Power Attack is one of those feats which I've read is a statistical must-have for melee builds but which I'm always hesitant to make use of since the penalty to hit makes me nervous. How do you properly gauge when to use it? People will say it depends largely on the AC of your target but, for a combat that lasts only 3-4 rounds, spending a round or two trying to determine the exact AC and then running some numbers to figure out whether you've reached a viable Power Attacking opportunity seems too time consuming to be worthwhile. Can someone to whom Power Attacking is second nature help me figure out how I should go about getting the most out of this feat?
For reference, I'm playing a 5th level Synthesist who is large, with 20 Str, and with four claw attacks; dealing approximately 1d8+5 per hit.
my advice is stack up attack bonus (and damage too).
take a fighter for exmaple.
at level 5 with 20 str ,+1 weapon.+2 belt of str. weapon focus. weapon specilization, weapon traing class ability. and power attack all set for a greatsowrd he will have:
(bab)+5 (str) +6 (weapon enhancment)+1(w.focus)+1(weapon training)+1 = +14 to attack.without power attack and deal 2d6 +9(str +50%) +1(weapon) +1(weapon traiing) +2 (weapon spec) =2d6+13.
now if he takes on the power attack he will get +12 to hit(still very good for levle 5 ac) and the damage will bump by 6 points to 2d6 +19
have a freindly bard give him +1 to attakc and damage? more. have a ferndly mage enlarge him. even more(to damage attack would kinda stay the same). cleric cast bless\preyer? flanking for +2? he used overrun beofre and now the target is prone- that is +4 more. my fighter so far alsmot never miss with power attack. not unles he rolls a number so low that even without it it would have been a miss.
now you as a snithiest will have less of a bab but i think you should have some spells to boost urself up with. migth even have that true stirke spell if im not mistaken. look for any bonus you can get and use it. the mroe you have the less you would miss.
For the synthesist you've described power attack will be a good idea 9 times in 10. Make power attack your default and maybe consider turning it off if you're fighting something unusually difficult to hit; will-o-wisps maybe.
Note that you can't take the large evolution until 8th level though.
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Here is how I generally do it.
Power Attack. If a die roll in the first round is 14+ and misses then I stop, no question. If I miss on a highest roll of 10-13 I will try again to narrow down.
I am also playing a 5th level synthesist, 4 claws, 20 str.
+10 1d6+6+1d6 acid. I even took it easy and don't have PA yet, but I Bull Str as much as I can. I also have an Amulet of Might Fist +1.
Firstly - that attack penalty is more of an issue for the medium/low base attack classes - bards, magus, etc. Just look at it like this; if you're a high BAB class, like a fighter or barb, the penalty will roughly bring your attack score down to the next lowest tier.
fighter at level 8 (no other bonuses/penalties) BAB 8/3. With power attack, its 5/0, but +6 damage.
Rogue at level 8: BAB 6/1. +0 damage.
Comparable, yes? it's going to be around that same number, all the way up to level 20. However...
Fighter level 20: BAB 20/15/10/5. Power attack +12 damage, 14/9/4/-1.
Rogue: 15/10/5.
So basically you're hitting with almost as much accuracy (no other bonuses considered) but you're hitting much much harder.
Now the fighter takes a two handed weapon, the two hand fighter archetype, and focuses mainly on buffing up that STR - not only is he getting the weapon group/attack and damage bonuses for weapon training and all that, but he's doing double damage with two handed attacks.
Level 8, with 20 str. (16 natural, +2 from advancement, +2 from a belt/item)
-Weapon training: +2 hit/dmg with 2 hand weapons.
-Weapon focus, greater weapon focus, power attack, weapon specialization(greataxe).
-greataxe +2. (basic level 8-ish weapon, on the average of what you might own)
You're rockin a 8/3 BAB, +5 from str, +4 from feats and class stuff, +2 from the axe itself. Total +19 / +14. You do d12+16 damage (10 from str, 4 from specialization and training, 2 from the weapon.)
-- Average: 22.5 damage a pop. (the x2 damage from str instead of the normal x1.5 for twohanded attacks, - two hand fighter's Backswing).
Now add in power attack,(+50% dmg on two handed weapons) = 16/11 attack, for d12 +25 damage. Average damage 31.5 a hit.
Up against anyone with an AC of less than 20, you're absolutely brutal, especially when going against groups of weaker critters that you can one-shot with this damage, and with feats like cleave and cleaving finish, or Dreadful carnage. You kill someone, and it just gets worse... (this of course doesn't even consider a bull strength potion or party buffs)
I have seen this in action against very large groups of enemies: Fighter with a Earthbreaker over his shoulder gets stopped by the town guards, ("sir, you can't walk around with that weapon unsheathed, we'll have to confiscate-" "WHAT?! NOBODY TOUCHES WANDA!!!!" and he freaks out - next thing you know, whistles and bells going off, and he's just standing in the street whacking away - and these guards are level 3-4 with 24-32 hp, while he's level 9 (dealing 30-40 damage a pop on average, using greatcleave to kill anyone else within range at his highest attack). He's crushing them by the dozens. They stop coming, and go get a wizard. Wizard shows up, casts charm, the warrior gets pwned. At least until the spell wore off and his friends broke him out of the clink the next day.... They see the wizard later, the warrior wins initiative - He kills the level 11 wizard with a power attack charge/ and a free pop from Greater Overrun. Needless to say, builds like this introduce the bull to your china shop of a storyline if you don't balance it out with clever opposition, but in a vibrant setting, there are all kinds of predators.
Just remember two things: first, power attack penalties are easy to negate with more people in the party. Someone sings an inspiration, someone casts a spell, and poof. Powerattack brutality.
Second, its a lot less impressive when you don't have the BAB and attack bonuses from buffs.
Your synthesist build is going to focus on attack spam -- those secondary attacks are all going to be at 50% strength, and 50% of the normal power-attack bonuses, but you'll still make up for it through sheer numbers... mostly. Unless you can make up for the eidolon's further BAB reduction, and your multiattack penalty, it's almost not worth the investment. Take extra evolutions instead, and work toward some elemental damage in your build. You'd do +1, (+2 damage on your primary) per hit with power attack at a -1 penalty for each attack, so you miss half of em.... or do d6 damage on one limb (your primary, with the best attack bonus)? Extra evolutions wins. When you have a way to boost the attack scores across the board (STR bonuses through gear, rage spell, flat bonuses from allies bardsong, whatever it is) then consider powerattack. And power attack + elemental damage, even more so.
Really, it only shines with a high base or a ridiculously buffed main stat (str, or dex with finesse). But if you pull it off, more power to you. It certainly possible,... unless you are a melee wizard. Put the staff away, please.
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I always remember a simple rule for Power Attack
Always Be Power Attacking
No seriously, in pretty much all cases for full BAB characters you should always be power attacking. Now, I know you said you're playing a synthesist but fortunately you're using natural weapons. So while you're to hit isn't as strong you have four natural attacks at the same to hit (instead of decreasing iteratives) and 3/4 BAB plus high strength.
You should start with Power Attacking pretty much always, and unless you find that you have trouble hitting (on decent rolls) you should continue using it.
Note that you can't take the large evolution until 8th level though.
Large sized is gained from enlarge person. At 8th level I'll be huge.
I am also playing a 5th level synthesist, 4 claws, 20 str.
I'd be curious to see more of your build at present.
Your synthesist build is going to focus on attack spam -- those secondary attacks are all going to be at 50% strength, and 50% of the normal power-attack bonuses, but you'll still make up for it through sheer numbers... mostly.
Claw attacks are all primary. For the sake of keeping it primary and for ease of boosting with spells and feats, I'm going to keep focusing on claws; so no secondary attacks ever.
Always Be Power Attacking
That seems to be the take-away from this. Is there a simple rule of thumb for when it's best to stop power attacking; say like when I'm missing on attack rolls equal to my full attack bonus +5 or +10?
Looking at comparable damage boosting feats, I'm just wondering if the added damage/lower to-hit of Power Attack (+4 dam. x 4 = 16; -2 to hit) outpaces the damage of say Arcane Strike (+2 dam. x 4 attacks = 8) or Improved Natural Attack (increase 1d8 die to 2d6 x 4 = 10) for this character.
Do the math yourself.
Figure your % chance to hit PA/non-PA say, AC 20.
Figure your average damage PA/non-PA.
Multiply one by the other.
Now, reduce the chance to hit by 5%.
If your non-PA damage is higher then your PA damage, you know where the breakpoint is.
Note that gaining sizes can have an interesting effect here if you are using iteratives, because the size increase makes the Power Attack less important to overall damage.
Now, you're using claws instead of iteratives, but for the future.
So, give us some numbers, and the break point should explain itself.
-2/+4 will ALWAYS be worse then 0/+2.5 (INA), and will be about the same as 0/+2 (but burn the swift action). PA keeps going up and up and up, however, and will eventually be more important then either.
They are all decent ways of adding damage to the stack.
==Aelryinth
I always remember a simple rule for Power Attack
Always Be Power Attacking
No seriously, in pretty much all cases for full BAB characters you should always be power attacking. Now, I know you said you're playing a synthesist but fortunately you're using natural weapons. So while you're to hit isn't as strong you have four natural attacks at the same to hit (instead of decreasing iteratives) and 3/4 BAB plus high strength.
You should start with Power Attacking pretty much always, and unless you find that you have trouble hitting (on decent rolls) you should continue using it.
I donno, level 5 eidolon's just barely got the 4 bab... add in +5 str, he's a +9basic, +7/+7/+7/+7 because multiattack claws? They count as primary, so full str damage, that's not bad. But -2 to hit is +5/+5/+5/+5. Even against a AC 15 enemy that's a 50% chance at best to hit... Well, let's face it, it's not much worse of a chance to hit than 60% per attack without power attack. d8+7 per attack, 4 times, is 2 hits on average at d8+7. That's right on par with say, a dual wield str-based slayer/ranger guide of the same level, using dual wield shortswords.
Guide, *with* ranger focus, at level 5 - +4/+4 hit damage, + 16 str, weapon focus, power attack. mw shortwords:
attack: +10/+10, damage: d6+9 / d6+6 offhand = ~12/10 per hit
Vs ac 15: 75% hit chance per attack.
your eidolon, vs ac 15:
attack: +5, power attack (x 4 swings) d8+7 averaging 11.5 per hit.
Vs ac 15 = 50% chance to hit.
If you're up against larger/lower ac enemies, synthesist shines, against higher ac, ranger shines.
Up to you. You'll always get more evolutions later to boost your damage other ways. If you can drink some elixirs that boost those attack bonuses up, do it.
With Natural Attacks you should not have trouble hitting. I recently played a (very reasonably built) Synthesist from 5-12 for a campaign.
Your Eidolon will be attacking essentially at mid BAB except you'll be doing it with exceptional stats, and no iteratives. All attacks will be at the highest bonus (or that -5, but the amount of secondary attacks on the Evolution list is pretty few).
You'll never crit worth a damn, but you're looking at hitting at far above average percentages and for respectable damage (with power attack).
In our game, everyone averaged about the same DPR more or less (I built conservatively for the sake of table-balance). But where as other characters would have big spikes of damage (Magus critting with a shocking grasp, or someone else having a particularly good round) I would consistently do X damage. Extremely reliable without many highs or lows.
Power Attack should be your default state, and will take a bit more to "turn off" than on a standard character. Once normal characters get to a point where they've got spotty accuracy, it turns their full attack to Good/abyssmal/miss. You're all at the same bonus so Good/Good/Good with power attack can tend to outperform Great/Great/Great without.
Its the same general methodology that helps Feral Mutagen Alchemists punch well above their weight.
Final advice on Synthesist, or summoner at all, is to play to your party. Keep the rest of the group's capabilities in mind and build around that. Just because you can have 4 primary claw attacks at 5th level doesn't mean it is a good idea to do so. Everyone is at the table to have fun, not to watch the Synthesist Super Show. So try to balance your capabilities with the party and try to find a niche to be helpful (Typically it will become controlling space and movement through size, reach, and the occasional pit spell). Doing otherwise will just ensure you're never going to play Synthesist or Summoner again.
True, true. If you have 4 attacks at a higher number and get some secondaries and only 3 below that, (+10/+10/+10/+10, and a gore/tail +7/+7) you'll have an almost equal chance at hitting with the secondaries than a dual wielder with iterative/extra attacks from BAB6+ and improved dual wield (+13/+13, +8/+8) But when you have twice as many attacks, but you're only 2 to hit lower, the moment some Bard tosses out the inspires or you get hit with some bless/aids, you're going to start blasting through things. Most of your beef is on the primary side, while even if you miss with a secondary *shrug* d4+4 dmg less? oh well. The dual wielder, on the other hand, will probably miss 1 or 2 of his secondaries, which he mistaken believes are just moa attacks! = mo' damage! (not really)
Thus, why I would ignore both options and take the barbarian with the 24 str raging and power-attack and a big greatsword, or two-hander fighter. I auto-hit with my first attack, on a charge-through greater overrun. Everything starts dying. Rar. (no, not really, i take the invesitgator mastermind and send you poisoned muffin-bombs, delivered by my underworld minions.)
Furious Focus only works with weapons wielded two handed.
==Aelryinth
He's using an Eidolon using Natural Attacks. It's an irrelevant feat for his purposes.
==Aelryinth
unless maybe he follows the chain for dreadful carnage later? intimidate spaz, and lowered saves/attack/skills on enemies that are shaken. once you go down that road, though, say goodbye to all your feats. I really hate taking any feat purely as a prereq.
I donno, level 5 eidolon's just barely got the 4 bab... add in +5 str, he's a +9basic, +7/+7/+7/+7 because multiattack claws? They count as primary, so full str damage, that's not bad. But -2 to hit is +5/+5/+5/+5. Even against a AC 15 enemy that's a 50% chance at best to hit... Well, let's face it, it's not much worse of a chance to hit than 60% per attack without power attack. d8+7 per attack, 4 times, is 2 hits on average at d8+7. That's right on par with say, a dual wield str-based slayer/ranger guide of the same level, using dual wield shortswords.
Guide, *with* ranger focus, at level 5 - +4/+4 hit damage, + 16 str, weapon focus, power attack. mw shortwords:
attack: +10/+10, damage: d6+9 / d6+6 offhand = ~12/10 per hit
Vs ac 15: 75% hit chance per attack.your eidolon, vs ac 15:
attack: +5, power attack (x 4 swings) d8+7 averaging 11.5 per hit.
Vs ac 15 = 50% chance to hit.If you're up against larger/lower ac enemies, synthesist shines, against higher ac, ranger shines.
Up to you. You'll always get more evolutions later to boost your damage other ways. If you can drink some elixirs that boost those attack bonuses up, do it.
Nitpick. All his claws are at +9 before using power attack. There is no penalty for attacking with multiple claws in a round. It is not TWF.
He would do either 4 claws at +9 to hit and 1d6+5 damage, or 4 claws at +7 to hit and 1d6+9 damage. Power attack is a -1 to hit +2 to damage and scales once you hit 4 BAB and every 4 thereafter.
I donno, level 5 eidolon's just barely got the 4 bab... add in +5 str, he's a +9basic, +7/+7/+7/+7 because multiattack claws? They count as primary, so full str damage, that's not bad. But -2 to hit is +5/+5/+5/+5. Even against a AC 15 enemy that's a 50% chance at best to hit... Well, let's face it, it's not much worse of a chance to hit than 60% per attack without power attack. d8+7 per attack, 4 times, is 2 hits on average at d8+7. That's right on par with say, a dual wield str-based slayer/ranger guide of the same level, using dual wield shortswords.
Guide, *with* ranger focus, at level 5 - +4/+4 hit damage, + 16 str, weapon focus, power attack. mw shortwords:
attack: +10/+10, damage: d6+9 / d6+6 offhand = ~12/10 per hit
Vs ac 15: 75% hit chance per attack.your eidolon, vs ac 15:
attack: +5, power attack (x 4 swings) d8+7 averaging 11.5 per hit.
Vs ac 15 = 50% chance to hit.If you're up against larger/lower ac enemies, synthesist shines, against higher ac, ranger shines.
Up to you. You'll always get more evolutions later to boost your damage other ways. If you can drink some elixirs that boost those attack bonuses up, do it.
Nitpick. All his claws are at +9 before using power attack. There is no penalty for attacking with multiple claws in a round. It is not TWF.
He would do either 4 claws at +9 to hit and 1d6+5 damage, or 4 claws at +7 to hit and 1d6+9 damage. Power attack is a -1 to hit +2 to damage and scales once you hit 4 BAB and every 4 thereafter.
I've been under the impression that using multple limbs for attacks require Multiattack, which functions just like dual wielding.
But then you said that, and I went and looked again... so the -2 is to your secondary attacks... wow. So that's just incredibly op. 4 attacks a round at your highest base attack.... boxboxbox, okay, then this basically blows any dual wield out of the water.I was already sold that systhesists were OP when I thought they suffered penalties in multiattacks. But now I'm religious about it, that build invalidates practically every other dual wield build. Nothing stopping them from getting a slough of secondaries, and having all those attacks add up to a much more deadly build than any kamaloon monk frenzy I can think of.
Okay, so combat expertise, trip, as soon as possible. With that many attacks and that few attack penalties, you'll land one in the first four hits, then shred them into jerky with what's left and your four+ secondaries when you get them. This is why they pfs banned it I guess...
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I am also playing a 5th level synthesist, 4 claws, 20 str.I'd be curious to see more of your build at present.
1/2 elf, all fcb to more evolutions
feats:
xtra evo times 2
improved init
evo: (biped form)
magic fly= 4 evo points
energy attack (acid)= 2 evo points
str +2= 2 evo points
claws x2= 1 evo point
reach (1 set of claws)= 1 evo point
improved damage (claws)= 1 evo point
because of flying all the time, 4 attacks always possible.
Enlarge, Mage Armor and Bull Str on as wanted.
AC: 25 (belt Dex +2) (with MA on)
Attacks: 4x +10, 1d6+6+1d6 acid (base)
Fly skill maxed and with perfect magic fly ability a +8 bonus.
Fly: +19...never need to make a fly check as he autos on all DCs.
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I'm running some comparison numbers through level 10, with both one and two handed weapons, and there does seem to be some common break points at which power attack stops being helpful. I'm trying to reduce it to the bare minimum conditions to make it easier to work with.
I would always start with Power Attack, then adjust as follows:
1) As long as you can hit on a 12, continue Power Attacking, no matter what.
2) If your other damage bonuses (that multiply on a critical hit) are equal to or less than the bonus damage you get from Power Attack, then continue Power Attacking as long as you hit on 16.
3) If your other damage bonuses are 1.5 to 2 times greater than your Power Attack, then continue Power Attacking as long as you hit on a 14.
4) If you only hit with a 20 even when you're not Power Attacking, then continue Power Attacking.
Even if you're near the break point where you start to do less damage with Power Attack, this is only slightly less damage until you have 2 iterative attacks.
Oddly, level 8 (for a full BAB character) seems to be a bad level for Power Attack: coincidently, the average monster AC jumps by 2 around CR9 and the Power Attack penalty jumps to the next level, also. You could probably just say "Don't Power Attack on level 8" and be good.
I donno, level 5 eidolon's just barely got the 4 bab... add in +5 str, he's a +9basic, +7/+7/+7/+7 because multiattack claws? They count as primary, so full str damage, that's not bad. But -2 to hit is +5/+5/+5/+5. Even against a AC 15 enemy that's a 50% chance at best to hit... Well, let's face it, it's not much worse of a chance to hit than 60% per attack without power attack. d8+7 per attack, 4 times, is 2 hits on average at d8+7. That's right on par with say, a dual wield str-based slayer/ranger guide of the same level, using dual wield shortswords.
Guide, *with* ranger focus, at level 5 - +4/+4 hit damage, + 16 str, weapon focus, power attack. mw shortwords:
attack: +10/+10, damage: d6+9 / d6+6 offhand = ~12/10 per hit
Vs ac 15: 75% hit chance per attack.your eidolon, vs ac 15:
attack: +5, power attack (x 4 swings) d8+7 averaging 11.5 per hit.
Vs ac 15 = 50% chance to hit.If you're up against larger/lower ac enemies, synthesist shines, against higher ac, ranger shines.
Up to you. You'll always get more evolutions later to boost your damage other ways. If you can drink some elixirs that boost those attack bonuses up, do it.
Nitpick. All his claws are at +9 before using power attack. There is no penalty for attacking with multiple claws in a round. It is not TWF.
He would do either 4 claws at +9 to hit and 1d6+5 damage, or 4 claws at +7 to hit and 1d6+9 damage. Power attack is a -1 to hit +2 to damage and scales once you hit 4 BAB and every 4 thereafter.
Okay, fast way to figure the damage. Where do +9 and d6+5 and +7 and d6+9 cross?
AC 20, 50% chance to hit with +9, of 8.5 dmg, = 4.25.
40% chance to hit with +7, of 12.5 damage = 5 dmg.
AC 25, 25% chance of 8.5 = 2.125
15% chance of 12.5 = 1.875.
They probably cross about AC 23. Below AC 23, Power Attack.
If you become size L from Enlarge, dmg goes up 2 pts, to 10.5 and 14.5
Average becomes 5.25 vs 5.8. Note the -2 TH effect from Power Attack on damage...avg dmg went up only .8, vs 1 for non-PA.
So the crossing point becomes sooner. Probably AC 22.
As your non-Power Attack damage increases, the crossing point becomes lower and lower. INA and Arcane Strike, would pop your Enlarged damage to 2-12 +8 and +12 respectively.
So, average damage of 15 and 19. 50% x 15 = 7.5, 40% x 19 = 7.6. You break even at AC 20.
So, I suggest just finding the break point AC every time your Eidolon's damage changes. Then all you have to do is add or subtract incidental bonuses to hit.
The lower the enemy AC, the better Power Attack is.
The higher Non-PA damage is, the lower the breakpoint is.
==Aelryinth
Thanks for the math breakdown. My problem had been that I hadn't known how to reconcile average damage with the reduced chance to hit; but I get it now. Following the model and running my own numbers, I see that my current cutoff point is indeed at AC 22; 23 and up is better without Power Aatack.
AC 22, 40% chance to hit with +9, of 10.5 dmg x 4 = 16.8 dmg.
30% chance to hit with +7, of 14.5 dmg x 4 = 17.4 dmg.
AC 23, 35% chance to hit with +9, of 10.5 dmg x 4 = 14.7 dmg.
25% chance to hit with +7, of 14.5 dmg x 4 = 14.5 dmg.
Now that I know the math however I can see that, in my case at least, either Improved Natural Attack or Arcane Strike have a better return for damage on average than Power Attack. It'd probably be different if I were getting 150% Str on attacks. So I'll aim to get those two feats first and pick up Power Attack down the line.
Just remember that Arcane Strike takes a swift action. That's potentially important if you're a spellcaster.
==Aelryinth
Summoners are spellcasters, but I'm not seeing any pressing need to conserve swift actions. Have examples?
quicken spells.