Bard with VMC


Advice


OK so I am starting a new game and was wondering if I should use vmc with my bard. I am worried the feat loss will cripple the bard as I always seem to use a lot of them.

I was thinking of using the magus vmc to gain access to some fun arcana like deed arcana.

Is this a good idea? How bad will it hurt to lose half my feats?


Depends on your archetype and build focus.

First, envision your character

Dark Archive

VMC Magus is wonderful if you are going arcane duellist or something similar. It shouldn't harm you at all in the combat category, but it will most likely make you a little less versatile. That tends to be the trade off with VMC.


If you want to get some use out of Spellstrike, the Magiciam archetype will let you add some Magus touch spells, like Shocking Grasp or Frostbite, to your spell list.


Likewise, Arcane Duelist gets a ton of mileage from Fighter VMC, Sandman from Wizard VMC for Phantom School, and all of them benefit from Sorcerer VMC.


Sandman Bard/Rogue VMC is a great way to go into Arcane Trickster at lv7 (you gain Sneak Attack at lv5 of Sandman and at Character Level 7 from Rogue VMC, so you qualify for Arcane Trickster after only 6 levels of Bard/Rogue. You also continue to gain Sneak Attacks as you level from the Rogue VMC, and never miss a level of the Bard's spell progression.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Sandman Bard/Rogue VMC is a great way to go into Arcane Trickster at lv7 (you gain Sneak Attack at lv5 of Sandman and at Character Level 7 from Rogue VMC, so you qualify for Arcane Trickster after only 6 levels of Bard/Rogue. You also continue to gain Sneak Attacks as you level from the Rogue VMC, and never miss a level of the Bard's spell progression.

You have to have the two dice of sneak attack before you can enter Arcane Trickster. So you need 7 levels of Bard/Rogue and then you can start AT on your 8th level.


I know samsaren is great for stealing useful spells from the magus list as well.
I will look further into the archetypes mentioned. On phone currently


Gisher wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Sandman Bard/Rogue VMC is a great way to go into Arcane Trickster at lv7 (you gain Sneak Attack at lv5 of Sandman and at Character Level 7 from Rogue VMC, so you qualify for Arcane Trickster after only 6 levels of Bard/Rogue. You also continue to gain Sneak Attacks as you level from the Rogue VMC, and never miss a level of the Bard's spell progression.
You have to have the two dice of sneak attack before you can enter Arcane Trickster. So you need 7 levels of Bard/Rogue and then you can start AT on your 8th level.

You gain your second Sneak Attack dice at Character Level 7, regardless of your Class.

Just like how you can take Feats or even Prestige Classes at the same level that you gain a prerequisite, you should be able to take Arcane Trickster the moment you gain a second Sneak Attack dice, which is CL7.


I would not VMC a melee bard. You want your level 3 feat free for power attack and you usually don't have time or money to spend on retraining that early. Waiting until level 5 means dealing inadequate damage for a long time.

Obviously you shouldn't VMC any archer except maybe a zen archer, but especially not something like a bard that has no bonus feats and has other things competing for his slots.

Any bard wants to take Discordant Voice at level 11. Except an archaeologist.

You can VMC a caster bard if you can retrain at level 10 or 11 or a caster archaeologist in any case.

VMC loses the wrong half of its feats to line up with prerequisites for the feats a bard wants.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Gisher wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Sandman Bard/Rogue VMC is a great way to go into Arcane Trickster at lv7 (you gain Sneak Attack at lv5 of Sandman and at Character Level 7 from Rogue VMC, so you qualify for Arcane Trickster after only 6 levels of Bard/Rogue. You also continue to gain Sneak Attacks as you level from the Rogue VMC, and never miss a level of the Bard's spell progression.
You have to have the two dice of sneak attack before you can enter Arcane Trickster. So you need 7 levels of Bard/Rogue and then you can start AT on your 8th level.

You gain your second Sneak Attack dice at Character Level 7, regardless of your Class.

Just like how you can take Feats or even Prestige Classes at the same level that you gain a prerequisite, you should be able to take Arcane Trickster the moment you gain a second Sneak Attack dice, which is CL7.

Prestige class prerequisites don't work like feat prerequisites.

CRB (emphasis mine) wrote:
Prestige classes allow characters to become truly exceptional, gaining powers beyond the ken of their peers. Unlike the core classes, characters must meet specific requirements before they can take their first level of a prestige class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before gaining any benefits of that level, that character cannot take that prestige class. Characters that take levels in prestige classes do not gain any favored class bonuses for those levels.

So you can't take the first level of a prestige class until after you have all of the prerequisites met. Dragon Disciple, for example, requires 5 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana). That means you have to wait until at least 6th level to start DD. You can't take four levels of sorcerer and get the fifth Knowledge (Arcana) rank simultaneously with your first level of DD. Believe me, I wish it did work that way.

For the case at hand, you need to have met the sneak attack prerequisite before you can take a level of Arcane Trickster. At 6th level you do not meet the prerequisite, so you can not select AT as your seventh level class.


I Think it sounds great, with a rapire you Can eventually get both dex and level to damage as well as a scaling enchantment bonus to hit. This Will be throwing mist of your feats after combat in some Way or another but i Think it Can be great.


Building off of Gisher: you could however take 7th level x (doesn't matter), then pay the retraining cost to get AT at 7 if your GM allows that. Of course, if they allow that they'd probably just let you take AT at 7.

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