[PF Unchained] Variant multiclass and archetypes.


Rules Questions


Hello fellow players !

Is there any official answer about the use of archetypes in combination with VMC from Pathfinder Unchained ? Not for your main class, but for your secondary class.

Thanks in advance !


No. You get what you get. It'd be a huge pain to actually find a legal archetype anyway, since most of them are working with more class features than what you have.


I was specifically wondering about VMC(Sorcerer) and Wildblooded bloodlines.


You can talk to your GM and he may let you-- I honestly would, barring Slyvan-- but the out-of-the-book answer is no.


kestral287 wrote:
You can talk to your GM and he may let you-- I honestly would, barring Slyvan-- but the out-of-the-book answer is no.

Out of curiosity, why not Sylvan?

You don't get the Bloodline Arcana with VMC.


Scythia wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
You can talk to your GM and he may let you-- I honestly would, barring Slyvan-- but the out-of-the-book answer is no.

Out of curiosity, why not Sylvan?

You don't get the Bloodline Arcana with VMC.

For that exact reason. The first-level power and the arcana of Slyvan are intrinsically tied together. So, we have two possibilities:

1. The player obtains Slyvan powers but not the arcana via Eldritch Heritage or VMC Sorcerer, and as such does not get his first-level power since it's also his arcana. He's screwed over and gets less.

2. The player obtains Slyvan powers, which includes the first-level power despite it also being the arcana. Slyvan is mechanically preferable because it would be the only one that offers an arcana as well as powers.

Anyone trying to actually take Slyvan is pretty much by definition going to want #2. And I'd say that no, it's #1, and thus we have an irritating debate. Easier to ban it outright.


kestral287 wrote:
Scythia wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
You can talk to your GM and he may let you-- I honestly would, barring Slyvan-- but the out-of-the-book answer is no.

Out of curiosity, why not Sylvan?

You don't get the Bloodline Arcana with VMC.

For that exact reason. The first-level power and the arcana of Slyvan are intrinsically tied together. So, we have two possibilities:

1. The player obtains Slyvan powers but not the arcana via Eldritch Heritage or VMC Sorcerer, and as such does not get his first-level power since it's also his arcana. He's screwed over and gets less.

2. The player obtains Slyvan powers, which includes the first-level power despite it also being the arcana. Slyvan is mechanically preferable because it would be the only one that offers an arcana as well as powers.

Anyone trying to actually take Slyvan is pretty much by definition going to want #2. And I'd say that no, it's #1, and thus we have an irritating debate. Easier to ban it outright.

eh not really a debate since in order to take an archetype you need to be able to swap all features.

sylvan loses arcana
vmc doesn't have arcana

so by definition, you cannot take sylvan since you cannot "lose" something you dont have in the first place (arcana)


fighter would be an easy one to switch out they get all the abilities they would ever have the possibility of losing


kestral287 wrote:
Scythia wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
You can talk to your GM and he may let you-- I honestly would, barring Slyvan-- but the out-of-the-book answer is no.

Out of curiosity, why not Sylvan?

You don't get the Bloodline Arcana with VMC.

For that exact reason. The first-level power and the arcana of Slyvan are intrinsically tied together. So, we have two possibilities:

1. The player obtains Slyvan powers but not the arcana via Eldritch Heritage or VMC Sorcerer, and as such does not get his first-level power since it's also his arcana. He's screwed over and gets less.

2. The player obtains Slyvan powers, which includes the first-level power despite it also being the arcana. Slyvan is mechanically preferable because it would be the only one that offers an arcana as well as powers.

Anyone trying to actually take Slyvan is pretty much by definition going to want #2. And I'd say that no, it's #1, and thus we have an irritating debate. Easier to ban it outright.

Oh, right I forgot that they made it cost both. Good call to say no then.

Dark Archive

What about Black-Blooded Oracle? The only thing it changes is the curse, which you get. Possibly adds two new revelations, but it doesn't take or change anything otherwise.

Black-Blooded Oracle wrote:

Curse of Black Blood (Su): All black-blooded oracles effectively share the same curse—the curse of black blood. The material affects these oracles physically and mentally, altering both physiology and mystic powers. The blood of a black-blooded oracle actually runs black, and wounds she suffers are infected by her own power and are difficult to heal. She is immune to the effects (both beneficial and destructive) of black blood. Positive and negative energy affect a black-blooded oracle as if she were undead— positive energy harms her, while negative energy heals her (this aspect of the curse has no effect if the oracle is undead). The curse also dulls the oracle’s coordination somewhat, imparting a –4 penalty on all Dexterity-based skill checks. At 5th level, she gains cold resistance 5. This increases to cold resistance 10 at 10th level, and immunity to cold at 15th level. This ability replaces the oracle’s curse.

Black Blood Revelations: All black-blooded oracles have access to the following revelations, regardless of what mystery they choose.

Black Blood Spray (Su): As an immediate action whenever a black-blooded oracle takes piercing or slashing damage, she can cause some of her black blood to spray from the wound to strike any adjacent target. She must make a touch attack to hit the target (if she’s attacking the creature that caused the wound, she gains a +4 circumstance bonus on her attack roll). If she hits, she deals 1d8 points of cold damage + 1 point per 2 oracle levels she possesses. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1/2 her oracle level (minimum 1/day).

Dark Resilience (Su): The black blood flowing through a black-blooded oracle’s veins gives her resistance to many effects to which undead are immune. Once per day, as an immediate action, whenever she fails a saving throw against an ability drain, a death effect, disease, energy drain, paralysis, or poison, she may attempt that saving throw again with a +4 circumstance bonus. She must take the second result, even if it is worse. At 7th level, she can use this ability twice per day. At 15th level, she can use the ability 3 times per day.

Darkvision (Ex): A black-blooded oracle gains darkvision with a range of 60 feet. The range increases to 90 feet at 15th level.


kestral287 wrote:
Scythia wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
You can talk to your GM and he may let you-- I honestly would, barring Slyvan-- but the out-of-the-book answer is no.

Out of curiosity, why not Sylvan?

You don't get the Bloodline Arcana with VMC.

For that exact reason. The first-level power and the arcana of Slyvan are intrinsically tied together. So, we have two possibilities:

1. The player obtains Slyvan powers but not the arcana via Eldritch Heritage or VMC Sorcerer, and as such does not get his first-level power since it's also his arcana. He's screwed over and gets less.

2. The player obtains Slyvan powers, which includes the first-level power despite it also being the arcana. Slyvan is mechanically preferable because it would be the only one that offers an arcana as well as powers.

Anyone trying to actually take Slyvan is pretty much by definition going to want #2. And I'd say that no, it's #1, and thus we have an irritating debate. Easier to ban it outright.

3. (If Wildblooded Bloodlines had NOT been written as archetypes) Sylvan Bloodline Arcana: You are considered to have Nature Soul for the purpose of feat perquisites, but do not gain the benefits of the actual Nature Soul feat unless you actually have that feat. In addition, if you gain an Animal Companion through the Animal Ally feat, your choice of Animal Companions is the full list of Animal Companions that would be available to a Druid of your effective Druid level. 1st level Bloodline Power: You gain Animal Ally as a bonus feat with a minimum effective Druid level of 1, even if you do not meet the prerequisites, but it only takes effect if you have Nature Soul or the Sylvan Bloodline Arcana. If you have both Nature Soul and the Sylvan Bloodline Arcana, your effective Druid level for determining the progression of your Animal Companion is equal to your class level instead of 3 levels lower.

Apart from the following exceptions (unless I missed something above), the rewritten Sylvan Bloodline has the exact same effect as Sylvan Bloodline as officially written:

A. The rewritten Sylvan Bloodline is compatible with Eldritch Heritage, Variant MultiClassing, and other things that use or alter Sorcerer Bloodlines (including Sorcerer archetypes).

B. You can take a more useful and thematically appropriate feat than even Boon Companion to get your Animal Companion up to full power, and if you multiclass, you can even take Boon Companion on top of that.


By the way, Variant Multiclassing should support archetypes of its own.

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