move, and I don't approve.

[Chess Pwn]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Snowblind wrote:

with vital strike you want the highest damage die, but your biggest issue is you're using vital strike and you aren't abusing polymorph effects for 16d8 bite attacks at level 8.

Ooh, now I want to work Vital Strike into my Triceratops build! Snowblind, did you just re-word ChessPwn's quote then re-attribute it to him? If that's what you did, that's a jerk move, and I don't approve.

No he was alright, A completely valid statement that I approve of.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Kestral wrote:

There will be a break point of when a heavy catapult will be better than a longbow, and yes, there is actually will be some set of static damage when that's the case.

It will be exceedingly low.

Once again, while you might be right that longbows are better than catapults, the OP wasn't asking for that. I was giving him the information he asked for, not what I thought was best.

Caryth Derellis (the OP) wrote:

I am thinking in terms of raw average damage, no feats or specials attached to this number.

Kestral wrote:

As for falcatas-- pretty straightforward. The allure is that they deliver more damage than any other weapon in the game.

How do you figure? The way I figure is that a Falcata is just a long sword that triple damage on a hit instead of double, so an extra 1d8 + bonuses in the event of a critical hit, but you threaten on only 10% of your crits, and how many of those confirm? I figure that since the threat only happened on a 19-20, then the creatures AC might be anything? What is the probablilty of confirming any random crit? 50-50, I guess. So that's one-half of 10%: 5%. So, let's say I am a fighter with an 18 St and a Falcata, how much extra damage do I do over a long sword: (+1d8+4)/20= 8.5/20 = 0.425 hp/round. Not nothing, but I could have spent that Exotic Weapon Proficiency Feat slot on a Bastard Sword and gotten +1 Damage. That's better than 0.425. Or I could use a Scizore and take Weapon Focus, +1 damage and +1 Shield bonus to AC.

Now's the time when you would say that you can take Improved Crit, and that doubles the threat range. True, but is it really that much better than taking Improved Crit for a Bastard Sword, the +1d8+bonuses some of the time as opposed to +1 all the time? Maybe, I guess depending on your bonuses. And then Crit Focus, a +4 to confirm? I don't even know how to calculate how much that increases the likelihood of scoring a crit. How do you even calculate that?

So part of my problem with crit builds, and therefore the Falcata, is that I don't really know how to calculate an average DPR, so I'd feel uncomfortable using one even if I didn't think the numbers didn't add up, and I don't think they do.

But prove me wrong. Show my your Falcata build. Show me how you calculate DPR of a Crit build.

[Chess Pwn]

The damage formula is h(d+s)+ft(cd+cb+r)

h = Chance to hit, expressed as a percentage. This doesn't exceed .95 (unless you autohit for whatever reason) and never goes below .05.
d = Normal damage. This is any damage that happens any time you hit.
s = Damage which isn't multiplied on a crit. "s" stands for sneak attack, but this includes elemental/alignment properties on weapons, manyshot damage, and so on.
t = Chance to roll a threat. This is the threat range of your weapon or your chance to hit, whichever is lower.
f = This is your chance to confirm a threat. Most of the time, this is equal to h. If you have Critical Focus, it's (h+.2) or .95, whichever is higher. If you auto-confirm crits, as with a level 20 fighter or Bless Weapon, this is 1.
c = This is the number of bonus multiples you get from a crit. A 2x crit weapon is 1, a 3x crit weapon is 2, etc.
b = This is elemental burst damage, such as from fiery burst weapons and thundering. Such enhancements self-multiply based on your crit multiplier; if they don't, then they're added to r and not b.
r = This is fixed bonus damage dealt on a crit. No such abilities exist in PF core, to my knowledge.

[Charon's Little Helper]

kestral287 wrote:

1. Broader crit ranges are better, and better broader crit ranges are best. If you crit 20% of the time for double damage, then accounting for the 5% miss chance you deal 115% of your base damage on average. If you crit 20% of the time for triple damage, accounting for the miss chance that's an average 135% of your base damage.

I'm sorry - I know that I'm being anal retentive and it doesn't matter - but if you crit 20% of the time for double damage and miss 5% of the time, you deal 114% of your base damage on average. If you crit 20% of the time for triple damage, accounting for the miss chance that's an average 133% of your base damage. (You need to apply the 5% miss chance to the increased critical damgage in addition to the base damage due to confirmation rolls.) And it's only a 16.67% increase in damage. (133%/115%-1) Of note - the % increase will be the same amount no matter your accuracy so long as you can connect on a 17+.

Your conclusions are all correct - I totally agree - and the differences are negligable - I'm just kinda OCD about stat/percentage stuff.

[Melkiador]

The thing about Falcata is that its damage scales better as you add to it. While a weapon like the bastard sword is stuck at being the same +1 damage.

Keep in mind that most damage isn't just the damage die plus the strength. You have things like power attack, magic weapons and two-handing to consider.

[Chess Pwn]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

How do you figure? The way I figure is that a Falcata is just a long sword that triple damage on a hit instead of double, so an extra 1d8 + bonuses in the event of a critical hit, but you threaten on only 10% of your crits, and how many of those confirm? I figure that since the threat only happened on a 19-20, then the creatures AC might be anything? What is the probablilty of confirming any random crit? 50-50, I guess. So that's one-half of 10%: 5%. So, let's say I am a fighter with an 18 St and a Falcata, how much extra damage do I do over a long sword: (+1d8+4)/20= 8.5/20 = 0.425 hp/round. Not nothing, but I could have spent that Exotic Weapon Proficiency Feat slot on a Bastard Sword and gotten +1 Damage. That's better than 0.425. Or I could use a Scizore and take Weapon Focus, +1 damage and +1 Shield bonus to AC.

So we'll test this with a lv1 fighter against average cr2 AC. so it's a +5 1d8+6 for both on the damage.

Longsword DPR = 6.93
Falcata DPR = 7.56
Bastard sword = 7.59

power attacking:
Longsword DPR = 8.17
Bastard sword = 8.77
Falcata DPR = 8.91

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Now's the time when you would say that you can take Improved Crit, and that doubles the threat range. True, but is it really that much better than taking Improved Crit for a Bastard Sword, the +1d8+bonuses some of the time as opposed to +1 all the time? Maybe, I guess depending on your bonuses. And then Crit Focus, a +4 to confirm? I don't even know how to calculate how much that increases the likelihood of scoring a crit. How do you even calculate that?

lv8 fighter improved crit against average cr9 AC. running with

8(bab)+1(wf)+1(wt)+1(magic)+6(str)=17/12 for
d8+2(ws)+1(wt)+1(magic)+9(str)=d8+13

longsword DPR = 26.25
bastardsword DPR = 27.75
falcata DPR = 30.53

Power attacking
longsword DPR = 30.21
bastardsword DPR = 31.35
falcata DPR = 35.25

Crit focus too
longsword DPR = 27.65
bastardsword DPR = 29.23
falcata DPR = 33.43

Power attacking
longsword DPR = 32.33
bastardsword DPR = 33.55
falcata DPR = 39.49

[Charon's Little Helper]

Of course - one thing that no one has thus far mentioned about falcatas etc - there are some targets against which improved crit doesn't do anything. Not nearly as many as 3.5 - but oozes/elementals/incoporeals are about.

In addition - I don't know about anyone else - but fortification is my go-to enchantment after my armor has already gotten the full +5 to AC. (For one thing - about then is when some enemies can start picking up the very mean crit feats.)

[Gregory Connolly]

Thanks for the replies. They are exactly the kind of discussion I was looking for.

I usually end up with very specific questions that end up amounting to "how likely are the conditions in which a>b in an average campaign"

For example when I was figuring out a Vital Strike build my questions were " at what point does an oversized bastard sword overtake a greatsword for damage?" "how do enlarge person and lead blades change this?" "how does furious finish change this and is it worth building for?" and "does immunity to fatigue trump furious finish?"

I'm not good with the exact numbers but I do understand the basics of how to build for the various combat styles. A Vital Strike build is an attempt to make something generally bad into something actually good, I know it isn't going to do what a ranged build or a natural attack build or a two weapon fighting build or any variety of caster build will do. It is an attempt to get around the inability to both move and do enough damage at mid and high levels.

The reason I'm interested in DPR is because I want to try and push mechanically weaker options into the realm of good rather than to push mechanically strong options into the realm of amazing. Amazing can be amazingly good or amazingly bad.

I see like 20% of the weapons in the game like 90% of the time. Judging by what I see people use I would guess without knowing that the top two weapons for each style would be:
One Handed: Falcata, Katana
Two Handed: Greatsword, Nodachi, honorable mention Earthbreaker
Ranged: Composite Longbow, Musket
One Handed(because of feats): Scimitar, Rapier
Light: Kukri, Wakazashi

[Scott Wilhelm]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Snowblind wrote:

with vital strike you want the highest damage die, but your biggest issue is you're using vital strike and you aren't abusing polymorph effects for 16d8 bite attacks at level 8.

Ooh, now I want to work Vital Strike into my Triceratops build! Snowblind, did you just re-word ChessPwn's quote then re-attribute it to him? If that's what you did, that's a jerk move, and I don't approve.

No he was alright, A completely valid statement that I approve of.

Well, okay. Someone was doing that to me the other day, and I maybe I'm a little over-sensitive.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Chess Pwn wrote:

lv8 fighter improved crit against average cr9 AC. running with

How do you reckon what the average AC of monsters is at Challenge Rating 9? Have you actually gone through d20pfsrd and looked up the ACs of all the CR 9 monsters, entered them into a spreadsheet and found the mean AC? If that's what you did, I'm impressed.

And what do you reckon the average Average AC to be at Challenge Rating 9?