Hmm, maybe we can have fun with his stat block to might the fight more unfair for the PCs.
@DM_Blake that thread is going to go live soon, get your battle plan ready.
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The CR 39 bit always struck me as odd; I'm guessing there's an earlier write-up that's compatible with 3.5 epic rules (and probably has epic feats).
(I'm also guessing that if you recalculated his CR in comparison to the actual chart from Mythic Adventures, he's probably a CR 33 or 34? Extending that chart further is just math, after all. Though I'm now inclined to argue that he's closer to what a CR 30 actually SHOULD be, as CR 26+ beings got their numbers pretty badly lowballed.)
I'd expect a party of mythic characters to be fully capable of challenging him (and killing him), since mythic characters are basically demigods (or equivalent) in their own right.
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How I would make Lucifer, take Nocticula stats, Hp, AC, DR, Stats etc... multiply it by 3.
Instead of summoning Archdevils, I would have an ability called Army of the fallen:
-Summon 13 Infernal Dukes (Advanced Pit Fiends with special abilities), because I don't feel like sitting down and writting down the stats for all the archdevils.
Treasure: Triple of course but well at CR 39, you might as well say that he has every possible items that he wants.
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I'm not so sure. That said, regardless of CR, you can't create something that's has infinite contingencies for everything possible trick PCs can throw at you. If that's your goal, I'd question why you made the thing in the first place. Combat should be challenging but capable and dynamic (meaning weird stuff can happen). If you want something more than that, stick with Paizo's advice and just don't stat it. Make it a wholly nonstandard encounter. Forcing a brawl where everything is determined by atk vs. AC is just boring.If you're creating a CR 39 caster monster, and it goes down like a cheap trick to the tricks in this thread, then you've done it wrong.If you've created a CR 39 anything, then you've done it wrong.There's just little (if anything) that I could imagine would justify the scale that such a CR implies. To put this into perspective, it's supposed to be the equivalent of fighting 683.33333333333333333333333333333 pit fiends (which is to say, 683 pit fiends and some leftover XP for traps and/or minions) at the same time. That would be an equivalent encounter.
Unfortunately, most people just make a "big numbers" monster and slap a high CR on it like that means something. Most of the time, all it means is it's a waste of space. You won't use the monster, and if you ever do, it'll be a grossly disappointing encounter when it's all said and down with. Amusingly, his most interesting ability is his summon, but his summon is trivially easy to get around at a much lower level (let him summon, then GTFO for 1 hour, laugh about it a bit, then come back to fight him; he can't use it for another week now).
I see your point and largely agree. I'm simply loathe to take my own experience and think it applies to someone else's game. I'm sure there are games out there where ridiculous CRs are exactly what's needed for damn good reasons.
Here's what I do.
I get a level 20 bard, mythic tier 10.
I max out Charisma. I get a headband of alluring Charisma +6. This should give me a Cha of around 40.
I max out Perform (Comedy). I take Skill Focus (Perform [Comedy]) and Prodigy (Perform (Comedy))
Between skill points, feats, and my Cha bonus, I should have a Perform (Comedy) skill bonus of +47.
I take Versatile Performance to let my Comedy skill substitute for Bluff or Intimidate.
I take Display of Charisma, which gives me +20 on Cha skill rolls if I spend a point of mythic power.
Finally, I grab a ring of three wishes. I mutter to the ring, "I wish for this plan to work!!!"
And then, I review my bonuses:
D20 +47 (skill bonus) +20 (Display of Charisma) +1d12 (surge).
I yell:
Then I hope like hell that my D20+67+1d12 Bluff (or maybe Intimidate) roll beats Lucifer's +71 Sense Motive modifier. Then, I find a good seat to watch them fight each other.
Yet still the master of his own plane and the boss of a infinity of devils.But hopefully still vulnerable to a Yo Mama joke.
With this CL 1st item, he his.
(You're guaranteed to beat his Sense Motive.)
EDIT: well, upon review, I guess it's still open for debate - it's actually 87+1d12 v. 71+d20... or 88-99 v. 72-91.
Hm.. could you maybe get a tad higher?
That'll put you at least +3 higher! So close!
EDIT: BAM. Okay, we're done here. Plan: success! :D
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I see your point and largely agree. I'm simply loathe to take my own experience and think it applies to someone else's game. I'm sure there are games out there where ridiculous CRs are exactly what's needed for damn good reasons.I'm not so sure. That said, regardless of CR, you can't create something that's has infinite contingencies for everything possible trick PCs can throw at you. If that's your goal, I'd question why you made the thing in the first place. Combat should be challenging but capable and dynamic (meaning weird stuff can happen). If you want something more than that, stick with Paizo's advice and just don't stat it. Make it a wholly nonstandard encounter. Forcing a brawl where everything is determined by atk vs. AC is just boring.If you're creating a CR 39 caster monster, and it goes down like a cheap trick to the tricks in this thread, then you've done it wrong.If you've created a CR 39 anything, then you've done it wrong.There's just little (if anything) that I could imagine would justify the scale that such a CR implies. To put this into perspective, it's supposed to be the equivalent of fighting 683.33333333333333333333333333333 pit fiends (which is to say, 683 pit fiends and some leftover XP for traps and/or minions) at the same time. That would be an equivalent encounter.
Unfortunately, most people just make a "big numbers" monster and slap a high CR on it like that means something. Most of the time, all it means is it's a waste of space. You won't use the monster, and if you ever do, it'll be a grossly disappointing encounter when it's all said and down with. Amusingly, his most interesting ability is his summon, but his summon is trivially easy to get around at a much lower level (let him summon, then GTFO for 1 hour, laugh about it a bit, then come back to fight him; he can't use it for another week now).
If you scale the PCs to the level that they would be within CR-range of it, Lucifer would be nothing more than a stain on the Paladin's boot before the Paladin even noticed. How does one even decide that it's a CR 39 encounter? A dart board? Most likely.
EDIT: Or do you mean overly inflated CRs are needed for a reason? I might not have understood what you meant. :o
If you scale the PCs to the level that they would be within CR-range of it, Lucifer would be nothing more than a stain on the Paladin's boot before the Paladin even noticed. How does one even decide that it's a CR 39 encounter? A dart board? Most likely.
EDIT: Or do you mean overly inflated CRs are needed for a reason? I might not have understood what you meant. :o
I'm thinking maybe something of a continuous campaign that's lasted for years. I've certainly heard of D&D campaigns doing that. Why not PF ones? There aren't items or many class skills that scale that high. You're not going to consistently have much over a CL 20, comparatively speaking. It even challenges some of the most ridiculous wizard builds out there. The point is, you're into some serious homebrew territory. The mere idea of labeling that badwrongfun is poor taste to me.
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I'm thinking maybe something of a continuous campaign that's lasted for years. I've certainly heard of D&D campaigns doing that. Why not PF ones? There aren't items or many class skills that scale that high. You're not going to consistently have much over a CL 20, comparatively speaking. It even challenges some of the most ridiculous wizard builds out there. The point is, you're into some serious homebrew territory. The mere idea of labeling that badwrongfun is poor taste to me.If you scale the PCs to the level that they would be within CR-range of it, Lucifer would be nothing more than a stain on the Paladin's boot before the Paladin even noticed. How does one even decide that it's a CR 39 encounter? A dart board? Most likely.
EDIT: Or do you mean overly inflated CRs are needed for a reason? I might not have understood what you meant. :o
Oh, please don't misunderstand, I'm not criticizing it simply because it's intended for post 20 or even post 30 play. I've had games go into epics and had to deal with how to handle them as well (for the record, just don't use the ELH from 3.0, it's just bad, and I had to find out the hard way when I was younger).
What I'm criticizing is the pointlessness of slapping a big CR 39 on the critter. How was that determined, exactly? It surely seems unlikely that it is in fact equivalent to so many pit fiends. It seems very questionable from a lore standpoint that while lucifer is cannonically wrestled down and tossed into the pit of fire by the archangel Michael that he would be CR 39 while the "most powerful angels in existence and right hands of gods" are CR 23. So from both a mechanical and narrative point, this seems pretty bogus.
Further, as levels rise, more is more. More interesting encounters are achieved by far less. Due to the way XP values scale, you get far more out of multiple lower-CR foes than not.
It just feels like these over-inflated monsters show a real lack of understanding for how this game's framework works, and though it exists to fill a rare niche (parties that reach 36th level or so) it doesn't even do that well. It fails mechanically and narratively. :(
Oh, please don't misunderstand, I'm not criticizing it simply because it's intended for post 20 or even post 30 play. I've had games go into epics and had to deal with how to handle them as well (for the record, just don't use the ELH from 3.0, it's just bad, and I had to find out the hard way when I was younger).
What I'm criticizing is the pointlessness of slapping a big CR 39 on the critter. How was that determined, exactly? It surely seems unlikely that it is in fact equivalent to so many pit fiends. It seems very questionable from a lore standpoint that while lucifer is cannonically wrestled down and tossed into the pit of fire by the archangel Michael that he would be CR 39 while the "most powerful angels in existence and right hands of gods" are CR 23. So from both a mechanical and narrative point, this seems pretty bogus.
Further, as levels rise, more is more. More interesting encounters are achieved by far less. Due to the way XP values scale, you get far more out of multiple lower-CR foes than not.
It just feels like these over-inflated monsters show a real lack of understanding for how this game's framework works, and though it exists to fill a rare niche (parties that reach 36th level or so) it doesn't even do that well. It fails mechanically and narratively. :(
That lets me understand what you mean a bit better. Thanks.
I'm still not so quick to call it superfluous, though. With the advent of Mythic rules, a "regular" mythic 10 version (as much as those words should be shied from) is CR 28 making it a full demigod in its own right. It could be that this Michael figure is a demigod without Mythic rules or even a minor god himself in the exclusive service of a greater deity. Whether or not that would put him to ~CR 40 territory is debatable.
Most importantly, though, is that it's a third party creature. I doubt, too, there was a stringent effort to keep the CR sane. It was born of a mythos centered around two "all powerful but opposing" type idioms, after all. It was created before the demigod guidelines changed as well. Used to be, they were CR 30+, iirc. The reduction of that range to CR 26-30 with Mythic rules could make this just a victim of the changing tides of the system. Before Mythic, as I think you're aware as you mention it, the common way to make extremely powerful creatures was to use 3.x material and do a soft conversion to Pathfinder.
So, I don't find the CR of this Lucifer to be either flippant or precise. I'd say it's a creation born of the circumstances of the time more than anything else. The mental gymnastics of fitting the Judeo-Christian Lucifer into Golarion takes more effort, imo. The most likely version of events that relate to the given story (ruled Hell before Asmodeus) was that he was a rival deity (or, if Michael was, indeed, a nonregular Solar, then why would Lucifer be a regular one), and, long story short, the victor gets to tell the story they prefer.
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Eh, I'd probably just run Lucifer as written by Mike Carey and make it a tense social encounter.
Basically Lady of Pain style. You can thwart him, but it isn't going to be by force.
(totally run Michael as an angel of sacred Chaos vs Lucifer's Order. Yay obscure angeology!)
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If they were trying to make it "like Pathfinder" they wouldn't have statted him out at all since there seems to be this "gods don't need stats" thing going on with Pathfinder (something I personally think is a little bogus since there are lots of cannonical examples of deities dying/being killed, in some cases by non-deities like Tar Baphon).
In the same vein, the (very bad) mythic rules weren't around at the time, and the core assumption was that Solars are the top-tier angels that are themselves like quasi-deities. For example, from the Solar's entry on the PRD.
Solars accept roles as guardians, usually of fundamental supernatural concepts, or objects or creatures of great importance. On one world, a group of solars patrols the energy conduits of the sun, alert for any attempts by evil races such as drow to snuff out the light and bring eternal darkness. On another, seven solars stand watch over seven mystical chains keeping evil gods bound within a prison demiplane. On yet another, a solar with a flaming sword stands watch over the original mortal paradise so that no creature may enter.
...
Though they are not gods, the solars' power approaches that of demigods, and they often have an advisory role for younger or weaker deities. In some polytheistic faiths, mortals worship one or more solars as aspects or near-equal servants of the true deities—never without the deity's approval—or consider notable solars to be offspring, consorts, lovers, or spouses of true deities (which they may be, depending on the deity).
...
The oldest solars predate mortality and are among the gods' first creations. These strange solars are paragons of their kind and have little direct interaction with mortals, focusing on the protection or destruction of abstract concepts such as gravity, dark matter, entropy, and primordial evil.
All angels respect the power and wisdom of solars, and though these mightiest of angels usually work alone, they sometimes command multiple armies led by planetars, acting as great field marshals for massive incursions against the legions of Hell or the hordes of the Abyss.
So again, it's a matter of scale.
Let me put this another way. In 3.5, a 17th level wizard can replicate every act of god in the Christian bible, including but not limited to, creating an ever expanding plane of existence modeled after their ideal, creating humanity from dirt, parting oceans, raising the dead, commanding legions of angels, building temples with spirits, being immortal, inspiring people through dreams and/or visions, etc. A wizard in Pathfinder can still do most of these things (parting an ocean is somewhat tricky and calling the entire host of heaven to you in a single round isn't doable anymore).
Surely, there is very little that you could add that would have any narrative benefit, and even less that you could add that would have any mechanical/gameplay benefit. At a certain point you're just talking about bigger numbers or game mechanics that aren't really game mechanics (like omniscience + infallibility). To use such a creature, one would have to...
1. Rewrite the lore of the campaign to explain the holes.
2. Rescale the source material in a major way.
3. Rescale the monster so that it was actually equivalent to the 256 solars that its CR suggests it is supposed to be (that's right, an encounter with 256 solars = CR 39 encounter. Let that sink in for a moment).
4. Rescale the way PCs advance (core PF tells you how to advance PCs beyond 20th level and it works pretty well, but again, a 30th level Paladin is going to turn him into a boot smear).
They could have actually statted him out to be something worthwhile and/or usable. Like a CR 25 creature (ridiculously powerful in godlike ways) and actually bothered to check some of the math that they were playing around with, probably could have set it up really nicely. It would also be within reason that maybe a slightly boosted Solar would have been able to toss him into the fiery pit.
Honestly though, I'd have pegged CR 25 as deity-level power anyway. At that point you're talking about being equivalent to two solars which are gods by any reasonable definition of the word.
Fun Fact: Lucifer isn't immune to negative energy effects or ability damage.
That's pretty funny. To be fair though he doesn't really need to be. Being a sentient casting superguy, he's probably going to be immune to those things in the same way that PCs are generally immune to those things (death ward, etc).
I'm not saying he's a wussy like Cthulu is a wussy. I'm just saying that I'm very disappointed.
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Another example of how the cr system is broken
The CR system in Pathfinder works really, really well. However when you choose a CR with a dartboard, you can't expect much.
Another example of how the cr system is brokenThe CR system in Pathfinder works really, really well. However when you choose a CR with a dartboard, you can't expect much.
Going to get off topic now, but perhaps you have a thought provoking essay on the subject pre-written: Why do you think the CR system works well? In my experience I don't find it to be a very useful tool for gauging what should or shouldn't be a challenging encounter mostly do to how the power level of parties can vary so wildly based on of different party compositions, optimization, and player experience.
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Going to get off topic now, but perhaps you have a thought provoking essay on the subject pre-written: Why do you think the CR system works well?Another example of how the cr system is brokenThe CR system in Pathfinder works really, really well. However when you choose a CR with a dartboard, you can't expect much.
Pre-written, no. Give me an hour or two. >_>
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Going to get off topic now, but perhaps you have a thought provoking essay on the subject pre-written: Why do you think the CR system works well? In my experience I don't find it to be a very useful tool for gauging what should or shouldn't be a challenging encounter mostly do to how the power level of parties can vary so wildly based on of different party compositions, optimization, and player experience.Another example of how the cr system is brokenThe CR system in Pathfinder works really, really well. However when you choose a CR with a dartboard, you can't expect much.
It's not perfect - both because groups vary in power, and because there's quite a bit of rock/scissors/paper in the system (and there should be - such as will o' wisps being relatively easy if someone in the party has Gmproved Feint) - and there's certainly some outliers on both ends.
But it's certainly better than GMs simply glancing over a monster's stats and taking a guess at whether or not their group can handle it.
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I guess Lucifer used maybe a 1000 wishes for things like as soon as someone attacks me in my sanctum have it automatically drain him of all magical power. As soon as I am attacked I am under the effect of time stop. Have his lair under constant effect of mind blank And many more funny things
This is Lucifer post-defeat by Asmodeus and after having lost most of his power, however.
Yeah, I was thinking after reading the fluff, if he summoned the archdevils, wouldn't Asmodeus say to the other archdevils, "I'm in charge, not him. Kill him,"?
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Pre-written, no. Give me an hour or two. >_>Going to get off topic now, but perhaps you have a thought provoking essay on the subject pre-written: Why do you think the CR system works well?Another example of how the cr system is brokenThe CR system in Pathfinder works really, really well. However when you choose a CR with a dartboard, you can't expect much.
As promised. Sorry, it was about 3 hours. In Defense of CR.
This is Lucifer post-defeat by Asmodeus and after having lost most of his power, however.Yeah, I was thinking after reading the fluff, if he summoned the archdevils, wouldn't Asmodeus say to the other archdevils, "I'm in charge, not him. Kill him,"?
The Tome of Horrors Lucifer has his own set of archdevils that he's summoning.
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solars are not the most powerful angels existence as there are Empyreal Lords many of which are angels. According to james jacobs being a god does not make one not an angel. Sarenrae is still a angel and Empyreal Lord just like Asmodeus is still a devil or Lamashtu is still a Demon and Demon Lord.
I was pointing out the conflict of lore. Solars are noted as the most powerful and awesome of the angels.
Lucifer should be deity level
Yes and no.
archangel Michael would be deity level
Yes and no.
(17th level wizard can replicate every act of god in the Christian bible) so what? is that any thing to brag about in pathfinder? any deity can do that to.
Missing the point. I'm saying that after a point, saying "I'm bigger" is rather meaningless. If you are already by every reasonable definition of a god a god, then there's really not much gained, and in turn not really much that justifies such an over-inflated CR.
Is this 17th level wizard going to fight Asmodeus and win?
Last I checked, I was under the impression that the Pathfinder gods didn't have stats. However, it would not be the first time that a creature of divine rank was curbstomped by a godlike mortal. Tar Baphon has a track record of casually slaying demigods and throwing their broken remains at their followers for the impudent attempt. As in he metaphorically snapped a god-thing that can actually grant followers spells and such, over his knee, and laughed about it in front of her followers who called her to help them fight him. And he's just a lich (a lich with some mythic ranks, but still just a lich).
Whom even with backing of the gods and some plot-power artifacts still wasn't destroyed. The best they did was seal him up inside Gallowspire (which amusingly puts him in a similar state to Rovagug). He's another evil (that isn't even a god) that rather than being destroyed is just locked up in hopes he doesn't get free, decide he wants some revenge for thousands of years of watching Friends reruns in the basement, and go curbstomp the world rather than just sitting in Ustalav minding his own damn business before a bunch of crusaders showed up on his doorstep to preach the good gospel to him.
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Sadly, most quasidieties and demigods actually have significantly less narrative power than a L17 wizard or cleric. Higher caster level, but significantly less powers to use it with.
I'd qualify a "17th level wizard can replicate every act of god in the Christian bible" with "on a much, much smaller scale."
I think Tacticslion or someone else did the math on how many times you'd have to cast create greater demiplane to actually make one the size of a planet, and the number was ludicrous.
Scale is what separates real gods from the pretenders.
Re: Tar-Baphon - Tar-Baphon is a rank 10 mythic lich who is directly backed by Urgathoa (to the point that Urgathoa personally handles the security of his phylactery - Urgathoa might actually love the dude, which has its own disturbing ramifications). Aroden had to settle for bottling TB up because Urgathoa was running interference on actually ending him.
The goddess TB took down wasn't a fullblown diety but rather a fellow mythic opponent - Arazni, who's a L20 wizard with the divine source ability and 8 mythic ranks.
(We also have Arazni the lich's stats. My impression looking at the two stat blocks is that a fight between them could easily go either way. I'm guessing something went really, really wrong when Arazni lost the first time.)
Incidentally, as a rank 10 mythic lich, Tar-Baphon's a CR 27 opponent (or CR 26 if he's inexplicably undergeared, like his mythic realms write up). Tar-Baphon isn't a demigod, but he's soundly in their (CR 26+) weight class. (Much like Baba Yaga, actually.)
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As promised. Sorry, it was about 3 hours. In Defense of CR.Pre-written, no. Give me an hour or two. >_>Going to get off topic now, but perhaps you have a thought provoking essay on the subject pre-written: Why do you think the CR system works well?Another example of how the cr system is brokenThe CR system in Pathfinder works really, really well. However when you choose a CR with a dartboard, you can't expect much.
Just wanted to comment: good article.
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As promised. Sorry, it was about 3 hours. In Defense of CR.Pre-written, no. Give me an hour or two. >_>Going to get off topic now, but perhaps you have a thought provoking essay on the subject pre-written: Why do you think the CR system works well?Another example of how the cr system is brokenThe CR system in Pathfinder works really, really well. However when you choose a CR with a dartboard, you can't expect much.
"Lowly goblin"? You pickin a fight mate?!
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Just wanted to comment: good article.As promised. Sorry, it was about 3 hours. In Defense of CR.Pre-written, no. Give me an hour or two. >_>Going to get off topic now, but perhaps you have a thought provoking essay on the subject pre-written: Why do you think the CR system works well?Another example of how the cr system is brokenThe CR system in Pathfinder works really, really well. However when you choose a CR with a dartboard, you can't expect much.
Thanks. :)
"Lowly goblin"? You pickin a fight mate?!
Nay good sir. I was drawing parallel between a mighty dragon and a lowly goblin. One much greater than the average of its kind and one lesser than the average of its own. I used dragon and goblin because both are two very different creatures, what with one being enormous creature with giant angs wings and a tail, and the other being small humanoid of peerless stealth, guile, and cunning.
It would surely be very different if it was a mighty goblin, and thanks to the wonder of the CR system, we can see when that mighty goblin is mighty enough to be worth as much experience as the mighty dragon, or even more if he happens to be the mightiest. :D
Sadly, most quasidieties and demigods actually have significantly less narrative power than a L17 wizard or cleric. Higher caster level, but significantly less powers to use it with.
I'd qualify a "17th level wizard can replicate every act of god in the Christian bible" with "on a much, much smaller scale."
I think Tacticslion or someone else did the math on how many times you'd have to cast create greater demiplane to actually make one the size of a planet, and the number was ludicrous.
Scale is what separates real gods from the pretenders.
Heh, that was a great thread. Thanks for the reminder!
It wasn't me that did the initial calculations - roughly ~97k to make the Earth alone. :)
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A GM can always take the easier way out to have a caster create worlds. A creature with Wish or Miracle (such as a Solar or Pleroma Aeon, which have both) can cast it for the "greater than listed effects" portion and have the spell create a world. Since it requires GM discretion, the GM approves for the full effect and that's it. Which is all RAW legal xD
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Screw it, going ahead and posting this. I may regret doing so.
See, I'd actually done a CR 25 Lucifer-as-infernal-duke write-up - he put in an appearance (as an ally, actually!) in my Mythic Reign of Winter game, towards the end of Rasputin Must Die!
A couple house rules that are in this statblock that I need to explain:
1) Boss template. At minimum, it grants a creature +5 to all saves and double max HP, and usually a couple completely arbitrary abilities to help its action economy. Since Lucifer is a CR 25 infernal duke, he receives the boss template with no adjustment to his CR.
2) Demigod rules - I give any demigod the ability to use every single one of the domain spells from its granted domains as a 1/day spell-like ability. I usually keep these separate from the "normal" SLAs and sort them by domain and subdomain.
This wasn't really meant to be published the forums, so I apologize for any errors or formatting weirdness. And no way am I going through and italicizing all the spells =P
This handsome man bears the countenance of an angel - but with the eyes, wings, and claws of a dragon. He burns brightly with an internal light.
Lightbringer - CR 25 XP 1,638,400
LE BOSS Medium Outsider (Devil, Evil, Lawful)
Init +24; Senses darkvision 120 ft., true seeing; Perception + 43
Aura unbearable brightness (DC 28); unholy aura (DC 32)
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DEFENSE
AC 45, touch 35 , flat-footed 24 (Dex +20, Dodge +1, Natural +10, +4 Deflection)
hp 1,446 (31d10+413); regeneration 20 (good darkness spells)
Fort +32, Ref +46, Will + 36
DR 20/good and silver; Immune charm, compulsion, death effects, fire, poison, light; Resist acid 30, cold 30; SR 36
========================================================
OFFENSE
Speed 150 ft., Fly 300 ft. (perfect)
Melee Occam's Razor +47/+42/+37/+32 (1d8+15/17-20), Claw +36 (1d6+5), 2 Wings +36 (1d6+5), or 2 Claws +41 (1d6+10), 2 Wings +36 (1d6+5) [PA -8/+24/+16/+8]
Special Attacks Occam's Razor, Cage of Light, Divine Action, Shapechanging Mastery
Infernal Duke Spell-Like Abilities (CL 25, concentration +39; each are 1/day)
Evil: protection from good, align weapon (evil), magic circle against good, unholy blight (DC 28), dispel good (DC 29), create undead, blasphemy (DC 31), unholy aura (DC 32), summon monster IX (evil)
Devil: command (DC 25), align weapon (evil), suggestion, unholy blight (DC 24), dispel good (DC 29), planar binding (devils) (DC 30), blasphemy (DC 31), unholy aura (DC 32), summon monster IX (evil)
Law: protection from chaos, align weapon (lawful), magic circle against chaos, order's wrath (DC 28), dispel chaos (DC 29), hold monster (DC 30), dictum (DC 31), shield of law (DC 32), summon monster IX (lawful)
Tyranny: command (DC 25), align weapon (lawful), bestow curse (DC 27), order's wrath (DC 28), dispel chaos (DC 29), hold monster (DC 30), symbol of persuasion (DC 31), shield of law (DC 32), summon monster IX (lawful)
Knowledge: comprehend languages, detect thoughts, speak with dead (DC 27), divination, true seeing, find the path, legend lore, discern location, foresight
Wind: whispering wind, wind wall, gaseous form, air walk, control winds, wind walk, elemental body IV (air only), whirlwind (DC 32), winds of vengeance (DC 33)
Sun: endure elements, heat metal (DC 26), searing light, fire shield, flame strike (DC 29), fire seeds (DC 30), sunbeam (DC 31), sunburst (DC 32), prismatic sphere (DC 33)
Revelation: detect secret doors, see invisibility, banish seeming, fire shield, true seeing, fire seeds (DC 30), sunbeam (DC 31), sunburst (DC 32), prismatic sphere (DC 33)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 25th; concentration +39)
Constant - unbearable brightness (DC 28) (only while in true form), unholy aura (DC 32), shapechange, tongues, true seeing
At will - analyze dweomer, blasphemy (DC 31), charm monster (DC 28), dominate person (DC 29), freedom of movement, greater arcane sight, greater dispel magic, greater scrying (DC 31), invisibility purge, greater teleport, mass suggestion (DC 30), sunbeam (DC 31), sunburst (DC 32)
3/day - banishment (DC 31), quickened greater dispel magic, persistent prismatic spray (DC 31), vision, spell turning, persistent sunburst (DC 32)
1/day - dominate monster (DC 33), limited wish (DC 31), wish (DC 33), prismatic sphere (DC 33), time stop
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STATISTICS
Str 30, Dex 50, Con 36, Int 30, Wis 30, Cha 38
Base Atk +31; CMB +41 (+45 Disarm); CMD 75 (77 against Disarm)
Feats Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Improved Disarm, Greater Disarm, Fly-by Attack, Vital Strike, Persuasive, Quicken SLA (greater dispel), Persistent SLA (prismatic spray), Persistent SLA (sunburst), Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved Critical (longsword)
Skills Acrobatics +41, Bluff +48, Diplomacy +52, Fly +41, Intimidate +52, Sense Motive +44, Linguistics +44, Knowledge (Arcana) +44, Knowledge (Religion) +44, Knowledge (Local) +44, Knowledge (Nobility) +34, Knowledge (History) +34, Knowledge (Geography) +34, Perception +43, Perform (String Instrument) +22,
Spellcraft +44, Use Magic Device +40
Languages Celestial, Draconic, Infernal, Hebrew, Latin, Arabic, English, Russian, Polish, Swahili, etc.; tongues; telepathy 300 feet.
SQ Infernal Duke, Greater Starflight, Beam of Light
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ECOLOGY
Environment Any
Organization Solitary
Treasure Triple Standard (Occam's Razor (see below))
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
Infernal Duke Traits: An infernal duke is a powerful devil that has not yet made the full transition from unique devil to full archdevil. It possesses several traits, as summarized here.
• Immunity to charm and compulsion effcts, death effects, fire, and poison.
• Resistance to acid 30 and cold 30.
• Telepathy 300 feet.
• Lightbringer's natural weapons, as well as any weapon he wields, are treated as evil and lawful for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
• Lightbringer can grant spells to his worshipers. Granting spells does not require any specific action on his behalf. Lorthact grants access to the domains of Evil, Law, Sun, and Knowledge, and the subdomains of Devil, Tyranny, Revelation, and Wind. His favored weapon is the longsword.
Beam of Light (Su): Lightbringer can transform himself into a beam of pure light and travel to any location he can see as a move action. This travel must be in a straight line, but otherwise he can travel anywhere that light can enter.
Greater Starflight (Su): Lightbringer can survive in the void of outer space, and flies through outer space at incredible speeds. Although the exact travel time will vary from one trip to the next, a trip within a solar system normally takes Lightbringer 2d6 hours, and a trip beyond normally takes 2d6 days (or more, at the GM's discretion).
Divine Action (Ex, BOSS): at his initiative -10, Lightbringer may cast any of his Infernal Duke spell-like abilities that he has not already used. This casting cannot be disrupted.
Cage of Light (Sp): As a swift action, Lightbringer may create a shapeable wall of force cast at 25th level. If the cage of light is closed off, then the walls turns opaque to any creatures not immune to light effects, and all creatures inside of the cage are subjected to a sunburst (DC 32) every round on Lightbringer's turn. Lightbringer may only have one cage of light active at a time.
Shapechanging Mastery (Ex): Lightbringer carries over all of his special qualities, resistances, movement speed, etc. into any form he assumes. If he shapechanges into a dragon, he gains access to the solar fire property of a solar dragon, and his breath weapon deals 24d10 fire damage (DC 42 reflex). Lightbringer's modified statistics in dragon form: HP 1,694 AC 52 (touch 33, flat 31), fort +36; melee bite +44 (2d8+22), 2 claws +44 (2d6+15), 2 wings +39 (1d8+7), tail slap +39 (2d6+22)
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Occam's Razor (Major Artifact)
Slot none; CL 25th; Weight 3 lbs.; Aura overwhelming all
This +5 heartseeker brilliant energy horicalcum longsword deals damage as normal to objects, undead, and constructs. This weapon bypasses hardness and all damage reduction. On a successful critical hit or vital strike, this weapon may also sever a limb of the wielder's choice, dealing 1d6 damager per hit die of the victim. The victim does not lose a limb if the victim passes a fort save of DC 10 + wielder's BAB (DC 41 while wielded by Lightbringer). Lastly, once per round when striking an illusion, Occam's Razor may attempt to dispel the illusion as by a dispel magic cast at 25th level.
Destruction: Destroying Occam's Razor requires using it to strike a black hole or nebula star, destroying both Occam's Razor and the celestial body in question in a cataclysmic explosion.
Yes, I gave him a lightsaber. No, I didn't assign any other equipment - I'll have to admit I simply forgot to. No one asked, but I would've handwaved it as "FTL travel is rough on your gear." =P
With this CL 1st item, he his.
(You're guaranteed to beat his Sense Motive.)
EDIT: well, upon review, I guess it's still open for debate - it's actually 87+1d12 v. 71+d20... or 88-99 v. 72-91.
Hm.. could you maybe get a tad higher?
That'll put you at least +3 higher! So close!
EDIT: BAM. Okay, we're done here. Plan: success! :D
If I GMed a fiddling contest with Lucifer (probably not with the above stat block), I'd probably do some kind of hybrid skill contest/performance combat thing. The players would be on one side, and Lucifer (along with something like three or four archdevils) would be on the other. There would be an audience. Everybody would roll for initiative. Each side would designate one player to be the fiddler. The other players and such on each side could do other things.
Each "round" we'd figure out what the subsidiary players (PCs on one side, archdevils on the other) are doing. In initiative order, each of them could take actions that help their fiddler, harm the other fiddler, or nullify interference by the other side. After that, the fiddler on each side would roll a Perform (stringed instruments) check against a ridiculously high DC -- probably 75, 80, or higher. Whichever side logs eight successes first will win the contest. However, if either fiddler logs four failures, then that fiddler automatically loses. If both fiddlers reach eight successes in the same round ... then it goes into the FINALE round. For this, each side's secondary players do their aid/harm thing, then each fiddler makes one roll. If both players fail the Perform check, it goes to...
So, what you're saying, is you'd need ten helms of the cyclops. Cool! :D
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No spellcasting to change his loadout?
With clerical spellcasting/20, equal to a Solar, he could simply use spells to replace gear. Give him a standard buff suite at his CL, and watch the numbers really change.
You could say all his clerical spells are cast as spell-likes, too, which would then work exactly as his DOmain SLA's.
And I'm not sure why he's still size M, smaller then a Solar. I'd have his default be H.
==Aelryinth
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Oh, the medium size was intentional - in part because things don't need to be big to be scary - and also for contrast if he used his constant shapechange to turn into a huge plasma-breathing dragon.
"He's a solar but stronger and evil!" wasn't the approach I was coming from. That would certainly be a valid way to do it, though, and making him huge would make sense in that case.
(Also, making every demigod a L20 prepared caster honestly doesn't appeal to me.)
Well, just give him spell slots and give him unlimited choice from those spell slots. Just make it easy, i.e. a spon caster with access to the whole list.
Y'know, godly magical ability.
Then give him a standard buff suite, and use your favorite killer spells as you like to reflect just how bad ass he is.
If you use them as SLA's, he never has to pay comp costs, either.
==Aelryinth
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At that point, you might as well just say "every creature over CR __ has ___, ____, and ____" as SLAs. I might be confused as to what you're going for.
(If it pertains to my domain spells house rule - I'm totally fine with the fact that a demigod might be getting redudant or even irrelevant spells from the giant pile of domain related SLAs - it's 81 SLAs, so I'm not shocked that they aren't all useful. It's just one of the quirks of being a demigod. (And further explains why Baba Yaga went "no thanks." =P)
I am also totally fine with a high CR creature having a wide variety of things they can do, yet a number of things that by default they can't. Gives a demigod a very good reason to have minions.
Dealing 943 Damage in a round is easy. for a high level group. A simple Two-Handed Figther can get closeit with one strike if armed with Tesubo/Scythe.
But can we hit AC:74 reliably?
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Assuming we have a setup for this kill, as in Wizard just want to see Bob the strong and the fair kill Lucifer and not do it himself, as proven before, the casters can do it rather easily.
Wizard has the void school because, why not, he uses reveal weakness on said Lucifer lowering his AC by 10, AC of 64 (no saves allowed), also -10 to his saves.
The mythic one shotter of cthluhu alone has an attack of +48 (including with mythic power attack active) without using his mythic power to boost his attack roll, so let's add surge +1d12 and let's toss in one or two buffs from the cleric(Divine strategist) who is laughin his ass off, who are just amused looking at their friend Bob murderhobo one shotter of cthluhu is going to do, and Bob the Strong and Fair uses Pounce as well (+2 to his attack roll). Roughly should have +60 to hit or maybe more, if Bob and cleric favors the same god, even better with spell like righteous might, we are on a mission from god!.
We aren't even taking into account that Bob most likely would have brought a Holy weapon, if he knew, the kind of evil creature that he was facing.
As promised. Sorry, it was about 3 hours. In Defense of CR.Pre-written, no. Give me an hour or two. >_>Going to get off topic now, but perhaps you have a thought provoking essay on the subject pre-written: Why do you think the CR system works well?Another example of how the cr system is brokenThe CR system in Pathfinder works really, really well. However when you choose a CR with a dartboard, you can't expect much.
I don't see you factoring in the CR Equivalencies table information.
The XP values for high-CR encounters can seem quite daunting. Table: CR Equivalencies provides some simple formulas to help you manage these large numbers. When using a large number of identical creatures, this chart can help simplify the math by combining them into one CR, making it easier to find their total XP value. For example, using this chart, four CR 8 creatures (worth 4,800 XP each) are equivalent to a CR 12 creature (worth 19,200 XP).
Your first group of 1 Troll, 3 Ogres, and 3 Dire Wolves would be a total CR 9, not 8. The 3 Ogres are +3 for CR 6, same for Dire Wolves, and the CR 5 Troll come to a total of 6,400 XP and not 4,800. The same is true for your next example encounter, only shy of CR 9 by 400 XP.
As promised. Sorry, it was about 3 hours. In Defense of CR.Pre-written, no. Give me an hour or two. >_>Going to get off topic now, but perhaps you have a thought provoking essay on the subject pre-written: Why do you think the CR system works well?Another example of how the cr system is brokenThe CR system in Pathfinder works really, really well. However when you choose a CR with a dartboard, you can't expect much.I don't see you factoring in the CR Equivalencies table information.
The XP values for high-CR encounters can seem quite daunting. Table: CR Equivalencies provides some simple formulas to help you manage these large numbers. When using a large number of identical creatures, this chart can help simplify the math by combining them into one CR, making it easier to find their total XP value. For example, using this chart, four CR 8 creatures (worth 4,800 XP each) are equivalent to a CR 12 creature (worth 19,200 XP).Your first group of 1 Troll, 3 Ogres, and 3 Dire Wolves would be a total CR 9, not 8. The 3 Ogres are +3 for CR 6, same for Dire Wolves, and the CR 5 Troll come to a total of 6,400 XP and not 4,800. The same is true for your next example encounter, only shy of CR 9 by 400 XP.
The chart you're referencing is a simplification of the standard. Their CRs/XP values do not change. It is a simplification in the same way that the divided XP values for parties of X size are imperfect. It's meant to allow you to be lazier. Said chart likewise doesn't really even apply to mixed groups.
The chart you're referencing is a simplification of the standard. Their CRs/XP values do not change. It is a simplification in the same way that the divided XP values for parties of X size are imperfect. It's meant to allow you to be lazier. Said chart likewise doesn't really even apply to mixed groups.
If the math worked out the same and was just a quicker way to arrive at the same numbers, I'd agree. However, they aren't, and I don't.
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It does, most of the time. And the book literally says
Determine the total XP award for the encounter by looking it up by its CR on Table: Experience Point Awards. This gives you an “XP budget” for the encounter. Every creature, trap, and hazard is worth an amount of XP determined by its CR, as noted on Table: Experience Point Awards. To build your encounter, simply add creatures, traps, and hazards whose combined XP does not exceed the total XP budget for your encounter. It's easiest to add the highest CR challenges to the encounter first, filling out the remaining total with lesser challenges.
I swear, you just oppose Ashiel because his name is Ashiel. :s