A player wants to change his Assimar to undead, I could use some help

[Eigengrau]

So... this player in my group that I co-gm at, wants to become an undead native outsider (Assimar) and some kind of homebrew class his brother came up with... Going to have to axe some of that class I'm sure.

Anyway, just having the undead type changes a lot of things for him.
What effective level should he be at now, with just the Undead type? He originally was a 9th level pally, who now is evil of course but not an Antipaladin yet or if ever.

If he was to go with the Death Knight undead template, what would his level be at now?

The group is supposed to level up 2 levels anyway, but I'm not going to give him 2 character class levels on top of the undead type.

I need some help to make things fair for everyone but be within the rules as written/intended.

EDIT: also what HD does he use for class levels when he raises them by leveling? I assume he has 9d10 possibly now, but does he gain the rest with d8's when he levels?

[Claxon]

What I would suggest to you is that he is now a vampire, and follows the rules for vampire PC characters. Thus he is a vampire antipaladin. Vampire have weaknesses and drawbacks to balance out their powers.

I wouldn't allow a homebrew class without thoroughly checking out it's power. It's probably better to not allow it at all to keep things fair between all your players.

Also, you probably need to give something to your other players for this player becoming undead.

[Tarondor]

I'd tell him that the moment he becomes undead, he becomes an NPC under your control.

If you're determined to allow PC's to play undead, I strongly suggest you not let them use a homebrewed class.

[Eigengrau]

Problems we're having here is that I Co-GM with 3 others, 1 is his brother, and the other isn't entirely wanting him to have this homebrew at all. It's based off the WoW Death Knight class and just going by that alone I think it'll be overpowered. I really haven't seen it.

I think the Undead type itself on any class is pretty powerful.

I'll meet with them tonight or tomorrow night and look over the class and his previous character as well.

I'll have to discuss having some serious limitations & weaknesses put in place for him to just have the undead type. There's 2 people in the party who're good aligned anyway so just being evil is going to be conflicting.

Maybe an item that grants him these powers that has to be held in one hand on top of normal weaknesses that undead have. That's probably just to start off with. Personally I want to say no.

[Claxon]

Wait wait wait...
If this character is evil and wants to be undead and you have good party members I would just tell him it's over. There is no way this will end harmoniously. Or rather, a very small chance of it.

It's just not fair to the other players.

If the player wants the character to become undead, I would say that's fine. But he becomes an NPC that will show up as an antagonist for the party. Not a party member.

[Eigengrau]

We're meeting later to hash this out. I'm all about "Nope" for any undead with a homebrew class.

As it is I'm leaning on a compromise of if he wants to be undead then:
All hit dice from his 9 pally levels are now d8's, his BAB is now 3/4 and all hit points are rerolled. The rest of the party still gains their 2 advancement levels due to experience they've earned but this player will stay 9th level with No Class until he raises a level and then can pick one. So effectively a 9th level undead warrior with his previous feats/traits until he levels up.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

You might consider giving him the Half-Undead type.

It gives him the flavor of being undead, with some bonuses and drawbacks, but doesn't give him the whole suite of immunities or force him to rebuild his character.

[Cap. Darling]

He wants to be a death knigth. Without commenting on anybody the rule mecahnism, because i havent seen the suggestet class, i will have to say that it depends on the party, and the campaign. how will the other players and PCs look at a undead knigth hangaround? I suggest over playing the cursed existence and Down playing the power Drunk undead potential of a death knigth.
Some modifikation on the warpriest seems like a good place to look for a death knigth start. Pehaps with sligthly modificed blessings( pehaps looking at some of the iconic powers from the game). Let him heal himself with negative energy from his channeling.
I would most likely let him retrain as a undead bloodline bloodrager and say he came back from the dead a changed man.

[StDrake]

Undead immunities might seem powerful, but they get balanced out by the social stigma and loss of survivability at negatives. That said if by death knight you mean the graveknight..that quite makes up for the additional danger.

Undeath on its own isnt a huge deal, but id only allow a +2 or higher template for climate and only if it gets used for climate, not if the player just seeks more power.

Alignment differences on the good/evil axis might get nasty if you're not sure if you can trust your player not to go a+%!%&%-evil. You might try out an alternative of light/dark instead of good/evil to get somewhere inbetween. Gives the pretext for dark ways, but doesnt flat out suggest selfishness

[Physically Unfeasible]

If he's willing to go Anti-Paladin, and the party is going to level 10, might I point out there is an archetype from ultimate combat which is literally all about becoming more and more undead.
By 11th level, you've got a nice suite of the effects.
Alternately; throw a template on. Level wise, little screwy but I'd lean towards saying the CR added is the amount of levels it counts for (since an NPC with PC class levels at PC wealth is meant to have CR=Level supposedly). May get a lump of abilities with a lot of them but there's a ton of downsides too anyway - there's always going to be being behind on class levels (therefore HD, BAB, Saves), let alone many undead have issues.

.

RP-wise, I'd probably insist on asking him what motive he has (assuming standard setting ideas for undead) to not just kill the party for being living things.
Same for any evil character really. Heck, NE can* work in a party if the player is going to stick to a motive that keeps them tame.

*The word can is not the word will.

[Eigengrau]

Physically Unfeasible wrote:

If he's willing to go Anti-Paladin, and the party is going to level 10, might I point out there is an archetype from ultimate combat which is literally all about becoming more and more undead.

By 11th level, you've got a nice suite of the effects.
Alternately; throw a template on. Level wise, little screwy but I'd lean towards saying the CR added is the amount of levels it counts for (since an NPC with PC class levels at PC wealth is meant to have CR=Level supposedly). May get a lump of abilities with a lot of them but there's a ton of downsides too anyway - there's always going to be being behind on class levels (therefore HD, BAB, Saves), let alone many undead have issues.

.

RP-wise, I'd probably insist on asking him what motive he has (assuming standard setting ideas for undead) to not just kill the party for being living things.
Same for any evil character really. Heck, NE can* work in a party if the player is going to stick to a motive that keeps them tame.

*The word can is not the word will.

What template is this called from UC?

[blackbloodtroll]

Supposing this character somehow doesn't become a NPC, is the player willing to deal with the possibility of having the other players try to kill him?

I mean, if you have good, or even neutral PCs, that want to slay this evil undead creature, but the only defense is "it's a PC", well that's kind of a dick move.

If you were playing an evil game, like Way of the Wicked, it would work.

This, just seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

[Rogar Stonebow]

The problem I see immediately is that there THREE DMs. One of them being the brother who designed this homebrew class. I really do not see this ending well. Rarely do Good Undead and Good parties work out well. I can not see how a EVIL undead and a Good party would work out well. Homebrew classes need to be tested and tested to be sure that it is balanced! Doing so with a template character is impossible to judge its balance issues. You can not allow both at the same time.

There is a formula some where that allows the CR to be recovered to a point depending on the levels obtained. Such as at low levels a CR 2 should definitely be 2 levels higher. But around level 10 or so it should only be 1 level higher. I can't remember where I saw the exact formula, but it is out there.

[Eigengrau]

Problem has resolved itself. I left them alone for 45mins after explaining how unbalanced the class was & how being undead was overpowered as well. I came back and the player decided on staying Assimar but becoming a Dragon Rider class.

Thanks for everyones help so far though.

[rorek55]

Eigengrau wrote:

Physically Unfeasible wrote:

If he's willing to go Anti-Paladin, and the party is going to level 10, might I point out there is an archetype from ultimate combat which is literally all about becoming more and more undead.

By 11th level, you've got a nice suite of the effects.
Alternately; throw a template on. Level wise, little screwy but I'd lean towards saying the CR added is the amount of levels it counts for (since an NPC with PC class levels at PC wealth is meant to have CR=Level supposedly). May get a lump of abilities with a lot of them but there's a ton of downsides too anyway - there's always going to be being behind on class levels (therefore HD, BAB, Saves), let alone many undead have issues.

.

RP-wise, I'd probably insist on asking him what motive he has (assuming standard setting ideas for undead) to not just kill the party for being living things.
Same for any evil character really. Heck, NE can* work in a party if the player is going to stick to a motive that keeps them tame.

*The word can is not the word will.

What template is this called from UC?

He means this archetype. I would highly recommend you suggest it.

personally I find the base anti-paladin class still stronger, but thats fine if he wants the flavor.