I have just started a campaign playing as a Druid. We are first level and before the game started we were discussing what wasn't going to be in the game. Now in the world that this DM is creating, there are no Dinosaurs, so I would not be able to get an Animal Companion that was a dinosaur. As far as I know, this just means that there are no living dinosaurs in the game. Fair enough, but the DM also banned dinosaurs from being summoned through Natures Ally, stating that because my character does not know about dinosaurs that I would not be able to summon them.
The question then is if I don't make a knowledge nature check to see if an animal is actually in the world, do I not have the ability to summon it? This can also be expanded into any game session. Would I have to be forced to do Knowledge checks to see if my character even knows that a creature exists before summoning it? Like for angels and devils? I am just perplexed because I respect the no dinosaur ruling, but I have no idea how far that goes into other fields of summoning. Would this mean I do not have knowledge of the majority of creatures if I am a dwarf and have only been in temperate or cold regions of nature? Thoughts?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If dinosaurs are non-existent in your GM's world, then it would stand to reason that you couldn't summon them either.
Now, rules wise there is no restriction that says you must know the creature in order to summon it. But logically, if you don't know about its existence, how would you think to summon it?
Remove your knowledge of the existence of dinosaurs? Do you even know to ask this question? No.
Your GM sounds like they've decided to ban dinosaurs, and I would say that it could include summoning them too.
In general, as a GM I would probably say that you need the appropriate knowledge and to successfully identify the creature to "know of it" and be able to summon it. Or to have actually encountered it in combat. First hand experience trumps other stuff.
If there are no living dinosaurs anywhere in the world, and no one knows anything about them, then you're not going to be able to summon them.
It's never said in the spell, but I've always believed that Summon Monster is summoning creatures from the outer planes, while Summon Nature's Ally is summoning creatures from the world itself. Both spells sort of kidnap a spirit and throw it in a temporary body. Nature's Ally just does the kidnapping from some obscure part of the world.
But again, that's just been the fluff I've subconsciously given to the spell. It's not spelled (haha) out.
Regarding the rule applying to other summons, that's really something you'll want to discuss with the GM directly. If the GM is banning dinosaurs, then it seems reasonable (to me at least) that the ban would include summons. (Otherwise, you get into situations where your druid summons a dinosaur, 'learns' it exists, and then shapeshifts into it.) If you are concerned that this rule will be applied to other summons, bring it up. It's a valid question. I've always assumed that a character is taught about each animal that the spell can summon as part of learning the spell, but perhaps you will need to make a knowledge roll to 'research' each creature. That would be a valid approach if your GM wants a world where individual summons have a contract with their summoner.
Just explain your confusion about how this rule would apply to everything else, and I'm sure your GM will be happy to explain what they have in mind. Heck, maybe you two can sit down and thrash out some really cool concept centered around summoning that will enhance your game.
No. There is no mention in the rules, unlike a reference to animal companion, that you need to know squat about a summoned creature. Dinosaurs can't because they aren't there even in outer planes apparently and consistent with that house rule therefore cannot be summoned.
~The way I imagine it~, for people who learn spells from books/scrolls/text is that you get the name of possible creatures the spell can summon, but the name doesn't give context for what the creature is unless you researched it your self. For most spontaneous/divine casters, it's more of a a gut feeling/intuition of the potential for creatures that can be summoned, but again no true context of the actual being without research or trial and error.
But, if your GM has placed a hard ban on Dinosaurs and has said they don't exist than they're not eligible as a summons. If your GM is willing to meet you half way and allow you to summon a Dinosaur from some other dimension/world then that's another thing.
Well if you're going to use such a rule for Knowledge checks, the DCs should be lower,
since the normal DC is based on providing you SOME specific knowledge about the creature,
if you don't need to know any specific information, but just general existence, then the DC should be lower.
Also, some creatures should be "famous" and thus more widely known then the DC based on CR would suggest.
That goes mostly for generic "existence", but if an ability of theirs is particulary iconic (e.g. Dragon's Breath + Wings)
then that particular ability should also have a lower DC to know about.
On the other hand, another way to run it is say that Spellcraft checks tell you about spells,
so a Spellcraft check will tell you what a certain level Summon X spell can summon...
That COULD mean you don't know much at all about what those creatures ARE before you try it,
but really that just seems tedious, and the stats of Summoned Creatures aren't much different than, say,
knowing the in game effects (in-character approximation of mechanics) of ice that is conjured up by Ice Storm spell, etc.
I probably would assume you know the Summoned Creatures/Abilities for Summmon Spells you know (thru level-up, since you are assumed to have been acclimatizing to knowledge of those),
if you find a Scroll you would need Spellcraft/Knowledge checks, and would still need that
even if "learn" the spell mid-adventure, before you level up again and have time to "research" it "off-screen". Etc.
All of that doesn't necessarily have much to do with your GM's ruling on Dinosaur's though,
if there are no Dinosaurs in his game world (including on other planes or wherever Summoned creatures come from),
then you can't Summon Dinosaurs, and in indeed trying or wanting to Summon them would be no different
than saying "I want to Summon the Bockyfoo, you know that 1HD creatures with 1000hp and 100 12d6 Grab attacks."
"Uh, there is no such creature."
"Well I want to Summon it anyways."
"Uh, no?"
"Waaaaaa..."
"OK, your character wastes their turn on a Full-Round Action not doing anything"
Sometimes asking reverse question helps. In this case it would be: When casting summoning spell how your character could possibly ask for a creature that is unknown to him? Does the spell implant the knowledge of creatures that can be summoned? Just shows the images of summonable creatures?
As a GM I'd agree with your GM that the caster needs some idea of a creature to be able to conjure it - unless the spell allows conjuring random creatures.
Anyway, the GM can tailor the summon lists to fit the campaign. Removed creatures should be replace with other creatures of comparable strength, though.
Just to put this issue in context, Summon Nature's Ally is considered inferior to Summon Monster. To then limit the SNA guys by only those known becomes even more of a bummer (if that's even an thing with your GM). More important could be you are "owed" so to speak some kind of replacement animal for whatever dino's are scratched off the list. It's been years since I played a Druid who cast summons, so maybe it's not that many creatures on the list.
I see the summon monster spell as creating creatures from magic which is why the alignment of a summoned creature matches the summoner. I would argue that the summon list is part of the spell and thus in knowing the spell the caster knows what kind of things the magic can be moulded into just as a caster knows pyrotechnics can be used either to cause heavy smoke or a blinding flash.