How would these things work together? Take for example Shocking Grasp for a Magus. He wants to put an Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp into his weapon (which he can cast/has the feats for). He also has Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp). From what I've read, Spell-Storing weapons use the spell as cast by the Caster who put it there. I take this to mean the CL of the spell, overcoming SR, and the power of the spell itself.
Spell Perfection says that anytime the Magus casts his chosen spell, he can add any single metamagic feat he has to it, without increasing the level or casting time.
My personal thoughts:
Caster Level 10
Shocking Grasp (Level 1) + Intensify Spell (1) + Magical Lineage (-1) + Empowered (Free from Spell Perfection) = Level 1 Spell, 15d6 damage. I could see Magical Lineage not working with it, but still, it would only increase the level to 2.
Here's another scenario. If Magical Lineage does work, then it could look something like this:
Shocking Grasp (1) + Intensify Spell (1) + Magical Lineage (-1) + Empowered (2) + Maximize or Dazing (Free)= Level 3 Spell, 15d6 damage (+ Maximized or Dazing)
Now, the questions come: What's legal here? How does all this work? What doesn't work? Am I looking at this wrong?
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If you do a search for "spell storing metamagic" you'll find this question has been asked quite a bit during the last 5 years.
In fact, the very first thread that comes up has responses from both Jason Bulmahn and James Jacobs.
It's generally a good practice to research whether your question has come up before ;-)
Thanks for the response! Yeah I did a search but not for that specifically, so I couldn't find anything.
Okay, so I was looking over that thread, but honestly, even with Jason's and James' inputs, I'm still not seeing anything RAW that says that the above wouldn't work.
James says:
A maximized 3rd level spell still functions as a 3rd level spell when it comes to setting its DC and all that... but a spellcaster can't prepare that spell as a 3rd level spell. He has to prepare it as a 6th level spell, and thus could NOT put it into a spell-storing weapon.
In the case of spell-storing items (be they rings or weapons or ioun stones or whatever), it's the ACTUAL spell slot level that the spell takes up that matters.
The official response is thus: No you cannot store a maximized 3rd level spell in an item that only allows up to 3rd level spells to be stored, because that maximized 3rd level spell is taking up a 6th level spell slot.
Emphasis Mine.
With Spell Perfection, one can cast their specialized spell, add a metamagic feat they have and not increase the level or casting time of the spell. Hence, one could prepare a 3rd-level Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp (with Magical Lineage of course), then add on Maximize for the cost of 15 ranks in Spellcraft and 4 feats. I think that's a fair trade. And, as far as I can tell, it's RAW, too.
Essentially, is there anything by RAW that says that my original post is incorrect?
Btw, I hope I'm not coming off as pretentious. I'm sincerely not meaning to be. Just hoping to find some answers.
You may as well grab the Spellhunter trait from Drangon Empires if your GM will let you.
Thanks guys.
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Rods pseudo-officially don't work.
Not enough metaphysical hands, I'd wager.
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From what I've read, Spell-Storing weapons use the spell as cast by the Caster who put it there. I take this to mean the CL of the spell, overcoming SR, and the power of the spell itself.
Spell storing items cast the spell at the minimum caster level, not at your caster level. It is noted under the ring of spell storing.
So if you store a first level spell you have a CL of 1.
Spell Perfection says that anytime the Magus casts his chosen spell, he can add any single metamagic feat he has to it, without increasing the level or casting time.
Abilities that affect spells that you cast, like spell perfection, work with the spell you cast, not with spell cast by any item, included spell storing items.
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From what I've read, Spell-Storing weapons use the spell as cast by the Caster who put it there. I take this to mean the CL of the spell, overcoming SR, and the power of the spell itself.Spell storing items cast the spell at the minimum caster level, not at your caster level. It is noted under the ring of spell storing.
So if you store a first level spell you have a CL of 1.
Spell Perfection says that anytime the Magus casts his chosen spell, he can add any single metamagic feat he has to it, without increasing the level or casting time.Abilities that affect spells that you cast, like spell perfection, work with the spell you cast, not with spell cast by any item, included spell storing items.
What? I need to see that in writing please. This is the first time I've heard that.
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It is unclear about what part of the post you find doubtful so a simple reply about both parts.
A minor ring of spell storing contains up to three levels of spells (either divine or arcane, or even a mix of both spell types) that the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell.
For the abilities applying to the spells you cast and not items:
Metamagic: When casting a spell from a scroll, wand, or staff, can I apply one or more of my metamagic feats to that spell?No.
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Question: Can Spell-Storing weapons crit with their spells?
Don't think so, the spell is casted on a separate instance than the weapon hit, and without an attack roll is unable to actually crit.
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Effectively the rules don't say that the spell has the minimum caster level. But then we have a problem.
a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into ita spellcaster can cast any other targeted touch spell of up to 3rd level into it.These are very clear statements. The Spellcaster is actually casting the spell, which means he determines the parameters.
I would love to see the rule that "all magic items work at minimum caster level". Because I see a very clear rule that contradicts that.
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.Makes it rather clear that the caster sets the CL. This actually reverses Diego Rossi's point: the general rule is that the caster sets the CL, which makes the Ring of Spell Storing a specific override to the general rule. Lacking any such override, the weapon and armor properties would use whatever CL is desired, were you to treat them as you would magic item castings (which is... not necessarily valid, to be honest).
Now, it's often wise to aim for the minimum caster level when creating an item. Is doubling the cost of a Wand of Cure Light Wounds worth getting an extra one hit point each time it's used? Not even remotely. But Spell Storing doesn't have that issue, because you're only paying the cost once and that's unrelated to anything else.
The spellcaster clearly casts the spell into the spell storing weapon or armor, as quoted above. Thus it functions as any other time that a spellcaster would cast the spell, and he controls its properties.
What you say is all about the CL of the item, not of the spell stored in it.
Following your line of thought we should use this part of the rules:
Caster Level (CL): The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.
For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.
If we use that the caster level is set by the weapon. So it is always 12 (the CL of the spell storing ability), regardless of the level of the original caster.
The problem is that after it has been put in the weapon, it isn't the caster anymore than cast the spell. It is the weapon. An it should follow the rules for items that cast spells.
And the CL of the spell is set by the item, not by the user. Even when the user is the one that put the spell into the item.
Depends on whether or not you assume there's an attack roll for the spells that normally have it (and thus can crit).
This has been argued into the dirt and there's really no straight answer. Pick between:
*You need an attack roll, so the spell can crit. The spell can also miss; can armor/weapons hold the charge?
*You don't need an attack roll, the spell auto-hits but never crits.
*You can't use touch spells in spell storing weapons/armor because they're not "targeted" spells. This renders Spell Storing Armor totally unusable since it calls out a targeted touch spell.
Pick your poison.
Or you can pick a fourth option:
*The spell uses the attack roll of the hit that it was triggered on, and crits if said hit was a natural 20.
Afterall, you can only use the property on a confirmed hit, and nothing says it can't crit.
Of course, nobody would ever allow this, since it would be grossly overpowered.Well, that, and the fact that it wouldn't make sense for the armor property.
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Forgot about that one, Kaouse. But yeah, what you said on that piece.
It would make Magi even funnier though?
Diego, will you please cite the rule you referenced here:
All the magic items work at minimum CL.And state how you believe it applies to Spell Storing weapons.
I think you have missed the header of the last post:
Effectively the rules don't say that the spell has the minimum caster level. But then we have a problem.
Personally I think that the spell storing ring limit (minimum caster level) apply to all spell storing items. It really easy do to some shenanigan if you use other options.
Option 1: the spell is cast at the CL of the one that put it in.
I pay a NPC caster to put a spell in it and for a small cost I get a one shot magic item that cast a touch spell. not necessarily a damaging spell. Depending on how you see it working it is possible to have it deliver several beneficial touch spells for minimum damage (you can purposefully reduce the damage you deal before rolling the dice, so hitting yourself as if you had STR 3 and no damage enhancing abilities is possible. 1d12+1 (magic ) -4 (str 3) hp of damage can be worth it for the right spell).
Option 2: as RAW the spell is cast by the item at the item CL (i.e. 12 for a spell storing weapon). Getting a spell at CL 12 regardless of my actual CL? It is useful for a long time in a standard campaign.
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Intensified? Yes
Empowered? Yes
Intensified, empowered? No at it is a 4th level spell.
Intensified, empowered, as 1st level spell as you have Spell Perfection+Magical Lineage?
Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon,[b] a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it[b]. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already.
Magical Lineage: One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.
RAW magical lineage should work. It modifies the final level of the spell.
Spell PerfectionYou are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
It don't work. You aren't casting the spell when you hit the target. The weapon is casting it.
The feat allow you to add a metamagic on the fly when you cast the spell. It don't allow you to change the spell to store it in any medium.As soon as you have stored the spell in the weapon there aren't anymore the conditions for applying the feat, so when it is cast by the weapon it fail if its modified level without the feat is above 3.
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We have 2 casting actions.
The spellcaster casting a spell that into the weapon, he can apply spell perfection. But then the spell is cast by the weapon. At that poitn the weapon can't apply spell perfection.
So the weapon has a Intensified, empowered, shocking grasp. Ant that is above 3rd level.
The weapon don't benefit from your feats.
Read again spell perfection: you can apply a metamagic when you cast the spell. You aren't preparing a spell modified by a metamagic, you are adding it on the fly while you cast.
To me that is noticeably different.