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I'm messing around with a few rogue builds and came up with a couple that seem "interesting."
Rules: PFS 20pt buy.
Stats: 12str, 18dex,14con,8int,14wis,10cha
Cavalier Order: Order of the Cockatrice
1) Daring Champion 1: Bab +1 | Enforcer (lvl 1), Bludgeoner (Human), Weapon Finesse (Cavalier)
2) Daring Champion 2: Bab +2 | Dazzling Display (Cavalier), +2atk vs demoralized (Cavalier)
3) Thug 1: Bab +2 | Sap Adept (lvl 3), [1d6 SA]
4) Thug 2: Bab +3 | Befuddling Strike (Rogue), +1 Dex
5) Thug 3: Bab +4 | Two-Weapon Fighting (lvl 5), [2d6 SA]
6) Thug 4: Bab +5 | Offensive Defense (Rogue),
7) Thug 5: Bab +5 | Sap Master (lvl 7), [3d6 SA]
8) Thug 6: Bab +6/+1 | Combat Trick: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Rogue), +1 Dex
9) Thug 7: Bab +7/+2 | Iron Will (lvl 9), [4d6 SA]
10) Thug 8: Bab +8/+3 | Weapon Training: Iron Brush (Rogue)
11) Thug 9: Bab +8/+3 | Shatter Defenses (lvl 11), [5d6 SA]
Stats: 12str, 18dex,14con,8int,14wis,10cha
1) Pistolero 1: Bab +1 | Point-Blank Shot (lvl 1), Two-Weapon Fighting (Human)
2) Fighter 1: Bab +2 | Precise Shot (fighter)
3) Fighter 2: Bab +3 | Dodge (lvl 3), Rapid Reload (fighter)
4) Scout 1: Bab +3 | [1d6 SA], +1 Dex
5) Scout 2: Bab +4 | Mobility (lvl 5), Weapon Finesse (Rogue)
6) Scout 3: Bab +5 | [2d6 SA]
7) Scout 4: Bab +6/+1 | Deft Shootist Deed (lvl 7), Combat Trick: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Rogue)
8) Scout 5: Bab +6/+1 | [3d6 SA], +1 Dex
9) Scout 6: Bab +7/+2 | Extra Talent: Befuddling Strike (lvl 9), Offensive Defense (Rogue)
10) Scout 7: Bab +8/+3 | [4d6 SA]
11) Scout 8: Bab +9/+4 | Iron Will (lvl 11), Befuddling Strike (Rogue)
Note: TWF Pistols till 5th level, then able to fight in melee when necessary. At 7th level either sword & pistol to qualify for flanking and sneak attack or if you have a natural attack can TWF pistols in melee while flanking.
The object here is to flank and use pistols to land ITWF attacks for sneak damage. You also have the option of moving 10ft and getting 1 sneak attack with pistol in 30ft or less range, thanks to Scout.
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Just some build ideas I drafted up. Let me know what ya think. ;)
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What weapon is the Cavalier one supposed to use? From the stat spread I presume you want to access the Champion's weapon finesse, but off-hand I can't name any weapons that efficiently qualify for it, TWF, and Sap Adept.
Expect table variation on getting flanking sneak attacks off pistols. We've had a long discussion on that one already.
Build#1 - It's a weird setup but I'd be using an Iron Brush martial weapon, misusing (aka improvised weapon) it as a bludgeoning weapon. Taking Rough and Ready & Surprise Weapon traits to remove the Improvised penalty and to give a +atk bonus at least for the early levels while TWF. Told ya it was weird lol, but it's strictly for my character concept which is why I left it out in the build description above.
Build#2 - By RAW you are in flanking position and threatening your opponent with a dagger, sword, etc and you shoot someone with a pistol that grants sneak attack. Maybe table variation at homegames but at PFS it's legal.
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You cannot have both of those traits, they both give trait bonuses and don't stack.
I think you misunderstood. One of the traits removes the Improvised Weapon Penalty and gives a +1 trait bonus to attack. The other trait gives a +2 trait bonus to attack. Looking at my previous comments I didn't state a +3 trait bonus to attack as they don't stack. But it's definitely worth having both as 1 removes the penalty and the other gives an extra +1atk bonus, which is essentially a free Weapon Focus. That's why I'm taking both of them.
Build#2 - By RAW you are in flanking position and threatening your opponent with a dagger, sword, etc and you shoot someone with a pistol that grants sneak attack. Maybe table variation at homegames but at PFS it's legal.
That's really savvy. I like it!
Imo the sap master is a little eh - I like the touch of daring champion but I don't think it adds enough to make the plain thug TWF worth it - they're still going to struggle to hit; while their intimidate should be ok, it's not going to be spectacular, and it isn't clear the character has too much going on other than these shticks, though maybe I'm missing something.
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Build#2 - By RAW you are in flanking position and threatening your opponent with a dagger, sword, etc and you shoot someone with a pistol that grants sneak attack. Maybe table variation at homegames but at PFS it's legal.That's really savvy. I like it!
Imo the sap master is a little eh - I like the touch of daring champion but I don't think it adds enough to make the plain thug TWF worth it - they're still going to struggle to hit; while their intimidate should be ok, it's not going to be spectacular, and it isn't clear the character has too much going on other than these shticks, though maybe I'm missing something.
Well the benefit beyond the free Weapon Finesse, 2 levels a full BAB, Armor Proficiencies, Martial Weapon Proficiency, d10 HD, and a Challenge & Mount is that you get the +2atk vs anyone that is demoralized with the Order of the Cockatrice. Which that effectively negates the TWF penalty on a mostly 3/4 BAB multiclass. Depends if the above is more useful than 2 levels of Rogue.
Mainly it's just a build to demoralize, increase demoralize to worse conditions. You can cause the enemy to be sickened as a Thug, you also can boost your AC with Offensive Defense & Befuddling Strike (in addition to lowering their Attack with Shaken and Sickened). The main damage hinges on doing Sneak Attack damage to deal 10d6 Sneak Attack dmg + small change. But if you're playing a Rogue, you're most likely playing for Sneak Attack (You can get Trapfinding with other classes).
Build#2 - By RAW you are in flanking position and threatening your opponent with a dagger, sword, etc and you shoot someone with a pistol that grants sneak attack. Maybe table variation at homegames but at PFS it's legal.
Really? The actual rules on flanking talk about bonuses to melee attack rolls. I.e. "When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character ir creature on its opposite border or opposite corner."
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Its still a rogue. 3. And im being generous.
It looks like you took befuddeling strike twice in build number 2
You're absolutely right, I did take it twice. Good catch, I'll remove that from my Word Doc build I have saved (Can't edit the original post anymore or I would.)
They are indeed still Rogues. But in light of that, what do you think of them compared to general Rogues? Is #1 pretty effective with the Thug demoralizing route and the Offensive Defense / Sap Master combo? Is #2 genius with the setup for a Rogue to hit touch AC to deal Sneak Attack damage? I'm thinking a Half-Orc with a Bite attack would work even better, as the 4 attacks from BAB6+ and ITWF would all be touch attacks and the 5th attack (which threatens in melee) would be a regular bite attack. Should be a way for a Rogue to reliably hit enemies to get SA. I wonder if trying to squeeze Sap Master in there would work with Merciful Pistols?
I mean, yeah Rogues sucks. But we're having fun here and I'm just wondering how these builds fair compared to other Rogues.
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Build#2 - By RAW you are in flanking position and threatening your opponent with a dagger, sword, etc and you shoot someone with a pistol that grants sneak attack. Maybe table variation at homegames but at PFS it's legal.Really? The actual rules on flanking talk about bonuses to melee attack rolls. I.e. "When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character ir creature on its opposite border or opposite corner."
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
So yeah, when flanking you're only going to get the +2atk flanking bonus to melee but you qualify for Sneak Attack with ranged because you are flanking with either a melee weapon in 1 hand or (example:) a bite attack.
EDIT: But honestly, who cares about a +2atk bonus when you're trying to hit Touch AC. I'd rather try hitting Touch AC over trying to hit regular AC with a +2 bonus. :D
There are long arguments about how flanking does not apply to ranged weapons. I suggest you clarify with whomever your VC is about that working, because the majority opinion in the rules forum is that it does not work.
So when you say it is legal in PFS...I think you may be misunderstanding.
Well... As far as I can tell: in this particular case he's flanking with a melee weapon, and it explicitly says that when a rogue is flanking they get sneak attack. Since you normally CAN'T flank with a ranged weapon, you normally can't get sneak attack; but here you're using melee capabilities to do so.
By the by, for the Pistolero: Adopted trait > Half-Orc or Orc > Tusked trait. There, you are now a human with a bite attack. You were probably raised by orcs or cannibals or something.
Doesn't work. You only flank with the weapon that threatens. If you don't make the attack with that weapon it does not recieve the benefit.
Ranged flanking has been discussed in probably over a dozen a threads, including that scenario. None of them work.
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Yeah, looks like my VC is in favor of it not counting also, no problem. Nothing a little Deft Shootist Deed and Snap Shot can't fix though. Maybe I'll post my updated pistol rogue build later if people are interested.
But honestly I'm liking Build#1 more. Anything got some suggestions/advise to improve it or etc?
To clarify, if you mean that Snap Shot can allow you to flank, it still cannot. It allows you to threaten. To take AoO, and provide flanking to others. But you yourself will not benefit from flanking with a pistol.
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Build#1 - It's a weird setup but I'd be using an Iron Brush martial weapon, misusing (aka improvised weapon) it as a bludgeoning weapon. Taking Rough and Ready & Surprise Weapon traits to remove the Improvised penalty and to give a +atk bonus at least for the early levels while TWF. Told ya it was weird lol, but it's strictly for my character concept which is why I left it out in the build description above.If you're using it as an improvised weapon, you lose Champion's Finesse for it-- real weapons used as improvised weapons lose the qualities of whatever weapon they are in favor of the improvised profile. For this combination to work you need a B and P weapon, or a B and S weapon with Slashing Grace. You could try getting away with a B or P but I'd expect table variation there too.
Easiest method would be to dual-wield Morningstars (probably with use of Effortless Lace... except that's not allowed at PFS).
Well you're referring my specific setup. For others using this build they can use morningstars or whatever but for me the Iron Brushes are kind of mandatory, which is what you're pointing out. So if anything, I'll have to switch things around to get Weapon Finesse instead of Champion's Finesse.
I mentioned that my local VC also didn't agree with me...so that was already covered...and I mentioned that I made adjustments that corrected that issue. Only issue I can see now is reloading while dual wielding and there's been an errata on weapon cords...so I'm personally putting that build on hold.