Spell Storing + Metamagic Rods


Rules Questions


Just wondering how these combine.

Spell Storing Weapon: "A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon."

Maximize Spell Feat: "A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level."

Metamagic Rods: "This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell."

So, can I store a maximized 3rd level spell in a spell storing weapon (with or without a metamagic rod)?

I'm inclined to believe I can, and I don't even need a metamagic rod, since the spell level doesn't change, just the spell slot used.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

Storing items use the slot required to prepare/cast, so you need a 6th level slot to store a maximized 3rd level spell. Regardless of how you get there. Similarly, a pearl of power (1st level) cannot restore an empowered magic missile, but a 3rd level pearl of power can.


Russ Taylor wrote:
Storing items use the slot required to prepare/cast, so you need a 6th level slot to store a maximized 3rd level spell. Regardless of how you get there. Similarly, a pearl of power (1st level) cannot restore an empowered magic missile, but a 3rd level pearl of power can.

1) the metamagic rod lets you ignore that requirement.

2) That's exactly my point. A spell SLOT. As per the metamagic feat, the spells actual level doesn't change. That's per the feat. Exact quotes were listed above.

I appreciate your response, but I'm not interested in finding out how the slot is used. I understand that. My question pertains to the stored spell inside the item. CAN I STORE A MAXIMIZED 3RD LEVEL SPELL IN A SPELL STORING ITEM?

With a literal reading of the rules, I think I can. I just want an official response.


Jason Rice wrote:
Russ Taylor wrote:
Storing items use the slot required to prepare/cast, so you need a 6th level slot to store a maximized 3rd level spell. Regardless of how you get there. Similarly, a pearl of power (1st level) cannot restore an empowered magic missile, but a 3rd level pearl of power can.

1) the metamagic rod lets you ignore that requirement.

2) That's exactly my point. A spell SLOT. As per the metamagic feat, the spells actual level doesn't change. That's per the feat. Exact quotes were listed above.

I appreciate your response, but I'm not interested in finding out how the slot is used. I understand that. My question pertains to the stored spell inside the item. CAN I STORE A MAXIMIZED 3RD LEVEL SPELL IN A SPELL STORING ITEM?

With a literal reading of the rules, I think I can. I just want an official response.

Most of the time your replies will be from posters on teh boards, those who spend a lot of time with the rules, in russ's case, someone who actually does freelance work for paizo, and rarely, one of the paizo staff themselves. I have to agree with Russ's answer myself. It feels liek you are trying to nitpick and word wrangle to get a much more powerful effect, when the easy answer is already set in front of you just because it's not what you wanted to hear.

Sovereign Court

It's going to be up to your DM as to what they'll allow you to do.

Personally it looks like it works from what I'm reading, the Spell Storing enchant does mention casting a spell into the weapon to refill it and the metamagic rods do say that it doesn't change the spell slot of the altered spell. So you could cast the spell into the spell storing weapon and have the spell effected by a metamagic rod. That said, I wouldn't allow it at my table.

It seems a bit against the spirit of the metamagic rod since you'd get the benefit of that 3/day limit any time afterward that you like. Plus it'd be an easy trick to abuse seeing as spell storing is a very cheap enhancement. The DM could easily turn it against you of course but the idea of a thief dual wielding daggers containing Maximized Vampiric Touch spells seems extra nasty. You could easily have 5 or 6 of them squirreled away. I don't want to have to fight that, especially if she has Quick Draw.

Why don't you shoot Skip Williams an email over at Kobold Quarterly? Who better to ask then the Sage himself for such a tricky question?

Dark Archive

From the Pathfinder PRD regarding ring of spell storing

"A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring, so long as the total spell levels do not add up to more than three. Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat. A spellcaster can use a scroll to put a spell into the minor ring of spell storing."

I would say the same applies for the spell storing feature of the weapon as well

EDIT: The PRD regarding metamagic rods

"Metamagic Rods
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast."

Based on what its saying I think it is quite realistic to allow this even though as a DM i would frown upon it...


Rathendar wrote:
Jason Rice wrote:
Russ Taylor wrote:
Storing items use the slot required to prepare/cast, so you need a 6th level slot to store a maximized 3rd level spell. Regardless of how you get there. Similarly, a pearl of power (1st level) cannot restore an empowered magic missile, but a 3rd level pearl of power can.

1) the metamagic rod lets you ignore that requirement.

2) That's exactly my point. A spell SLOT. As per the metamagic feat, the spells actual level doesn't change. That's per the feat. Exact quotes were listed above.

I appreciate your response, but I'm not interested in finding out how the slot is used. I understand that. My question pertains to the stored spell inside the item. CAN I STORE A MAXIMIZED 3RD LEVEL SPELL IN A SPELL STORING ITEM?

With a literal reading of the rules, I think I can. I just want an official response.

Most of the time your replies will be from posters on teh boards, those who spend a lot of time with the rules, in russ's case, someone who actually does freelance work for paizo, and rarely, one of the paizo staff themselves. I have to agree with Russ's answer myself. It feels liek you are trying to nitpick and word wrangle to get a much more powerful effect, when the easy answer is already set in front of you just because it's not what you wanted to hear.

It's not what I wanted to hear becaus it wasn't answering the question I asked. I had already stated that the spell slot increased (unless you use the metamagic rod), and the answer I got was that the spell slot increased. I was asking about the capability of performing the action, and there was no clear "yes" or "no". I'm sorry if it sounded nitpicky. I'm not trying to nitpick, or be confrontational.

I'm the GM, not a player. I want to know if this is legal because... I want to know if it's legal, not because I want to play this character. Both for my players, and for a gencon event I am co-DMing. I want to put on the best event I can, So I'm trying to get answers to things BEFORE they come up. I want a well planned, rules compliant game.


Morgen wrote:


It seems a bit against the spirit of the metamagic rod since you'd get the benefit of that 3/day limit any time afterward that you like.

I agree, hence the question.

Morgen wrote:


Why don't you shoot Skip Williams an email over at Kobold Quarterly? Who better to ask then the Sage himself for such a tricky question?

Good advice. I just might do that. I really want an "official" answer. Thanks.

Liberty's Edge

Items that works with spells of a given level, vs. metamagic spells taking higher slots but not being higher level, is RAW vs. RAI. The url is a thread I started along the same vein.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/pearlOfMetamagicPower&page=1&source=search#0


After sleeping on it, I've changed my mind. Instead of thinking of this as adding a 6th level spell to a weapon, instead think of it as adding weapon damage (three times per day) to a spell.

Now I actually think the combo is LESS powerful than the spell alone.

Here's why:

1) A maximized vampiric touch is a touch attack. A maximized vampiric touch inside a weapon has to bypass armor. Therefore, it's less likely to hit, by quite a bit.

2) You are only adding the weapon's damage (in this case 1d8+2) to the spell's damage. We are only talking about 6.5 additional damage (average) to the spell's normal output.

3) You can only do this three times a day.

4) Regardless of the source (being cast vs. stored in a weapon), it uses the same ammount of resources.

5) The classes most likely to use a spell storing weapon are spellcasters. They have a lower BAB than the melee classes, and are less effective with weapons.

6) Spell storing has to be on a weapon of +1 enhancement or higher. That costs gp. So does the actual "spell storing" ability. Gold that could be spent on other things that have a more direct benefit to your spellcasting.

So, in the end, you are doing LESS damage per attack than the spell alone, only doing it three times a day, using the same number of spell slots, and paying good money to do all of this.

Hmmm...


kroarty wrote:

Items that works with spells of a given level, vs. metamagic spells taking higher slots but not being higher level, is RAW vs. RAI. The url is a thread I started along the same vein.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/pearlOfMetamagicPower&page=1&source=search#0

That URL doesn't work.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jason Rice wrote:


With a literal reading of the rules, I think I can. I just want an official response.

You're probably not going to get one. But the way the rods seem to work is that they modify the spell as it's being cast. So I'd say that's a no go on using it the way you're intending.

Sovereign Court

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with some of your points actually.

1- You activate the spell when you successfully hit and damage a target as a free action, so you aren't going to waste it on a bad attack roll.

2- It's not about making the spell better it's about making the weapon better, even without this little unusual trick that's what spell storing was always about. Your not adding 1d8 to a spell, your adding 10d6 to a weapon, or in this case 60 damage.

3&4- You can only do the trick 3 times per day, which leaves you every day of rest or travel as being able to pre-load as many as you like. Your carrying over resources from other days. The spell stays in the weapon until it's discharged so it could last days, months or even years. Your only using real resources that day if you refill it after it's been used on that same day.

5- I've never heard anyone say something like this before. I'm sure some spell casters have interest in buying them but it's the martial classes I've ever seen owning spell storing weapons. It gives them a lot more options since there usually are spell casters in the party to fill them up. Vampiric Touch is the popular filling as any melee class can enjoy the extra damage and they really enjoy the temp hit points they get out of it, but even like a Shocking Grasp or a Inflict Serious Wounds is welcome. Then there are spells like Poison if you've got a druid in the party. Heck, even a dagger with Touch of Idiocy could come in handy against a spell caster at the right time.

6- Your looking at 8300gp plus the weapon cost, not exactly a gigantic chunk of change at higher levels where you'd have access to the 14000gp Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize.


Morgen wrote:

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with some of your points actually.

1- You activate the spell when you successfully hit and damage a target as a free action, so you aren't going to waste it on a bad attack roll.

Unless things have changed, you don't waste the spell on a missed attack normally. So this is no change. But perhaps this is only true for some touch attacks, not all of them. Regardless, the chance you wasted your round is 50% more likley with only a +10 to AC. you will be seeing quite a lot of AC's even higher than that by the time you get the ability to perform this trick.

Morgen wrote:


2- It's not about making the spell better it's about making the weapon better, even without this little unusual trick that's what spell storing was always about. Your not adding 1d8 to a spell, your adding 10d6 to a weapon, or in this case 60 damage.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. You see it as "How mych damage can I do if I limit my options to just this weapon?" I see it as "how much damage can I do with ANY of my options?" If the alternative is "just cast the spell normally.", then that is neither ununcommon nor much of a difference in the damage you wold normally do.

Morgen wrote:


3&4- You can only do the trick 3 times per day, which leaves you every day of rest or travel as being able to pre-load as many as you like. Your carrying over resources from other days. The spell stays in the weapon until it's discharged so it could last days, months or even years. Your only using real resources that day if you refill it after it's been used on that same day.

How is this a change from rods/staffs/wands/potions/scrolls/other spell storing items? ALL of them have "pre-loaded" spells.

Morgen wrote:


5- I've never heard anyone say something like this before. I'm sure some spell casters have interest in buying them but it's the martial classes I've ever seen owning spell storing weapons. It gives them a lot more options since there usually are spell casters in the party to fill them up. Vampiric Touch is the popular filling as any melee class can enjoy the extra damage and they really enjoy the temp hit points they get out of it, but even like a Shocking Grasp or a Inflict Serious Wounds is welcome. Then there are spells like Poison if you've got a druid in the party. Heck, even a dagger with Touch of Idiocy could come in handy against a spell caster at the right time.

So, giving the spell-loaded weapon to a PC is different than any number of options that allow you to give a pre-loaded spell to a familiar/spectral hand/whatever?

Morgen wrote:


6- Your looking at 8300gp plus the weapon cost, not exactly a gigantic chunk of change at higher levels where you'd have access to the 14000gp Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize.

I believe some metamagic rods are as low as 3000 gp. Plus there are numerous other options for magical equipment.


Morgen wrote:


3&4- You can only do the trick 3 times per day, which leaves you every day of rest or travel as being able to pre-load as many as you like. Your carrying over resources from other days. The spell stays in the weapon until it's discharged so it could last days, months or even years. Your only using real resources that day if you refill it after it's been used on that same day.

How is this a change from rods/staffs/wands/potions/scrolls/other spell storing items? ALL of them have "pre-loaded" spells.

There's one key difference here, as it's stated:

You could easily spend, say, a week between adventures stocking this thing with your spell. If it's a spell you can cast 3/day, then you just gave yourself 21 uses of that spell. When the adventure is over, maybe you get a month off and add another 60 uses. If the spell is one of many without expensive components, you're really not using up resources at all. A rod/staff/wand/scroll/potion/etc. holds a finite number of charges (scroll, wand, potion), limited uses per day (rod), or is slow to recharge (staff). The staff, while potentially infinite in its uses, can only discharge a max of 10 times before uselessness, then 1 more time per day as you charge it. This item could be preloaded with what amounts to an unlimited number of charges; the limitation on daily uses actually supports it in that regard.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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This does not work.

There is an ambiguity in the language of the spell storing property here that is causing a bit of confusion. The storage process for adding a spell to a spell storing weapon is a special action that is similar, although not the same as casting a spell. The issue here is that the rod applies to a spell as it is being cast, which this is not quite the same.

In the end, this is an issue for your GM to decide, but since I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to issues such as these, I am going to say that this does not work. A spell storing weapon holds a spell of up to 3rd level. A metamagic rod cannot be used during the storage process (although I would probably allow it during the usages of the stored spell... )

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

This does not work.

There is an ambiguity in the language of the spell storing property here that is causing a bit of confusion. The storage process for adding a spell to a spell storing weapon is a special action that is similar, although not the same as casting a spell. The issue here is that the rod applies to a spell as it is being cast, which this is not quite the same.

In the end, this is an issue for your GM to decide, but since I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to issues such as these, I am going to say that this does not work. A spell storing weapon holds a spell of up to 3rd level. A metamagic rod cannot be used during the storage process (although I would probably allow it during the usages of the stored spell... )

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

I'm the GM. That's why I wanted the "official" response. I want to do things the right way, so I won't allow it.

Actually, the heading on the thread is wrong. I should read "metamagic feats" not "metamagic rods", as my question is really about the bold text (above) in the metamagic feat. That's why the question I sent customer service was slightly different than the question above.

So, I understand you are saying that the metamagic rod somehow alters the spell after it's cast. But can the FEAT ITSELF allow this?

If not, since you are releasing eratta anyway, can I suggest an eratta clarifying the language? Perhaps something like...

Maximize Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells have the maximum possible effect.

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell is considered a spell three levels higher than the original spell.

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.

(itallics representing changed text)

Scarab Sages

Here'd be my opinion on the subject:

You use a metamagic rod to cast a maximized third level spell. You only used a third level spell slot to do it. However, now it functions in all ways as a maximized third level spell, putting the total spell level at six when it attempts to lock into the ring.

Or, in other words, the metamagic rod provides those extra three levels for you, three times a day. It doesn't negate the fact that they're needed to power the spell, it just pays the cost for you.

The spell itself should still function as a normal maximized spell.

For the RAW of it: Ring of storing relevant quote

Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat.

the spell level is 3. Maximize modifies spell levels by 3.

The important note here is that it's spell level modified by the metamagic feat.

It has nothing to do with the spell slot used. The metamagic feat adds 3 to the spell level. Metamagic rods mention that the spell slot isn't changed, but doesn't apply that to the spell level. So the spell level would still be too high for the ring.

Silver Crusade Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

I think that there have been a lot of good points here.
I personally think that the rules as they are written are clear and that because metamagic rods do not modify the level of the spell slot they effectively are not higher level spells. I think that a strict interpretation of the rules would let me use a metamagic rod of maximize spell to put a maximized lightning bolt into my +1 longsword of spell-storing.
That said, the question here is really about balance. On that level, I agree with Jason, and think that using the metamagic rod to put a modified spell into a spell-storing weapon makes a metamagic rod more powerful than initially planned to be.
Since the spell can sit in the weapon indefinitely, it means that I can use one of my 3 daily uses of the metamagic rod, have the benefit sit in the weapon and then at dawn have all three uses again, as well as the one still in the weapon.
It works four times for me now!
This is the heart of the issue that I think needs to be addressed because I can use a metamagic rod of empowerment on shocking grasp and still not exceed the 3rd level cap of a spell-storing weapon right now without running afoul of the rules.

My suggestion would be to allow the use of metamagic rods on spells put into spell-storing items. However, while a spell altered by a metamagic rod is IN the spell-storing weapon, the maximum daily uses of the metamagic rod should be depleted by one.

Probably more complex than necessary, but that's my 2 cents.
-QGJ


Lathiira wrote:


There's one key difference here, as it's stated:

You could easily spend, say, a week between adventures stocking this thing with your spell. If it's a spell you can cast 3/day, then you just gave yourself 21 uses of that spell. When the adventure is over, maybe you get a month off and add another 60 uses. If the spell is one of many without expensive components, you're really not using up resources at all. A rod/staff/wand/scroll/potion/etc. holds a finite number of charges (scroll, wand, potion), limited uses per day (rod), or is slow to recharge (staff). The staff, while potentially infinite in its uses, can only discharge a max of 10 times before uselessness, then 1 more time per day as you charge it. This item could be preloaded with what amounts to an unlimited number of charges; the limitation on daily uses actually supports it in that regard.

That's not how the item works. It can only hold 1 spell. So after 1 month "off", you would stil only have 1 spell stored.


Qui-gon Jesse wrote:

I think that there have been a lot of good points here.

I personally think that the rules as they are written are clear and that because metamagic rods do not modify the level of the spell slot they effectively are not higher level spells. I think that a strict interpretation of the rules would let me use a metamagic rod of maximize spell to put a maximized lightning bolt into my +1 longsword of spell-storing.
That said, the question here is really about balance. On that level, I agree with Jason, and think that using the metamagic rod to put a modified spell into a spell-storing weapon makes a metamagic rod more powerful than initially planned to be.
Since the spell can sit in the weapon indefinitely, it means that I can use one of my 3 daily uses of the metamagic rod, have the benefit sit in the weapon and then at dawn have all three uses again, as well as the one still in the weapon.
It works four times for me now!
This is the heart of the issue that I think needs to be addressed because I can use a metamagic rod of empowerment on shocking grasp and still not exceed the 3rd level cap of a spell-storing weapon right now without running afoul of the rules.

My suggestion would be to allow the use of metamagic rods on spells put into spell-storing items. However, while a spell altered by a metamagic rod is IN the spell-storing weapon, the maximum daily uses of the metamagic rod should be depleted by one.

Probably more complex than necessary, but that's my 2 cents.
-QGJ

The exact wording

Metamagic rods wrote:


Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Spell level is not the same thing as spell slot. Spell slots are specifically referring to the slot that is used up by the person who cast the spell. Spell level is referring the the level of the actual spell effect.

A maximized lightning bolt is a 6th level spell no matter how it gets maximized. Someone casting a lightning bolt with a rod of maximize only uses a level 3 spell slot.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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A spell storing weapon can store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level.

That means a spell that a spellcaster can prepare or cast as a cantrip, as a 1st level spell, as a 2nd level spell, or as a 3rd level spell.

A maximized 3rd level spell still functions as a 3rd level spell when it comes to setting its DC and all that... but a spellcaster can't prepare that spell as a 3rd level spell. He has to prepare it as a 6th level spell, and thus could NOT put it into a spell-storing weapon.

In the case of spell-storing items (be they rings or weapons or ioun stones or whatever), it's the ACTUAL spell slot level that the spell takes up that matters.

The official response is thus: No you cannot store a maximized 3rd level spell in an item that only allows up to 3rd level spells to be stored, because that maximized 3rd level spell is taking up a 6th level spell slot.


James Jacobs wrote:


A maximized 3rd level spell still functions as a 3rd level spell when it comes to setting its DC and all that... but a spellcaster can't prepare that spell as a 3rd level spell.

It would be nice if there were different terms than simply 'level' as it gets so damn confusing what can be meant by it.

-James

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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james maissen wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


A maximized 3rd level spell still functions as a 3rd level spell when it comes to setting its DC and all that... but a spellcaster can't prepare that spell as a 3rd level spell.

It would be nice if there were different terms than simply 'level' as it gets so damn confusing what can be meant by it.

-James

Yup. Maybe in 56 years when we do Pathfinder 2nd Edition we'll fix that. :)

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:

A spell storing weapon can store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level.

That means a spell that a spellcaster can prepare or cast as a cantrip, as a 1st level spell, as a 2nd level spell, or as a 3rd level spell.

A maximized 3rd level spell still functions as a 3rd level spell when it comes to setting its DC and all that... but a spellcaster can't prepare that spell as a 3rd level spell. He has to prepare it as a 6th level spell, and thus could NOT put it into a spell-storing weapon.

In the case of spell-storing items (be they rings or weapons or ioun stones or whatever), it's the ACTUAL spell slot level that the spell takes up that matters.

The official response is thus: No you cannot store a maximized 3rd level spell in an item that only allows up to 3rd level spells to be stored, because that maximized 3rd level spell is taking up a 6th level spell slot.

But is that the same if a caster uses a metamagic rod to cast into a spell storing item??


James Jacobs wrote:


In the case of spell-storing items (be they rings or weapons or ioun stones or whatever), it's the ACTUAL spell slot level that the spell takes up that matters.

That sentence still leaves me confused as to WHY a metamagic rod wouldn't work, as the metamagic rods specifically says that the spell SLOT doesn't change (and as you said the spell SLOT is what is important to the storing item).

Please, please, please put out an errata for this (metamagic feats, and/or metamagic rods, and/or spell storing weapons) when you release the next errata sheet. As Jason Bulmahn said above, there is ambiguity in the wording (although, to me, the text seems perfectly clear that it should work).

In the mean time, I'll just tell my player's "NO". When they say "Why?", I'll say, "'Cause James Jacobs said so."

Regardless, now I know which way to rule it for my home game and the Gencon event. I'm probably stressing about minor things that may not even come up. I really want to represent Pathfinder well to the players at the con, some of which may be converting from 3.5 for the first time. First impressions are important.

To add to my stress, this will be the first time I'm DMing a convention event. All of my DM experience prior to this involved friends I know would cut me some slack if I screwed up a ruling. The players at the con will be spending hard earned money purchasing a ticket, and precious convention hours playing at my table, so I really want to do right by them.

Anyway, Jason and James, thanks for the official answer. I still don't understand the why, but at least I have a response that will allow me to make a fair ruling consistent with the designers' intent. I appreciate it.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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The why, is because this clearly violates the intent of the spell storing item, which was meant to be capped at 3rd level. I can see how this seems like an okay way to circumvent that limitation, but this allows certain abuses that were not really intended for a "+1 bonus" weapon enhancement. It lets you get a big spell effect and it allows you to "store" uses of your rod and still have your full compliment on the days when you need them. Clearly these are both outside the original intent of these rules.

That said, the language is a bit unclear. I intend to fix it at the next opportunity, but until then, you have one of two choices. You can either make your own call, which as GM is perfectly within your purview, or you can cite my reasoning and go with my answer. The choice is yours, but for the time being, I consider this issue closed.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


I am trying to get a second level spell maximized into a spell storing weapon. I have read this post and it has answered all but one of my questions. What about feats that reduce the metamagic cost. I play D&D 3.5, so I am not sure if this applies, but I have to ask. I see two feats that reduce the cost of maximize. If I spend a third level slot on a second level spell (through feats) can it be put on a spell storing weapon?


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

This does not work.

There is an ambiguity in the language of the spell storing property here that is causing a bit of confusion. The storage process for adding a spell to a spell storing weapon is a special action that is similar, although not the same as casting a spell. The issue here is that the rod applies to a spell as it is being cast, which this is not quite the same.

In the end, this is an issue for your GM to decide, but since I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to issues such as these, I am going to say that this does not work. A spell storing weapon holds a spell of up to 3rd level. A metamagic rod cannot be used during the storage process (although I would probably allow it during the usages of the stored spell... )

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Sorry for the bump. Wanted to be clear.

This ruling makes complete sense, and I'm down with it (currently GMing Pathfinder for the first time after 20+ years of dnd) but it sounds like this:

If I'm a fighter and I have a spell storing sword and a greater maximize rod on my person, and I get my friendly mage to store a lightning bolt in my sword, then I can maximize my swing when I discharge the lightning bolt because it's during delivery and not during storage.

Is that the intent of the clarification?

Similarly related, do rods need to be equipped in an off hand to work? Or simply on your person?


beej67 wrote:


Similarly related, do rods need to be equipped in an off hand to work? Or simply on your person?

They need to be held in your hand.

The text for rods: "Activation: Details relating to rod use vary from item to item. Unless noted otherwise, you must be holding a rod to use its abilities. See the individual descriptions for specifics."

And furthermore the metamagic rods specifies "the wielder can cast...", and wielding entails holding the item in hand.

The only rod I can remember on top of my head that only need to be carried on your person is rod of splendor.


Last night I ran into an issue with a player who wanted to another PC to cast an intensified shocking grasp spell into his spellstoring scimitar. I initially said it wasnt possible but the only references I found during the game were the Spellstoring rings and the Spellstoring magic weapon feature.

The ring had one part that was pertinent to the discussion: "Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat"

Although it wasnt the same wording in the spellstoring enchantment.

So after looking at the boards I saw this and I looked at both Jason and James' comments. Nothing on the FAQ either.

I ruled he could during the game but I wanted to see if anyone had input on this.


Shivok wrote:

Last night I ran into an issue with a player who wanted to another PC to cast an intensified shocking grasp spell into his spellstoring scimitar. I initially said it wasnt possible but the only references I found during the game were the Spellstoring rings and the Spellstoring magic weapon feature.

The ring had one part that was pertinent to the discussion: "Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat"

Although it wasnt the same wording in the spellstoring enchantment.

So after looking at the boards I saw this and I looked at both Jason and James' comments. Nothing on the FAQ either.

I ruled he could during the game but I wanted to see if anyone had input on this.

My response would be that it is allowed. An intensified shocking grasp is equivalent of an 2nd lvl spell, and thus eligible for a spellstoring weapon.


Magical Lineage loweres adjusted level so you could have an Intensified-Empowered Shocking Grasp CL 10, 10d6x1.5 (15d6)essentially. As this would be a 3rd level spell (1 +1 +2 -1 = 3)

Incense of Meditation maximizes all divine spells for a day, though this probably works like the metamagic rod. same goes for Metamagic Mastery universal wizard power.

-Flash


Glad to see official answer in this. This is what I would had ruled:

No, it doesn't work.

Rod can maximize the spell WHEN IT'S CAST.

A spellstoring item store a spell, but it is NOT cast into the item. If you cast a Shocking grasp to the item, the item would take damage. What you do, is to STORE a spell into the item. It's never said that the spell is cast. Just that it's wasted from the caster slot/memorization.

The rod could, however, maximize the spell when it's CAST. That is, when it is discharged from the sword. So if your character is holding a Spell Storing weapon, and a Maximizing rod in the other hand, it could hit with his Vampiric touch and maximize it


I understand this ruling, i wouldn't try to pull this off in a game normally, but check Paragraph.

"Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description"

So in all ways, a maximized Vampire touch is a level 3 spell, in-spite of its spell slot. I understand is mainly meant to lower the strength of the spell, in comparison to its spell slot, but would also apply to when having a lower spell level is beneficial. I.e. crafting costs and yes spell storing.

"A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.)"

No mention of spell slot, just spell level. Which i pointed out is "In all ways" its original spell level.

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