What some find cheesy isn't going to be true for everyone. Personally I find Frostbite cheesy; I hate the spell, I hate the builds it's resulted in. But that doesn't really mean anything if somebody wants to run a Frostbite Magus.
Conversely, I love the flavor of Spellstriking Shocking Grasp. The idea of an arcane warrior channeling lightning into his weapon is awesome. The fact that it's mechanically awesome helps too.
But you can use whatever attack spell you like-- and as a caster, you should be willing to mix it up. Options are critical. If you want an Intensified Fireball, go for it. If all we're looking at is raw, single-target damage, it's going to lose out to an equal spell level Grasp, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a place.
Dire Mongoose wrote: Aelryinth wrote:
Stuff...
We'll have to agree to disagree.
I'm going by what's actually written. You're the one who's decided that abilities that you get for picking a class, that other classes don't get, are somehow not class features. Not sure how that makes sense even to you, much less anyone else. Uh, no. You're going by what you want to happen.
You're saying you can use UMD to use Pages of Spell Knowledge or a Ring of Spell Knowledge to get extra Spells Known.
ANd you can't, since you're not a spontaneous caster. You can ACTIVATE them, but it does you no good, since you don't have spells known, spells castable, access to the spell list, nor spontaneous spellcasting ability. in short, you activated the item to get a Spell Known that has nowhere to be put, you can't cast it, and so it's useless to you.
==Aelryinth
Cap. Darling wrote: Dire Mongoose wrote: Aelryinth wrote:
Stuff...
We'll have to agree to disagree.
I'm going by what's actually written. You're the one who's decided that abilities that you get for picking a class, that other classes don't get, are somehow not class features. Not sure how that makes sense even to you, much less anyone else. how do you get the Spell memorised when you have made the UMD chek? Or is it enoug to emulate spontanious Spell casting, so every body get free spells all Day long with a ring of spell knowledge and a UMD DC 20? He can't.
he can activate the item by emulating the class feature. Since he doesn't have the class features to actually use the Spell Known, it's useless. The item literally has nowhere to put the spell.
==Aelryinth
kestral287 wrote: It would be smart to lead Quickened with most setups, so if you miss with that Quickened shot you use your Spell Combat attack last, giving you four extra chances to deliver. However, that instance then creates the possibility to miss with the second Spellstrike and push that damage back to next round. Why not lead with your Spell Combat attack, and then cast the quickened Shocking Grasp and take the free attack after your first successful hit.
Since it's a swift action, which can be taken any time a free action can be taken, and since free actions can be taken during other actions, you can in theory cast your quickened shocking grasp/spellstrike in the middle of your full attack action.
swift actions can only be taken on your turn.
Immediate actions can be taken on other people's turns.
==Aelryinth
_Ozy_ wrote: kestral287 wrote: It would be smart to lead Quickened with most setups, so if you miss with that Quickened shot you use your Spell Combat attack last, giving you four extra chances to deliver. However, that instance then creates the possibility to miss with the second Spellstrike and push that damage back to next round. Why not lead with your Spell Combat attack, and then cast the quickened Shocking Grasp and take the free attack after your first successful hit.
Since it's a swift action, which can be taken any time a free action can be taken, and since free actions can be taken during other actions, you can in theory cast your quickened shocking grasp/spellstrike in the middle of your full attack action. this is debatable. But dosent really impact on the High level damage of the magus so meta not go in to that.
Aelryinth wrote: swift actions can only be taken on your turn.
Immediate actions can be taken on other people's turns.
==Aelryinth
Uh yeah, was anyone claiming differently?
_Ozy_ wrote: kestral287 wrote: It would be smart to lead Quickened with most setups, so if you miss with that Quickened shot you use your Spell Combat attack last, giving you four extra chances to deliver. However, that instance then creates the possibility to miss with the second Spellstrike and push that damage back to next round. Why not lead with your Spell Combat attack, and then cast the quickened Shocking Grasp and take the free attack after your first successful hit.
Since it's a swift action, which can be taken any time a free action can be taken, and since free actions can be taken during other actions, you can in theory cast your quickened shocking grasp/spellstrike in the middle of your full attack action. You didn't put a limit on that statement there, Ozy.
==Aelryinth
Ah, yes I guess I had assumed that 'taken during other actions' meant confined to actions during your turn. But I can see how someone might interpret that to try to take a free action during an immediate action.
Thanks for the correction.
Its good to remember that the Magus also has more options than just damage at high level... nothing like full attacking an enemy and laying down a wall of force to stop anyone else getting in to help!
Corrosive consumption is a pretty excellent spell for damage boosting a high-level magus. With Intensified cast, you're looking at 20 damage the first round, 20d4 the second round, and 20d6 the third round. Add that to the spells you're also casting and delivering those second and third rounds, and it's pretty strong.
cartmanbeck wrote: Corrosive consumption is a pretty excellent spell for damage boosting a high-level magus. With Intensified cast, you're looking at 20 damage the first round, 20d4 the second round, and 20d6 the third round. Add that to the spells you're also casting and delivering those second and third rounds, and it's pretty strong. That is an odd spell for conjuration, since it is affected by spell resistance.
With a range of touch, odds are only a magus or something similar would ever use it, as opposed to wizards and sorcerers.
cartmanbeck wrote: Corrosive consumption is a pretty excellent spell for damage boosting a high-level magus. With Intensified cast, you're looking at 20 damage the first round, 20d4 the second round, and 20d6 the third round. Add that to the spells you're also casting and delivering those second and third rounds, and it's pretty strong. Even without intensifying it, it's pretty good damage. An average of 105 acid damage over three rounds is nothing to sneeze at. (Intensified and at 20th level, it's 140). The downside is that an enemy taking a full attack with spell combat may not be around on round 2, let alone round 3 and that the damage is subject to acid resistance three times. So, while 105 damage doesn't sound like a bad use of a 5th level spell slot and (and 140 in a sixth level slot is comparable to a no-save harm), it will often fail to live up to its promise.
Even so, it is one of the few damage over time spells that actually looks interesting because it does add up to a lot of damage so it could be worth looking at ways to make it work.
in looking at avg DPR calculations for the Magus with spellstrike I wonder is everyone is everyone taking into account SR and immunities on shocking grasp? as from game play I have found that in higher level encounters this is not that uncommon.
Cloyes wrote: in looking at avg DPR calculations for the Magus with spellstrike I wonder is everyone is everyone taking into account SR and immunities on shocking grasp? as from game play I have found that in higher level encounters this is not that uncommon. I generally don't.
If you're a Grasp-centric Magus, you bring answers to these (and they're really not hard answers to find).
If you're not, then you don't care, because if it's immune to electricity you just throw a Black Tentacles at it instead.
Besides the Elemental and Piercing feats what answers do you bring? they may not be hard to find but for a newb like me there is a great amount of material to go through, and it has become a problem in the Devil-centric adventure that I am currently in.
Most devils dont elec resistance. Spell penetration will be good.
My soul forger has done more effective net damage by maximizing the entire party's gear during downtime than he could even think to dish out directly - and he was still able to dish out a LOT of direct damage...
Cloyes wrote: Besides the Elemental and Piercing feats what answers do you bring? they may not be hard to find but for a newb like me there is a great amount of material to go through, and it has become a problem in the Devil-centric adventure that I am currently in. SR:
Spell Penetration & Greater are staples of course. A Grasp-centric Magus at the high levels is going to take Spell Perfection too, which doubles Penetration & Greater to basically ignore SR.
Elves make good Magi and get another +2, though they're batting for third as optimal Magus races go.
Tieflings can pick up the Grasping Tail feat to hold a metamagic rod (cross-check it with your GM on the meaning of the word "manipulate", but it's accepted in my little corner of the world at least), and thus can use a Lesser Rod of Piercing-- a mere 3000 gp for +5 vs. SR for three spells per day.
And then we have caster level increases. The Orange Prism Ioun Stone is a simple-but-useful +1. The Otherworldly Kimono is an extremely effective item that's a staple of casters everywhere. Spell Specialization can actually be a decent choice, though emphasis "decent"-- it does useful things, but look to the Penetrations first.
Resistances:
Elemental Spell. If you're a Tiefling with Grasping Tail and the Rods thing, a Lesser Elemental Rod is 3000 gp. You can afford to carry three, one keyed to each non-electric element, easily enough. Otherwise you can just take the feat-- I believe Electric + Acid gives the broadest range of coverage.
And, finally... frankly even if you're a Grasp-centric Magus, you still have a book full of other spells. If you really can't break his Immunity to Electricity, start throwing out spells like Enervation or Haste. If you can't break his SR, Haste still works fine, or you can bring in Cloudkill.
Cap. Darling wrote: Most devils dont elec resistance. Spell penetration will be good. sorry I miss spoke I meant Demon ( most have immunity to Elec.) not Devil
kestral287 wrote: Cloyes wrote: Besides the Elemental and Piercing feats what answers do you bring? they may not be hard to find but for a newb like me there is a great amount of material to go through, and it has become a problem in the Devil-centric adventure that I am currently in. SR:
Spell Penetration & Greater are staples of course. A Grasp-centric Magus at the high levels is going to take Spell Perfection too, which doubles Penetration & Greater to basically ignore SR.
Elves make good Magi and get another +2, though they're batting for third as optimal Magus races go.
Tieflings can pick up the Grasping Tail feat to hold a metamagic rod (cross-check it with your GM on the meaning of the word "manipulate", but it's accepted in my little corner of the world at least), and thus can use a Lesser Rod of Piercing-- a mere 3000 gp for +5 vs. SR for three spells per day.
And then we have caster level increases. The Orange Prism Ioun Stone is a simple-but-useful +1. The Otherworldly Kimono is an extremely effective item that's a staple of casters everywhere. Spell Specialization can actually be a decent choice, though emphasis "decent"-- it does useful things, but look to the Penetrations first.
Resistances:
Elemental Spell. If you're a Tiefling with Grasping Tail and the Rods thing, a Lesser Elemental Rod is 3000 gp. You can afford to carry three, one keyed to each non-electric element, easily enough. Otherwise you can just take the feat-- I believe Electric + Acid gives the broadest range of coverage.
And, finally... frankly even if you're a Grasp-centric Magus, you still have a book full of other spells. If you really can't break his Immunity to Electricity, start throwing out spells like Enervation or Haste. If you can't break his SR, Haste still works fine, or you can bring in Cloudkill. Thank you! you also bring up a good point I was looking into Meta rods as they seem like they are perfect for the Magus but Tieflings and non-core races are not an option ( with the one time exception of Drow which mine is) so are their work arounds to make them more practical with spell strike, I was hoping to see if I could research some thing like the "weapon wand" spell but doubt my GM would go for it
My PFS magus has a lesser empower metamagic helmet, the Acrimony Veil, from "In Wrath's Shadow", works on evocation spells only, and it does Rage once per day.
CraziFuzzy wrote: My soul forger has done more effective net damage by maximizing the entire party's gear during downtime than he could even think to dish out directly - and he was still able to dish out a LOT of direct damage... Me too as I took craft Wondrous item at 3rd to make stuff for the party, BUT a couple of things:
1) being Ye Old Magic shop for the party is not as fun a role, and I could see where some player would then "expect" you to craft for them rather than work on your own buffs ( note NONE of mine do but I could see it happening)
2) if you are playing in a campaign such as mine "downtime" doesn't happen or we have to role play it, yes there is the alternate rules using camp time, lunches etc. but this is very slow and at upper levels this is even more noticeable, a headband of mental superiority +4 takes a full month even crafting at double speed with out the alternate downtime penalties!
also this no different than for a "full caster" in fact they are even better at it as they get higher level spells than you
LazarX wrote: My PFS magus has a lesser empower metamagic helmet, the Acrimony Veil, from "In Wrath's Shadow", works on evocation spells only, and it does Rage once per day. sounds great but it also sounds like a unique campaign magical item I doubt my GM will allow me to craft
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Cloyes wrote: Thank you! you also bring up a good point I was looking into Meta rods as they seem like they are perfect for the Magus but Tieflings and non-core races are not an option ( with the one time exception of Drow which mine is) so are their work arounds to make them more practical with spell strike, I was hoping to see if I could research some thing like the "weapon wand" spell but doubt my GM would go for it Well, Drow isn't helping your case. But realistically, you can always just... take the feat
Without looking at your build it's hard to make specific recommendations, but a race-neutral Grasp-centric Magus looking to pick up the core damage components and then emphasize Shocking Grasp might look like this:
Traits: Wayang Spellhunter, whatever (Magical Lineage would be a strong pick but I don't like to assume both traits)
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Dervish Dance
3A: Flamboyant Arcana
5: Extra Arcana: Arcane Deed: Precise Strike
5M: Intensify Spell
6A: Arcane Accuracy
7: Spell Penetration
9: Elemental Spell (Acid)
9A: Accurate Strike
11: Greater Spell Penetration
11M: Empower Spell
12A: Arcane Deed: Evasive
13: Quicken Spell or Maximize Spell
15: Spell Perfection (Shocking Grasp)
15A: Bane Blade
17: Piercing Spell
17M: Quicken Spell or Maximize Spell
18A: Reflection
19: Greater Weapon Focus
Some immediate tricks available:
-Two feats can get you +4 vs. SR with Spell Penetration & Greater. Or, two feats can you get +5 vs. SR with Shocking Grasp and a random other bonus, with Piercing Spell and Extra Traits (assuming one of Lineage or Spellhunter is still open)
-If you can make room for it, Preferred Spell will let you swap other spells to various incarnations of Shocking Grasp on the fly, which can ease your prediction difficulties in figuring out when to use Elemental or Piercing spell.
Cloyes wrote: Cap. Darling wrote: Most devils dont elec resistance. Spell penetration will be good. sorry I miss spoke I meant Demon ( most have immunity to Elec.) not Devil Demons are always annoying when you plan to do energy damage. Elemental Spell to get one of the 3 types where they only have res 10 and Spell penetration is a good start.
Kestral287s build just above this post is good but also remember that there are other spells than shocking grasp and now where precise strike gives magus good damage without spells you have options.
Arachnofiend wrote:
A 15d4 Force Punch actually has the same max damage as a 10d6 Shocking Grasp so for raw DPR it isn't a very good spell. The push back is good, but not for a Magus.
Force Punch is going to give you slightly more damage on average: 10d6 averages 35 and ends up with 35-38 about 50% of the time while 15d4 averages 37.5 and hits for 35-40 50% of the time.
Of course, that's not actually going to be a noticeable difference in game play.
What is noticeable is that Force Punch is "Telekinetic Force" so you don't have to deal with energy resistance and immunity. Tons of things are resistant or outright immune to Electricity, and changing energy types is costly.
Cloyes wrote: CraziFuzzy wrote: My soul forger has done more effective net damage by maximizing the entire party's gear during downtime than he could even think to dish out directly - and he was still able to dish out a LOT of direct damage... Me too as I took craft Wondrous item at 3rd to make stuff for the party, BUT a couple of things:
1) being Ye Old Magic shop for the party is not as fun a role, and I could see where some player would then "expect" you to craft for them rather than work on your own buffs ( note NONE of mine do but I could see it happening)
2) if you are playing in a campaign such as mine "downtime" doesn't happen or we have to role play it, yes there is the alternate rules using camp time, lunches etc. but this is very slow and at upper levels this is even more noticeable, a headband of mental superiority +4 takes a full month even crafting at double speed with out the alternate downtime penalties!
also this no different than for a "full caster" in fact they are even better at it as they get higher level spells than you The best campaigns have lots of downtime. It puts adventuring into perspective. I've never liked the common thread of a character progressing from level 1 at age 16, to level 12 at age 18. Seems a little ridiculous, but that's what happens with full-time adventuring.
The Soul Forger's forte is not in wondrous items, but arms and armor, where his crafting speed is quite amazing. and also where more limited spell access is of no concern. By the time I got to 5th level, and picked up Craft Magic Arms and Armor, I had a +24 on Craft (weapons), +20 on Craft (armor), and +16 on Craft (bows). Ran a smithy in town when not adventuring that developed a great renown for high quality weapons. The smithy itself ended up being a very effective plot device as well. Any arms and armor made for the party cost the party member 75% of full price. That granted me 25% of the price of the items for myself, which came out to 500gp/day spent crafting for the party (A soul forger 7 crafts arms and armor at 2000gp/day, before rushed jobs or cooperative crafting). They still get customized items less than market price, and i get decent compensation for the heavy cost of that crafting ability (fewer spells due to soul forger, feats and skill ranks, etc).
Rycaut wrote: As a DM if I had multiple magus' to build for a long term campaign I would explore using a variety of build types to make each one feel different This is how I'd go about it. You can also have more interesting or more difficult encounters by changing the environment. A fight in an open field is going to feel very different to a fight on a fraying rope bridge over a volcano.
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