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So a Mouser Swashbuckler typically fights from inside their opponent's square. If an opponent attempted to 5 foot step away, would the Mouser be able to use Step Up and follow, staying in their square?
Further, if yes and the Mouser also had Step Up and Strike, could the mouser use both the Underfoot Assault deed and Step Up and Strike, attacking them twice for the impertinence of trying to escape?
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Underfoot Assault (Ex): At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.
While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser's allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.
I think not.
Step Up specifically requires you to end up adjacent - it's very clear on that point. This would also make your second question irrelevant, but even if it were possible to use Step Up and Strike (it isn't), then it would still not be possible to use Underfoot Assault because that only works when an opponent attacks you and misses - it has nothing to do with choosing to use Underfoot Assault any time you want to.
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The general thought I have seen is the first paragraph of Underfoot Assault requires a miss, but the second is always active if you meet the condition of being in the same square - the panache is spent for the movement.
The adjacent bit is one part I am not sure about. Since a tiny creature must enter the opponent's space to attack, wouldn't that mean they aren't adjacent until inside that space?
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Actually, that brought up an interesting question. Can you cleave off a rider into their mount (assume small rider medium mount to avoid issues with large mounts and multiple squares), or off one tiny creature onto another in the same square? Because doing so requires defining same square as part of adjacent.
Edit:
Aha, I think I found the official PRD definition of Adjacent!
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.)
So within 5. Within 0 is most certainly within 5. By that definition, Step Up should work - 5 foot step, start touching and hence adjacent, move 5 feet to follow and end up touching and hence adjacent.
Step Up and the later feat, Step Up and Strike, work together. Because Step Up and Strike says so: "When using the Step Up feat to follow an adjacent foe, you may also make a single melee attack against that foe". Pretty clear. If I modify that a little to include actual wording from Step up, it reads like this:
Whenever an adjacent foe attempts to take a 5-foot step away from you, you may also make a 5-foot step as an immediate action so long as you end up adjacent to the foe that triggered this ability and you may also make a single melee attack against that foe.
As you can see, it has nothing to do with a foe attacking you or missing you. It only applies to an adjacent foe using his 5'-step to get away from you and when that happens, you may follow to an adjacent space and take one melee attack against him (as an AoO).
Underfoot Assault has no synergy with that. Being inside the foe's space is NOT being adjacent to him. If there were some text in the description of Underfoot Assault that said something like "When you are inside your foe's space you are considered to be adjacent to that foe" then you would have a case for using this with Step Up. But there is no such text, nor is there a general rule for it (quite the opposite actually). Furthermore, Underfoot Assault triggers when the foe attacks you but Step Up triggers when the foe takes a 5'-Step. Totally different.
So back to the OP, if you are already inside your foe's space when he 5'-Steps, you were not adjacent to him so you CANNOT use Step Up.
Within the same square is adjacent
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DM_Blake, I know how Step Up and Strike works. The question at hand seems to be the convoluted and disagreed upon definition of Adjacent and whether or not it counts your own square. If it does, Step Up and friends work for a mouser (assuming all other rules are followed, such as at least two size categories smaller); if it does not, the feat does not work.
Note that this is in the context of a Tiny character (specifically, a Kitsune Fox Form Mouser 1/Natural Weapons Ranger 2/??? who has taken the Ranger feat to get claws).
Assuming we define Adjacent as including the current space (which I fully understand makes this vulnerable to table variation):
* Enemy starts turn in same square as Mouser
* Enemy tries to 5 foot step away
* Per text of Underfoot Assault, when an enemy moves out of the square the Mouser is in, it triggers an AOO. Given that more specific trumps less specific, and it specifies that it takes effect any time the opponent moves out of the Mouser's space, this would seem to trigger even on 5 foot steps.
* The Mouser then uses Step Up and Strike to follow the enemy and attack again.
Now this would only apply in the specific situation of the Mouser starting in their square, and the enemy making a 5 foot step - if they moved normally, it would only trigger Underfoot Assault. Plus, the enemy has only used a 5 foot step at this point, so they're still free to full attack that annoying rabid fox that keeps biting them if they want :)
It looks like it would work to me as long as you had combat reflexes...
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Aspect of the Beast won't work with Fox Shape. You grow claws in your Kitsune form. Then they go away when you change into a Fox, since you lose your natural weapons when you change, unless otherwise specified.
Assuming that
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.)
then Adjacent is defined as your own square(s) and in squares with in 5' of you. Logically speaking it should all work from that point on.
Actually, Aspect of the Beast does work with Fox Shape. The claws you grow aren't part of your Kitsune form, but an additional feature added by a feat. Further, "Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form." I think it's reasonable to assume that a fox shape is well suited to using claw attacks.
Again, that definition is only relevant to melee attacks. For other purposes, it's undefined.
It has been debated before, but RAW polymorph school says they are lost. Foxes don't have claws in their stat block, you do not gain something that they don't have without specific exceptions stating you do. The claws from the feat aren't a supernatural or other effect that can be activated in the new form either (like a totem or bloodline ability, etc). Whatever your "base" form is, gains claws when you gain the feat, so polymorphing makes you lose those.
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Other option is to go Unchained Barbarian and get claws when raging. That was actually the original idea, the Ranger version was attractive to have something that is effective even when not raging.
So I wonder - ignoring the potential Fox Form problem and assuming Base Form, if you had both the Ranger and the Barbarian claws, would you have two pairs of claws, one on your hands and one on your feet?
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Underfoot assault only let's you spend your immediate action when you're missed to step into an opponent's square. This is the exception.
Taking a 5' step (via Step Up or just a regular one) does not allow you to enter your opponent's square. You must be using a specific ability (a la Underfoot Assault or Monkey Shine or similar) to actually move into an opponent's square.
I agree that the same square is adjacent, but that is irrelevant to the question being asked.
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You must be using a specific ability (a la Underfoot Assault or Monkey Shine or similar) to actually move into an opponent's square.
Or...
PRD: "Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so."
There's a problem with that section though. It says they can move in to there, but technically it doesn't say they can stay there. Because a little bit up it says:
Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.
I'm sure it wasn't entirely intended that way, because it makes it really hard for them to attack anyone, since they end movement before making attacks.
More oddness: if a tiny fox is allowed to enter my square, am I (medium) allowed to enter the fox's square?
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.
It seems not. I'm not big enough to enter the fox's square, but he's small enough to enter mine.
Also, just because the fox might be allowed to end his movement in my square, am I allowed to remain there on my turn? I'm not allowed to move into the fox's square or end my movement there, so... what...?
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These rules need a bit of cleaning up. It's fairly clear how they're intended to work, but they don't actually say it that way.
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To the OP, Expect table variation:
Option 1: Perfect Synergy - Opponent leaves square, mouser gets Underfoot Assault AOO, Mouser steps up into opponents square with Step Up/Following Step/Step Up & Strike.
Option 2: No synergy - Opponent leaves square, Mouser gets AOO from Underfoot Assault. May Step Up, but not into the square occupied by the opponent.
Option 3: Limited Synergy - Opponent leaves square, Mouser may use Step Up to remain in the same square as the opponent but forfeits the AOO from Underfoot Assault (the immediate action from SU means they never left each others square). He will gain the AOO from Step Up & Strike if he had taken the feat.
Option 2 is the RAW interpretation and as such have not included this feat line on my Mouser, however I will allow Option 3 at my tables on the basis of allowing the Underfoot Assault to continue because its invested in with multiple feats. After all, this is the center piece of the entire AT and its thwarted by a 5' step (free action) available to anyone.
Note: the creature may still leave the square with the withdraw action (taking the Mouser's AOO), move 10-15 feet away and learn not to attack the little guy in the future. At least now it requires an action investment to override a centerpiece class ability.
This is worthy of an FAQ, otherwise its a broken AT.
I think not.
Step Up specifically requires you to end up adjacent - it's very clear on that point.
a lot of rules suggest that adjacent also counts for in their square, else your familiar riding your shoulder doesn't grant you awareness.
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Underfoot assault only let's you spend your immediate action when you're missed to step into an opponent's square. This is the exception.
Taking a 5' step (via Step Up or just a regular one) does not allow you to enter your opponent's square. You must be using a specific ability (a la Underfoot Assault or Monkey Shine or similar) to actually move into an opponent's square.
I agree that the same square is adjacent, but that is irrelevant to the question being asked.
To clarify, the UA ability allows the Mouser to occupy a 5' square of his own within the opponents square. It is paid for with Panache. The Mouser can leave or move freely within the opponents squares if the opponent occupies more than one. Please note at the time of the provocation of leaving the Mousers square the Mouser still has UA active and may move freely within spaces occupied by the opponent.
The feat line Step Up is an immediate action, taking place at the same time as (before) the provocation (movement outside the Mouser's square). It is perfectly reasonable the Mouser may follow into an adjacent square and continue Underfoot Assault with the Step Up feat line if he doesn't take the UA AOO from the opponent leaving his square (because he never did).
You must be using a specific ability (a la Underfoot Assault or Monkey Shine or similar) to actually move into an opponent's square.
Or...
PRD: "Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so."
There's a problem with that section though. It says they can move in to there, but technically it doesn't say they can stay there. Because a little bit up it says:
Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.I'm sure it wasn't entirely intended that way, because it makes it really hard for them to attack anyone, since they end movement before making attacks.
More oddness: if a tiny fox is allowed to enter my square, am I (medium) allowed to enter the fox's square?
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.
It seems not. I'm not big enough to enter the fox's square, but he's small enough to enter mine.
Also, just because the fox might be allowed to end his movement in my square, am I allowed to remain there on my turn? I'm not allowed to move into the fox's square or end my movement there, so... what...?
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These rules need a bit of cleaning up. It's fairly clear how they're intended to work, but they don't actually say it that way.
thankfully RAI rules that section of the rules. and not a single person I have seen has ruled it how your saying.
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You must be using a specific ability (a la Underfoot Assault or Monkey Shine or similar) to actually move into an opponent's square.
Or...
PRD: "Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so."
You obviously didn't read the first post. He makes no mention of being that small. That's not a loophole and if he is that small then it's fine.
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The feat line Step Up is an immediate action, taking place at the same time as (before) the provocation (movement outside the Mouser's square). It is perfectly reasonable the Mouser may follow into an adjacent square and continue Underfoot Assault with the Step Up feat line if he doesn't take the UA AOO from the opponent leaving his square (because he never did).
That sounds like a very reasonable interpretation (and likely what I would apply as a GM in a home game). By using Step Up, you stay in their square, so you get Step Up and Strike as a consequence of having used Step Up, but do not get the AOO from Underfoot Assault. The idea being that you have a rabid fox gnawing on your leg, and you didn't move enough to shake them off so they kept gnawing. If they take a full movement, you can't Step Up and they shake you off, but you get the AOO as a parting gift.
btw, that is in fact the character concept - a Kitsune that has contracted rabies and it's messed with their head, and has managed to stabilize themselves a bit Human form, but goes a bit nuts and attacks things whenever they're in a more foxy form (Base Form at level 1, then Fox Form when I gain it from the feat at level 3). They should be small enough that one of the other party members can scruff the fox and throw it at the enemy's face, at which point the rabid fox latches on and starts mauling :)
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Underfoot assault only let's you spend your immediate action when you're missed to step into an opponent's square. This is the exception.
Taking a 5' step (via Step Up or just a regular one) does not allow you to enter your opponent's square. You must be using a specific ability (a la Underfoot Assault or Monkey Shine or similar) to actually move into an opponent's square.
I agree that the same square is adjacent, but that is irrelevant to the question being asked.
I agree with Claudekennilol on this point. To INITIATE Underfoot Assault, you must be attacked. Although your tiny size allows (forces) you to enter the opponents square to melee, you don't get the benefit of it unless you spend the panache point after being missed in melee.
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So it would still be fine to move in to the square and start attacking per the normal Tiny movement and combat rules (provoking an AOO as usual moving into their square), you just don't get the benefits like the -4 attack against allies, flanking, and the AOO on moving out until you formally start Underfoot Assault on a missed attack against you?
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So it would still be fine to move in to the square and start attacking per the normal Tiny movement and combat rules (provoking an AOO as usual moving into their square), you just don't get the benefits like the -4 attack against allies, flanking, and the AOO on moving out until you formally start Underfoot Assault on a missed attack against you?It costs a panache point to get into the foe's square as an immediate action without taking an AOO. That's all. There is no panache cost if you are already there.
The following part of Underfoot Assault would be in effect regardless of whether it was the mouser that entered the foe's space, or the foe that entered the mouser's space.
"While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser's allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser."
Is the mouser in the foe's space? Yes? Then all the listed effects apply.
This. It also costs your immediate action in addition to the penache. Step up isn't that useful because it only activates if your opponent takes a 5' step (i.e. if they use their full move action to move away the step up feat chain does nothing)--step up also uses your immediate action.
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Underfoot assault takes an immediate action to begin and 5' step. The opponent usually won't leave the square until after he has tried squishing the little guy. By that time the Mouser will have acted and regained the opportunity to use an immediate action, but in the 1st round you are correct.
In regards to the tiny mouser's simply moving into a square... I wouldn't want that to be used against me. Since it is untyped 4 tiny pixie swashbuckler could all UA swarm the same target and give the target a cumulative neg 12 vs any of them.
Grammatically, the interpretation may be correct... New paragraph, New subject but I believe this to be an oversight and they are directly related and the panache is needed to activate the ability.
I acknowledge RAW, with tiny mousers it works.
Written on phone. I apologize for any autocorrect, grammar issues.
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In regards to the tiny mouser's simply moving into a square... I wouldn't want that to be used against me. Since it is untyped 4 tiny pixie swashbuckler could all UA swarm the same target and give the target a cumulative neg 12 vs any of them.
It's like a DIY swarm :) To make things more fun and make the target of this tactic cry, Teamwork Feats!
Circling Offense: Every time the enemy attacks one of you and misses, it provokes AOOs from the rest.
Improved Feint Partner: If one of your allies successfully Feints, it provokes AOOs from the rest, against which they lose their Dex bonus to AC. Normally feinting is a waste of action economy, but if you have Improved Feint to get Feint as a Move, you can Feint twice in a round and each time earn an AOOs for each of your allies.
Outflank: You're all adjacent to the target and each other, so you're all flanking. Bump the flank bonus up to +4, and every time one of you crits - more AOOs from the rest!
Paired Opportunists: +4 to attack on those AOOs you're spamming. It also permits all of you to get an AOO if any one of you does (with the caveat that you can't get multiple AOOs from the same thing), so this should allow the 4th tiny attacker to get AOOs at the same time as the rest with the above.
That's a lot of AOOs. Good thing tiny critters have high dex scores. You're unlikely to hit them due to the stacking penalties on attack, unlikely to AOE them due to high reflex saves. I guess to fight this you'd have to target Will, but there's also a teamwork feat that, when more than one of you has to roll against a Charm effect, you all get to take the highest roll.
Ok, ok, I promise not to make my GM cry by actually trying to bring this to the table :)
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In regards to the tiny mouser's simply moving into a square... I wouldn't want that to be used against me. Since it is untyped 4 tiny pixie swashbuckler could all UA swarm the same target and give the target a cumulative neg 12 vs any of them.It's like a DIY swarm :) To make things more fun and make the target of this tactic cry, Teamwork Feats!
Circling Offense: Every time the enemy attacks one of you and misses, it provokes AOOs from the rest.
Improved Feint Partner: If one of your allies successfully Feints, it provokes AOOs from the rest, against which they lose their Dex bonus to AC. Normally feinting is a waste of action economy, but if you have Improved Feint to get Feint as a Move, you can Feint twice in a round and each time earn an AOOs for each of your allies.
Outflank: You're all adjacent to the target and each other, so you're all flanking. Bump the flank bonus up to +4, and every time one of you crits - more AOOs from the rest!
Paired Opportunists: +4 to attack on those AOOs you're spamming. It also permits all of you to get an AOO if any one of you does (with the caveat that you can't get multiple AOOs from the same thing), so this should allow the 4th tiny attacker to get AOOs at the same time as the rest with the above.
That's a lot of AOOs. Good thing tiny critters have high dex scores. You're unlikely to hit them due to the stacking penalties on attack, unlikely to AOE them due to high reflex saves. I guess to fight this you'd have to target Will, but there's also a teamwork feat that, when more than one of you has to roll against a Charm effect, you all get to take the highest roll.
Ok, ok, I promise not to make my GM cry by actually trying to bring this to the table :)
Oops. :-)
I have a teamwork feat/tactician build (Holy Tactician Paladin + cavalier + bard with Song of the people's revolt) who pairs with a mouser, specifically so they can get Paired Opportunists and Outflank running at the same time. It takes at least 2 rounds to get it set up (and all my feats have been dedicated to doing this), but it's pretty when we can pull it off.
But the only GM who's cried so far actually started when I shared out Swap Places as my teamwork feat: kept a horde of bad guys trapped in a corridor while we alternated stepping into the only square we could full attack from...
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I have found Mousers to be very annoying to the target. Damage is the issue more than anything else but the dex to damage options are fixing that.
You will need to boost ac as UA will make you a target.
My own Mouser uses Body Guard and fighting defensively. Pairs with Outflank + tactician, and Butterfly Sting to buff up all the glass Cannon's these days.