Toppling Spell + Magical Lineage (Magic Missile)

[Apple Fetish]

Am I correct in that a 1st level Sorcerer, with Magical Lineage (Magic Missile) along with the Toppling Spell feat, would be able to cast Toppling Magic Missiles at level 1? The Magic Missiles would be +1 level for the Toppling, so would need a level two slot, but the Magical Lineage would reduce the meta magic feat cost by one level, so would they be able to be cast with the 1st level slots?

[Aelryinth]

That is correct.

==Aelryinth

[Quayuazue]

casting magic missile with the toppling meta magic feat and magic lineage to reduce the cast level, as a spontaneous spell caster this should be a full round cast ? correct ?

[kestral287]

Yes

[Purple Dragon Knight]

wow... who cares about the full round cast though! no need to move much as the magic missiles will hit unerringly... no need to invest in PBS and PS either... bloody hell!

[kestral287]

It's really nice for the first, oh, three or four levels.

Then you invested a trait and a feat into something that just doesn't work anymore.

[FallzQuick]

kestral287 wrote:

It's really nice for the first, oh, three or four levels.

Then you invested a trait and a feat into something that just doesn't work anymore.

why would it not work anymore?

[FLite]

I don't know, I am still finding them nice as support for my front line friends. Personally, I plan on retraining the feat into dazing at some point. It will only be a one round daze, for a third level spell, but I can force a pretty rough save DC, and causing up to 5 enemies to potentially lose their turn should do some horrible things to the action economy.

[kestral287]

FallzQuick wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

It's really nice for the first, oh, three or four levels.

Then you invested a trait and a feat into something that just doesn't work anymore.

why would it not work anymore?

CMD scaling and trip immunities.

I pulled a quick comparison at 10th a few days back for another thread and with Improved/Greater Trip, it still didn't hit better than one in nine CR10 enemies on the average roll.

That's with another two feats invested, mind, and was working a pathetic 11% of the time.

[FLite]

As kestral said. Serpantines and oozes cannot be tripped, quadropeds get a bonuses, most GM's rule someone flying cannot be tripped.

Then on top of that Your trip is your level + caster stat. their trip resist is Level+STR+DEX and both Str and Dex typically go up faster than your casting stat. (Though if you can catch them flat footed that helps a bit, sometimes)

At some point, the things you can trip, are the things you don't care about tripping. (Oh, good, you tripped the mage over there, who the melee characters haven't reached. Now he has +4 AC against the other ranged PCs. By the time the melee PCs get there, he will have stood up.)

On the other hand, almost nothing is immune to daze. And you are going against will, which scales much more slowly than CMD.

[kestral287]

Flying creatures being immune to trip is RAW. Just saying.

[FLite]

Is there a rules cite for that?

[Cap. Darling]

Combat section core rule book combat maneuvers under trip:"Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped."

[FLite]

Ah. For some reason I didn't see that before.

[kinevon]

FLite wrote:

Ah. For some reason I didn't see that before.

Unfortunate problem with combining two books into one, sometimes rules information on a single thing (potion creation, for example) is piecemeal in multiple spots.

[Metux]

But you can always use this trait for quickening magical missiles :)
For toppling spells, you could use with Twilight Knife or with many other force spells.
Or you can retrain it around lv 5, if you don't want this meta magic feat.

With some optimization as a human wizard(exploiter) you can :
Swap scribe scroll (as in PFS) for spell focus (evoc) + spell spez(Magic missile) + Toppling spell

Get the trait on magic missile and a trait with +1 CL.
With the arcane reservoir use you got a CL of 5 at lv 1 = 3 magic missiles at +5+Int bonus on each trip attempt (3D4+3dmg).

IF you get the exploit to get +2CL on arcane reservoir use, at lv 2, you fire 4 magic missiles with +7+Int bonus on each trip. (and you are doing 4D4+4 dmg)

[Just a Guess]

You could entangle the guy before hitting him with the toppling Magic Missile.
And if there are more Targets just spread the Missiles at higher Levels. Better chances that some one rolls low.

[blackbloodtroll]

You can also stack Wayang Spell Hunter.

You could then add Dazing, at +1, or Thundering, at +0.