Cloyes's page

Cloyes wrote:

with 3-4 levels of eldritch archer, 3-4 levels of Zen monk then prestige of arcane archer you have 1-2 off full BAB, d10 HD , possibility of mixing ki and arcana pools, a ton of bow specific feats which I am pretty much sure beat fighter as some don't require prereqs, and all of this while retaining most (more than half at least) of your spell casting progression

Sorry, I still don't see what you are trying to do here with the Frankenstein build.

At 11th level, you are putting out 5d6 snowballs + 2d8 arrows + static damage modifiers. You cannot flurry and snowball, so I am guessing you want to mix and match spellstrike and flurry during combat. You need to hit 5th Magus in order to get specials on your bow.

Whereas an 11th level Eldritch Archer is throwing out 10d6 snowballs + 6d6 arrows (haste) + static modifiers AND +3 weapon enchants. I'm not familiar enough with Zen Archer Monk to comment precisely, but I'm sure at 11th level that straight class is going to do more damage than a Magus/Monk multiclass.

to answer you, this Frankenstein build has 9d6 snowballs plus 9/9/9/7/2 spell combat/haste enhanced (+1) elemental (1d6) arrows per round with no arcana investment but for free! also 3 levels of Zen Archer nets you point blank master, weapon focus bow, perfect strike, plus 2 bonus feats from:Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot with NO PREREQs in addition to your normal feats at this level. Arcane Archer also adds imbue arrow and Seeker arrow look these up because they can be cool. so if we are lacking any in damage output we are more than making up in versatility and durability

Torbyne wrote:

Falxu wrote:

I don't know for sure, but the language seems to indicate no. The same language is found under the Myrmidarch archtype as well.

You could probably convince your GM to make it work, but they way I'm seeing the Rule as Written is that anything left over is wasted (gone).

This makes some sort of sense as melee touch spells are more dangerous to utilize and thus tend to be more powerful than ranged spells.

Now... if you use Reach Metamagic, but do not spellstrike with it... I would assume you can freely range touch attack up to your BAB - and more? Does Rapid Shot work with ranged touch attack spells?

So hey, lets get into the ambiguity of the English language! I'll start. :P *ahem*

"if the spell allows multiple attacks" so, i will parse this as meaning a spell that allows multiple simultaneous attacks from a single casting. As opposed to the charge/level spells which allow a single attack as part of the casting and then leave you with additional rider effects you can discharge as part of other, non spell casting, attacks not granted by the original spell. Granted that is an interpretation that, while i believe is valid, is specifically worded to allow frostbite and chill touch to eventually be useful. It also makes Rapid Shot and Manyshot worthwhile to dump out extra hits on a full attacks on rounds after the casting.

Basically, the charge per level spells dont allow multiple attacks, they just augment your regular attacks after you cast them.

Maybe?

Unfortunately, the specific rules of the ability would override the general rules of the spell. If you use the ability, it works the way the ability states, you lose the rest of the effect that you might have normally gotten.

Think of it as a cost to it ignoring the typical spell slot increase, feat investment and having an effectively unlimited way to increase and toss spells at...

could you please state your reasoning for this other than your personal opinion? Skylancer4 has made a case for the fact that this not multiple attacks but is similar to a duration effect like gravity bow or flame arrow.

with 3-4 levels of eldritch archer, 3-4 levels of Zen monk then prestige of arcane archer you have 1-2 off full BAB, d10 HD , possibility of mixing ki and arcana pools, a ton of bow specific feats which I am pretty much sure beat fighter as some don't require prereqs, and all of this while retaining most (more than half at least) of your spell casting progression

what about multi-classing into Zen Archer for 3+ levels.
this would be a int/wis build but allow for flurry options, plus a ton of bonus bow feats. if you are allowed to use the new unchained monk Zen Archer option it would even be better with full BAB and d10 HD.

Cloyes wrote:

not sure about a 2.0 upgrade but what would be nice especially for something like the pathfinder society "rules Lawyers" would be an online Builder and/or Compendium like 4E has. that way you don't have to be as aggressive on the errata stuff, just say if the builder doesn't support it, you cant do it. I played 4e it was ok but hated the fact it felt like a video game not the ad&d I played as a kid, I love pathfinder but do find that it is a bit unbalanced examples: thieves and monks suck in general, Druids, Clerics, and Wizards rock then there is the Summoner. (and please don't reply with your awesome Rogue or Monk Builds I know there are exceptions) the big thing for me is not so much the balance issue as the ease of play, I am a 45yr old male that has a family and career to manage as well as my game addiction, reading and rereading 20 odd reference materials is just out of the picture. if there are Paizo people out there listening the one thing I do have more of is disposable income ( I am still paying for my DND online account and I haven't played 4e in a year and a half) so I think that something like that system could maintain revenues, allow for easy fixes, and help avoid the out of control "rules lawyering" that turns me away from wanting to even try and play in a PF society group.

Assuming the online Builder doesn't have its own bugs in it. Plus a lot of the rules lawyering is about what happens when you have or use particular combinations of abilities, not directly over whether you can build that way or not.

an online builder could potentially solve for part of that problem as well as, for example the 4e power cards listed the bonuses based on items equipped, abilities, traits etc. but you are right as pathfinder is a much more complicated game so the combinations could get infinitely more complex

not sure about a 2.0 upgrade but what would be nice especially for something like the pathfinder society "rules Lawyers" would be an online Builder and/or Compendium like 4E has. that way you don't have to be as aggressive on the errata stuff, just say if the builder doesn't support it, you cant do it. I played 4e it was ok but hated the fact it felt like a video game not the ad&d I played as a kid, I love pathfinder but do find that it is a bit unbalanced examples: thieves and monks suck in general, Druids, Clerics, and Wizards rock then there is the Summoner. (and please don't reply with your awesome Rogue or Monk Builds I know there are exceptions) the big thing for me is not so much the balance issue as the ease of play, I am a 45yr old male that has a family and career to manage as well as my game addiction, reading and rereading 20 odd reference materials is just out of the picture. if there are Paizo people out there listening the one thing I do have more of is disposable income ( I am still paying for my DND online account and I haven't played 4e in a year and a half) so I think that something like that system could maintain revenues, allow for easy fixes, and help avoid the out of control "rules lawyering" that turns me away from wanting to even try and play in a PF society group.

My PFS magus has a lesser empower metamagic helmet, the Acrimony Veil, from "In Wrath's Shadow", works on evocation spells only, and it does Rage once per day.

sounds great but it also sounds like a unique campaign magical item I doubt my GM will allow me to craft

My soul forger has done more effective net damage by maximizing the entire party's gear during downtime than he could even think to dish out directly - and he was still able to dish out a LOT of direct damage...

Me too as I took craft Wondrous item at 3rd to make stuff for the party, BUT a couple of things:

also this no different than for a "full caster" in fact they are even better at it as they get higher level spells than you

Cloyes wrote:

Besides the Elemental and Piercing feats what answers do you bring? they may not be hard to find but for a newb like me there is a great amount of material to go through, and it has become a problem in the Devil-centric adventure that I am currently in.

SR:

Spell Penetration & Greater are staples of course. A Grasp-centric Magus at the high levels is going to take Spell Perfection too, which doubles Penetration & Greater to basically ignore SR.

Elves make good Magi and get another +2, though they're batting for third as optimal Magus races go.

Tieflings can pick up the Grasping Tail feat to hold a metamagic rod (cross-check it with your GM on the meaning of the word "manipulate", but it's accepted in my little corner of the world at least), and thus can use a Lesser Rod of Piercing-- a mere 3000 gp for +5 vs. SR for three spells per day.

And then we have caster level increases. The Orange Prism Ioun Stone is a simple-but-useful +1. The Otherworldly Kimono is an extremely effective item that's a staple of casters everywhere. Spell Specialization can actually be a decent choice, though emphasis "decent"-- it does useful things, but look to the Penetrations first.

Resistances:
Elemental Spell. If you're a Tiefling with Grasping Tail and the Rods thing, a Lesser Elemental Rod is 3000 gp. You can afford to carry three, one keyed to each non-electric element, easily enough. Otherwise you can just take the feat-- I believe Electric + Acid gives the broadest range of coverage.

And, finally... frankly even if you're a Grasp-centric Magus, you still have a book full of other spells. If you really can't break his Immunity to Electricity, start throwing out spells like Enervation or Haste. If you can't break his SR, Haste still works fine, or you can bring in Cloudkill.

Thank you! you also bring up a good point I was looking into Meta rods as they seem like they are perfect for the Magus but Tieflings and non-core races are not an option ( with the one time exception of Drow which mine is) so are their work arounds to make them more practical with spell strike, I was hoping to see if I could research some thing like the "weapon wand" spell but doubt my GM would go for it

Most devils dont elec resistance. Spell penetration will be good.

sorry I miss spoke I meant Demon ( most have immunity to Elec.) not Devil

while I might agree on wizard and sorcerer, the cleric and Druid are the same BAB progression get to wear better armor and are full casters. in addition the Cleric is every parties "must protect" as he is the source of healing and the Druid by 4th level has a beast companion and animal shape making him the equal of most Melee characters plus a FULL CASTER! The great part about the wizard is if at first you don't get the spells right then you can try, try again. I think I can "tough it out" for 3-4 levels

Besides the Elemental and Piercing feats what answers do you bring? they may not be hard to find but for a newb like me there is a great amount of material to go through, and it has become a problem in the Devil-centric adventure that I am currently in.

in looking at avg DPR calculations for the Magus with spellstrike I wonder is everyone is everyone taking into account SR and immunities on shocking grasp? as from game play I have found that in higher level encounters this is not that uncommon.

this thread is more addressed to the Paizo design staff, it seems like according to the guides and forums that the Magus arcana "close range" is a bottom choice Arcana and no one in their right mind would take it.
my suggestion is to edit it to include all close ranged spells as this would open it up to the "snow ball" spell which would also fix another issue with the class itself. that being, he is a glass cannon who miss fires a lot! in mid to higher level campaigns I have found that SR can pretty effectively shut down the Magus's ability to shine. it sucks critting with a shocking grasp only to have the BBBG make his SR save (which is pretty often) and negate 90% of your damage. I know that there may be options out there to work the Magus if you specialize ( ie maneuver magus) or min/Max ing but why does that have to be? it is not the case with Druids, Clerics, or Wizards. anyhow just thought I would throw this up and see what comes. I have not checked to see if they are potential "abuses" of this change so if there are I can see why not, but if not this one little change could help the class at least overcome one of the bigger mid to upper tier hurdles. I look forward to your and the forums thoughts on this.

Cloyes wrote:

I don't know if it has been brought up before but what about the "Close Range" arcana coupled with the spell "snow ball" instead of the typical shocking grasp? the advantage is Snow Ball has no spell resistance unlike shocking grasp. it can be really annoying critting on a shocking grasp only to have them make their SR save and negate all the spell damage. plus it is a little more versatile as there are times you don't want to spell strike and be right next to the Big Bad Boss Guy. will this work? is it worth the Arcana investment?

Close range only works with 'ray' spells. Snowball is not a ray spell.

shoot missed that, too bad! maybe I will see they will house rule this one, as in my opinion the Magus needs some love, he seems to be great in concept, but in my play experience he is more of a glass cannon that miss fires a lot! then again I am not very good at the min/max thing, and others at my table are. then again if he dies I can always go Wizard, cleric or Druid as you don't seem to have to min/max for those classes to be able to keep up.

Casting another spell, such as dimension door, immediately ends any active touch spell.

how ever James Jacobs has said that chill touch (don't know if there are others)is the exception to the rule as you don't loose existing charges when another spell is cast

I don't know if it has been brought up before but what about the "Close Range" arcana coupled with the spell "snow ball" instead of the typical shocking grasp? the advantage is Snow Ball has no spell resistance unlike shocking grasp. it can be really annoying critting on a shocking grasp only to have them make their SR save and negate all the spell damage. plus it is a little more versatile as there are times you don't want to spell strike and be right next to the Big Bad Boss Guy. will this work? is it worth the Arcana investment?