Hello all. I have an 8th level rogue that's getting set to level and I was hoping for some advice on what to do... just some ideas in general. I am open to anything. I kind of toyed with the idea of going after levels in bard or fighter. But I don't know if that will do more harm than good really.
Let me start off by saying I like interesting much more than optimized. I come up with a concept and build around that. But unfortunately, I think a few of the other players are much more experienced in Pathfinder than I am and knew better how to build "strong" characters (where I just went for what I thought might be fun. The end result is, in combat, I am kind of weak. But because the other players have stronger (and higher level) characters, the GM has had to make things challenging for them. The problem for me is this has made fighting near impossible at times for my character. I am no better than the summoned creatures that fight with us. The best thing I have going for me is flanking for the other characters (and being hard to hit with a high AC).
In our last session, the only way I could hit anything was with a natural 20. I "won" one of our biggest battles by using diplomacy and my very poor role playing skills, lol. I am quickly being outpaced by the other characters in the party (especially the spell casters--although I did come in handy when the cleric wasn't around and I could use magic device and use a divine wand to help one of our mages with my super charisma).
We are playing the Kingmaker campaign and my character somehow has become the baroness of our little territory. She's a human, a drunk, a gambler, and (as I mentioned) a rogue. Think of her more as a swashbuckling, silver tongued, three-musketeers kind of rogue more so than a thief. I've pumped a lot into diplomatic and charisma-based skills and she fights using dervish dance. She has a heart of gold and is kind and generous... she is neutral good.
We are also mythic characters and I took the trickster class--it blended well with rouge and my role as the party "face." I mainly took things related to sneak attack and making that more deadly... but mostly I use "display of charisma" which, when I use it, gives me +20 to any charisma-based role (both for diplomacy and feint).
Stat wise and such, here's what I have so far:
S- 10
Dex- 21
Con- 10
Int- 14
Wis- 12
Cha- 14 (16 with a headband I wear)
Feats
-Armour Prof light
-Combat expertise +/-2
-Dervish Dance
-Dodge
-Dodge (mythic)
-Improved Feint
-Mobility
-Rogue Weapon Proficiencies
-Simple Weapon Proficiency - all
-Weapon Finesse
-Weapon Focus (scimitar)
-Weapon Focus (mythic scimitar)
Traits
-Blade Bravado
-Fortified Drinker
-Special Abilities
-Amazing Initiative
-Bane (fey) from my weapon
-Bleeding Attack +4
-Display of Charisma
-Evasion
-Hard to Kill
-Improved Uncanny Dodge
-Legendary Power
-Legendary Surge
-Surprise Strike
-Treacherous Critical
-Offensive Defense
I have a bunch of magical items too, which I won't list. But I will mention my weapon. With the mythic template and such, I chose to make "The Lonely Blade" my legendary weapon. I have a mythic bond to the weapon.
My weapon (The Lonely Blade) has the abilities of
- returning (it can teleport back to me)
- unstoppable strike
- upgradable
Thanks!
Wait 3 weeks.
Pathfinder Unchained is introducing a Rogue which automatically gets Weapon Finesse as a Bonus Feat, and some trick which will get Dex to Damage.
On top of that, the Rogue is getting OTHER options which let them use skills in different ways than every other class. No explanation given for this, really - just that they can make use of Skills in ways that other classes can't.
Finally, Rogues aren't just "Sneak Attack a Fool" - they're a bit more focused on tactical combat and maneuvering; they can apply "Hinderances," one of which has been spoiled as to preventing opponents hit by a Sneak Attack from moving AT ALL. Another tactical ability seems to be granting to-hit bonuses to your allies, as well as giving some to yourself.
With your 3/4 BAB, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and magic weapon, your attack bonus should be high enough that you don't need a 20 to hit something. Although there might be one of two enemies where this is the case if you find them early. With your Dex-to-damage, expanded crit range, and sneak attack, your damage rolls shouldn't be meaningless. As a rogue, you need to be even more tactically-minded than others. If you can take a 5-ft step to prevent an enemy from full-attacking, or force it to move into a flank in order to attack, you need to be doing so at every opportunity. A rogue must never fight fair. A rogue must be an unfailing scoundrel and opportunist in matters of life or death. When an enemy is vulnerable you must be ready to throw everything you have at it. And then there is teamwork. If your party members are not 5-ft stepping to make your flanks easier, and are not casting the occasional buff spell on you, then they are doing you and the entire party a disservice. Can anyone in your party cast greater invisibility?
You should really, really talk to your DM about the leveling thing. PF does not adjust, as Atarlost said.
Unless he's fast-tracking you to catch you up in a session or two, you should just be the same level as the rest of the party.
First off, thank you!
When I hit, I do hit hard... although I still hit the weakest of anyone and like I said, I've had a hard time hitting things at all and this isn't the only time I've needed a natural 20 to hit (which gets old pretty quickly). Maybe that will be resolved with leveling. I am level 8 the rest of the part is 10 right now. I am leveling up to 10 by next session. Which is why I am asking for advice now too... so I don't mess things up too much.
The barbarian in the party tends to get the buffs more so than me, but he's also our big melee damage dealer, more so than I am. I've made myself hard to hit and I help him out with flanking and such. I also tend to be good at maneuvering enemies where the rest of the party can do the best damage (usually thorough RP and taunting and such). Plus I will do things other than just fight that end up helping us out.
This past session, greater invisibility was used on my character (and it helps too). Although with feint and surprise strike, I can accomplish nearly the same thing.
I'll be honest, a lot of times I forget everything I can do too (it gets to be a lot after a while)... for example, I often forget about the unstoppable strike bypassing armor (although I think I have to spend a mythic point to do that). I can be my own worse enemy too. I am new to Pathfinder and the rules of this game (of course, how much longer can I claim "new" now that I got a character to 8th level).
I am curious to see how the new rules on skills will work. I need to look up hindrance too. Too bad we play again before they come out.
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Keeping you behind in level is pretty s%#%ty. And I don't see how feinting could possibly be as good as greater invisibility.
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Let me start off by saying I like interesting much more than optimized. I come up with a concept and build around that. But unfortunately, I think a few of the other players are much more experienced in Pathfinder than I am and knew better how to build "strong" characters (where I just went for what I thought might be fun. The end result is, in combat, I am kind of weak.
the idea that 'roleplay' and 'rollplay' are inherently contradictory, when to be honest... that's nowhere near true. You could certainly build your character to be thematically identical but far superior mechanically.
She's a human, a drunk, a gambler, and (as I mentioned) a rogue. Think of her more as a swashbuckling, silver tongued, three-musketeers kind of rogue more so than a thief.
They have a swashbuckler class..But You can be a drunk, silver tongued roguish type with many different classes other than being stuck taking mechanically the worst class in the game. The slayer for instance could do most of everything your character is doing but better because mechanically it is stronger. Basically you can play a class with any attitude or backstory you want to give it and don't have to be stuck with sub-par choices.
Wait 3 weeks.Pathfinder Unchained is introducing a Rogue which automatically gets Weapon Finesse as a Bonus Feat, and some trick which will get Dex to Damage.
I honestly feel you should have went slayer and wouldn't have the issues of hitting, passing fortitude saves, and doing more consistent damage. But that is neither here nor there.
This bump to rogue may help alittle but I do not believe it helps pull the rogue on par with classes that can do both skills and combat better than a rogue. They are boosting their combat efficiency but still neglecting their piss poor saves and ignoring the skill problems.
But that is still better than current base rogue and perhaps will allow you to pick up slashing grace with your scimitar focus in place of your weapon finesse feat.
Going forward I would find a way to bump up your Fortitude save as well as your to hit. Someone mentioned dipping ranger which is a very good dip as well as slayer.
Another option might be Vivisectionist alchemist. It addresses your Fortitude deficiency and allows you to continue both SA progression and adding Potion effects to boost your skills. You also don't lose many skills per level. Only down side is it isn't a full BaB class but I believe getting that sweet DEX mutagen will make up for that.
But there you go you have a few choice in my book. Wait for rogue unchained, or Dip Slayer/Ranger/Viv Alchemist.
This bump to rogue may help alittle but I do not believe it helps pull the rogue on par with classes that can do both skills and combat better than a rogue. They are boosting their combat efficiency but still neglecting their piss poor saves and ignoring the skill problems.
Have they said this much, that the saves are staying underwhelming and other classes still do skills better than a Rogue?
The answer's a giant, neon-glowing "no."
The statements I made regarding what the Rogue will be able to do are all quotes from Paizo blogs or from Gencon panels that can be found online.
Your "well, it's still bad because it's the Rogue" stuff is purely conjecture with no evidence to back it up.
Don't go saying "it's still going to be bad" until you actually see the final product.
So far, what they've partly spoiled sounds like not only will the Skill-Monkey role be thrown fairly squarely back into the Rogue's camp, by way of Rogues doing unique tricks with Skills that no other classes can do, but it seems like they're also going to be important in regards to positioning and combat control.
The Saves MAY stay janky, yes, but the Rogue may also be given special abilities which supplement their bad Saves - after all, the devs have said that several to many Rogue Talents will be getting power boosts, so a terrible Will or Fort might actually become fairly solid. Or the Unchained Rogue may just get a good Fort Save.
I'm staying positive that the Unchained Rogue will actually be extremely solid, given everything that we've seen & heard about it so far.
I'm staying positive that the Unchained Rogue will actually be extremely solid, given everything that we've seen & heard about it so far.
What have we heard about it so far?
I would not be surprised in the slightest if the new rogue was pretty weak sauce. Terrible numbers are only part of the rogue's problem. The other is basically that the majority of skills as written are mostly negated outside combat by spells or sheer creativity, and are mostly useless inside combat(the ones that are useful, such as monster knowledge skills, aren't the rogue's forte anyway).
For the rogue to actually be decent it would either have to
a)be boosted up enough to stand on it's own as a front line combatant with some decent skill utility(putting it a bit behind the ranger, but still a good enough improvement for it to be kinda weak instead of atrocious as it is now without silly levels of optimization)
b)get some sort of spellcasting mechanic (or pseudo spellcasting e.g. extracts)
c)get a big pile of strong, useful, combat relevant special abilities (possibly using skills) that are only available with rogue talents or through rogue class features. If the skill abilities aren't essentially restricted to rogue only other classes will probably benefit from them more and the rogue will still be weaker than the alternatives (unless the rogue also gets class features that boost skills like other classes have).
I have serious doubts that the new rogue is going to have any of these done properly. I hope I am wrong - being able to tell a poster "Old rogue sucks, play the new one because the devs made it as a replacement to the old rogue but without the horrible suckage" is a lot easier than telling the poster "Rogue sucks - make yourself an investigator/bard/slayer/whatever fits your concept and just call yourself a rogue". I just doubt that I am wrong.
It is not getting spellcasting. It is supposed to be getting more bonuses to skills from what I remember so it is actually better at skills. It also is supposed to be able to apply debuffs to bad guys, and get some more neat tricks, along with some of the talents being improved upon. Those weak talents are definitely not helping.
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@MellowCalico
While I don't doubt that you can make optimized character, I believe your Core problem is that player styles don't mesh up well. You need to inform and talk with your group about this otherwise they won't know it, until you mention it. You should be able to probably solve the problem through talk and cooperation of your fellow players.
I never played Mythic, but I imagine also that you might have problems in doing damage because everything dies to fast. Try playing Str rogue or simply ask for retrain in another class. You have a lot of options as long as GM is generous.
Adam
as you have a legendery item and other mythic abilities. let me advice you to take next mythical feat as this . if you later on get intelegnt+spellcasting for your weapon it will give it a +4 (+2 to tier and caster level of item is 2X tier) to caster level,beside what it will do to your other tier based abilities.
It is not getting spellcasting. It is supposed to be getting more bonuses to skills from what I remember so it is actually better at skills. It also is supposed to be able to apply debuffs to bad guys, and get some more neat tricks, along with some of the talents being improved upon. Those weak talents are definitely not helping.
Bear in mind, you MAY be contradicting yourself slightly there.
Rogues aren't getting spellcasting (thankfully), but one of the called-out Talents that are getting a bump is Minor Magic, which gives you a Cantrip as an at-will SLA now.
So, not spellcasting, but if both Minor and Major Magic are getting upgrades, then that starts to help out significantly.
I'm half expecting Finesse Rogue to be completely replaced with a "Dex to Damage" Talent, since Rogues will now get Weapon Finesse as a Bonus Feat simply for being Rogues.
Awesome talents all the way!
For the rogue to actually be decent it would either have to
a)be boosted up enough to stand on it's own as a front line combatant with some decent skill utility(putting it a bit behind the ranger, but still a good enough improvement for it to be kinda weak instead of atrocious as it is now without silly levels of optimization)
The Rogue is apparently getting a trick where it gains something like a +4 to hit while everyone else gets +2
b)get some sort of spellcasting mechanic (or pseudo spellcasting e.g. extracts)
Yeah, no, Rogues are remaining pure-martial. Minor Magic (and perhaps Major) are getting a boost, however.
c)get a big pile of strong, useful, combat relevant special abilities (possibly using skills) that are only available with rogue talents or through rogue class features. If the skill abilities aren't essentially restricted to rogue only other classes will probably benefit from them more and the rogue will still be weaker than the alternatives (unless the rogue also gets class features that boost skills like other classes have).
As said, Rogues apparently now have tricks unique to them. Very likely their most-powerful Skill Tricks will be Acrobatics, Intimidate, and Bluff, as those are the most "roguish".
Rogues are also getting the ability to apply unique Status Conditions to enemies hit by their attacks - like "Hampered" which, according to the GenCon panel, is that a creature hit by a Rogue's Sneak Attack cannot move AT ALL, meaning the Rogue locks them in-place and continues to unleash Sneak-Attack nonsense.
I have serious doubts that the new rogue is going to have any of these done properly. I hope I am wrong - being able to tell a poster "Old rogue sucks, play the new one because the devs made it as a replacement to the old rogue but without the horrible suckage" is a lot easier than telling the poster "Rogue sucks - make yourself an investigator/bard/slayer/whatever fits your concept and just call yourself a rogue". I just doubt that I am wrong.
Well, you are probably absolutely wrong, because people who've been given advanced copies of the books apparently are very pleased.
Given that what's been spoiled have addressed all those points (well, maybe not the spellcasting, but not every class needs spellcasting, and while giving them Extracts would be thematically appropriate as an alternative, that'd just make the Rogue a clone of the Vivisectionist, when it really should be entirely separate; instead, improved Talents seem to be the answer to THAT complaint), I'd have to say that Paizo's been listening to what people wanted, and have made some pretty substantial positive changes.
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Chb
I hope they do fix the rogue. Tired of seeing it suck over the years. Maybe might be worth playing. We will see I will pick up a copy of unchained for sure.
Here is hoping.
For my house games I give rogues the choice between alchemist saves or investigator and I give them naturally +4 when flanking. It has helped out some but I am looking forward to unchained. Developers do much better patching than I can. Tho my home group has very much hate for rogues
So I guess the advice is wait. Although it stinks because we play again a week before the new unchained book comes out. I wonder if my GM will let me put off leveling just one more session.
I will look into slayer as well (someone mentioned that earlier). Ranger looks nice, but doesn't really fit my character concept.
Thanks for all the input!
Swashbuckler, Gunslinger, Slayer, or Fighter might be best. Maybe Urban Barbarian to get Dex Rage.
It sounds like your character isn't supposed to be a damage dealer, but battlefield control. You use taunts and stuff to move NPCs around the battlefield, and that is actually pretty powerful. You can position the NPCs where you want, and they might even draw AoOs from you AND your allies. You might even want to invest in equipment that alters the battle field, like caltrops, wands of grease , create pit, wall of X, ring of the ram, etc. Or get the party wizard to make you fun and exciting scrolls.
EDIT:
Improved Dirty Trick and Greater Dirty Trick might work with your style of combat, too. It makes the NPCs worse (blinded, sickened, shaken, etc.), which can help your allies.
So I guess the advice is wait. Although it stinks because we play again a week before the new unchained book comes out. I wonder if my GM will let me put off leveling just one more session.
I will look into slayer as well (someone mentioned that earlier). Ranger looks nice, but doesn't really fit my character concept.
Thanks for all the input!
Just straight up ask your GM if you can rebuild as the New Rogue class when it comes out.
He will probably be curious about it, so you can let him see it in action.
Check out the Swashbuckler class (maybe even the mysterious avenger archetype) or the Duelist prestige class or the chevalier prestige class.
I'm not firm in mythic rules but getting an intelligent weapon sounds like awesome fun. I assume the weapon is a scimitar, yes? Why returning? Do you throw it often? The upgradable property will allow you to customize this item easily which will allow you to make it quite awesome. Check out the Sylvan Scimitar for a possible upgrade.
Ask the DM about retraining, but stick to your concept and don't go for a complete rebuild. Retraining feats which you gain as bonus feats though could free up some resources and allow you to slightly adjust your build.
What are the other characters?
Finally a random thought: Get a flank buddy and assistant.
A) Familiar!
Maybe via Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan bloodline) [Note this isn't PFS legal, but i would allow it] or maybe via a few levels ofEldritch Guardin Fighter. Check out Familiar archetypes
B) Cohort! Via leadership. Pseudodragon maybe.