So I'm very well versed in building a TWF, via Ranger class, but i get criticized for my choice in arsenal. Id like some opinions on this build vs a TWF build using Fighter class. And also some other good weapon combos to use. I usually dual weild scimitars, which is what i get nagged at mostly for.
People overestimate the consequences of the extra -2 penalty for not using a light weapon in the offhand, but they're right in that there's usually no reason to be suffering from it. Things like using two Slashing Grace weapons with dexterity or using two falcatas at least gives you some kind of reason for doing it.
Sawtooth sabres avoid the extra -2 penalty for not using a light weapon. Pity it's such a stupid weapon concept - well in my opinion anyways. Right, go swing around two saws, that'll make TWF way easier.
A double weapon or a one-handed weapon crossed with a gauntlet/cestus/unarmed strike allows you to freely switch between two-handed weapon and two-weapon fighting, which is handy. Double weapons usually require an exotic proficiency and aren't quite as good as other options, but they're very solid for general TWF. Unarmed Strike or weapons that use it (gauntlet, probably cestus though it's disputable) allow you to pick up other things that use unarmed, like Dragon Style or whatnot. A level or two of Master of Many styles Monk can work offhand unarmed strikes into something really lethal.
Ranger has the advantage of not needing dexterity to pick up TWF, which is very nice; the Guide Ranger archetype also offers a serious boost to general combat ability. On the other hand, Fighter can pick up just enough dexterity to do proper TWF (17) and use bonus feats, archetypes, weapon training (and weapon training +2 gloves) and a larger pool of free feats than the Ranger to be very good as well.
Fighter can also go into Slashing Grace dexterity-based builds with a level of Swashbuckler, which would be the ideal way (and best excuse) to swing around two scimitars (or two falcatas for that matter).
Also lets not forget you can also TWF with a a shield in one hand and a one handed weapon in the other. And if you want to get fancy a polearm in one hand with shield in the other.
Scimitars are really a cliche TWF weapon of choice. But the main reason is that the wielder suffers more penalties than using, say short swords or a pair of wakizashi. Light weapons are your friends. More to-hit means your swings... will hit more.
On the double weapon vs. 1 handed+cestus debate-
For fighters, double weapons are better, since it allows you to use things like weapon focus on all your attacks, and you only need the one weapon training. So you might as well splurge for the EWP.
For rangers, go ahead and use the cestus combo. Rangers rarely get too much out of weapon specific feats.
For fighters, double weapons are better, since it allows you to use things like weapon focus on all your attacks, and you only need the one weapon training. So you might as well splurge for the EWP.
Well, it depends on how you go about it. Picking up a Katana or Falcata with EWP instead means that all of your standard attacks and half of your full attacks are better, at the cost of half of your full attacks being worse; you can also wield your mainhand weapon one-handed for various purposes like using a quickdraw shield or in a grapple. Really it comes down to how you're building the Fighter and what kind of things you're spending your feats on.
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Sword and Shield is another way to go two weapon fighting. Granted, two different weapons doesn't let you double dip weapon focus. OTOH your AC will be better than the two-kukri trope... and there's some great shield fighting feats that rarely see use you could capitalize upon.
There's even a trait in Inner Sea Gods to allow you to consider a heavy shield a light weapon, allowing you to keep a substantial weapon in your main hand.
I have a cavalier I'm playing in PFS that's using this route. It's a bit of an experiment.. cavaliers don't get all the feats fighters do and I'm actually bothering with the mounted combat chain to boot, further diluting the effectiveness of TWF. However, cavalier's challenge does satisfy the cardinal rule for TWF: Have a way to get meaningful bonus damage per hit or don't bother trying TWF at all.
Sawtooth sabre has a huge advantage if you're ever planning to be enlarged. Swinging 2d6 on each hand is kind of nice.
If you're doing a fighter build using a scimitar, there's no reason not to spend one of your many feats on EWP to pick up two wakizashis: same damage, same crit range, no extra penalty in the off hand.
If you don't have the feat, you might still be better off with two kukris instead: lose 1 damage per hit to offset +2 to your attack rolls.
If you're using the two scimitars for flavor/character choice: don't worry about people rolling their eyes and have fun playing your character the way you want to.
If you want to get really crafty about it, using unarmed strikes as your offhand weapon opens up some very interesting options.
For one thing, you can fight with a one-handed weapon and unarmed strikes while simply carrying a heavy shield, and say the unarmed strike is a punch that just happens to have a shield on it. You can't use the Shield Slam feat with it, but you can pick up Dragon Style for an extra heavy offhand smash; in fact, you can pretty much replace Double Slice with Dragon Style since it guarantees you 1.5xSTR on your first offhand.
It gets better yet if you pick up a level of Monk, since your 'offhand' unarmed strikes now get full one-handed strength and power-attack bonuses automatically, and you can qualify for Dragon Ferocity to make your offhand attacks 2x/1.5x strength. Master of Many Styles is the obvious choice since you don't need flurry, and that just opens up yet more possibilities - like picking up Snake Style/Fang and viciously retaliating against anything that misses you.
Thanks for all your opinions, was really wanting to see what people would say and how diverse the responses would be. I really like the dual sun blade option, thoughany campaign ive played in lately either doesnt last long enough to my hands on a pair or money is just super lax in the campaign.
The downside to that being that until you can qualify for an 11BAB feat, you're stuck with two really lousy weapons with no up-side...
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The downside to that being that until you can qualify for an 11BAB feat, you're stuck with two really lousy weapons with no up-side...
iirc, Ranger Shield Style allows you to get the feat at 6th level, opening up that option at a more reasonable time. Rangers and Slayers always did have that strange edge on Fighters in TWF.
Funny enough, Druids with that one archetype from the Advance Class Guide qualify as well thanks to getting Slayer Tricks instead of Wild Shape. Not the best trade, but it opens up some really interesting options. (I've been thinking of playing an archer Druid with this.)
The downside to that being that until you can qualify for an 11BAB feat, you're stuck with two really lousy weapons with no up-side...iirc, Ranger Shield Style allows you to get the feat at 6th level, opening up that option at a more reasonable time. Rangers and Slayers always did have that strange edge on Fighters in TWF.
That's true, though a Weapon and Shield Ranger doesn't have Improved Two Weapon Fighting or Two Weapon Rend on their list at all, so they either lose the advantage of not needing TWF dexterity or they never get more than one offhand attack. Either way, they're still stuck with using two really weak base weapons for Ranger TWF, where the base damage die of a weapon matters a lot more than it does for higher damage builds, and where it's really sad to have a 20, x2 crit on all attacks with a weapon that it's hardly worth casting Lead Blades on. It's arguably better for a TWF Ranger with a shield to go Two Weapon Fighting style, get Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Rend for free, pick up shield feats (which have no dexterity requirement) when they become available, and be working up a solid main-hand weapon from the start.
However to be fair, I'm also just prejudiced against TWF with a pair of shields for being a really, really goofy fighting style.
Dual shields is pretty much the only way you'll ever catch a hammer I build wielding a shield. Dual shields are awesome.
My favorite TWF'er is definitely the Brawler, Fighter archetype. They make the cestus sexy. Plus, it stacks with Eldritch Guardian, which means you're rocking a good will save as well as all the goodies from the familiar itself.
Dual shields is pretty much the only way you'll ever catch a hammer I build wielding a shield. Dual shields are awesome.
Eh, for a TWF 'hammer' with a shield that uses a tiny-dice 20 x2 weapon, I prefer exploiting the fact that their 'metaphorical' shield hand is free to maul people with Dragon Style unarmed strikes - with or without a better mainhand weapon - while just carrying the lump of wood around. To each their own though... it's not without it's advantages, I suppose.
Dual-weilding two one-handed weapons is a bad idea unless you have someway to reduce the penalties. There is a magic item that allows you to treat a one-handed weapon as if it was a light weapon. There is also an exotic weapon in ultimate combat that has the same stats as a scimitar, but it is a light weapon. However you will need exotic weapon proficiency.