Kill CR39 Lucifer


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Title says it all. How do you kill this guy


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Ranger 8/Rogue 2/Horizon Walker 10/Mythic Tier 10 Path whatever

Undetectable, dual wielding double barreled pistols.


How many levels do I get? Or how many players do I get?

It doesn't look that hard, because he doesn't appear to have intensify spell and his melee sucks, so the only problem is the save or suck/die spells. Caster level 39 might make the DCs slightly problematic. Once you beat the DCs on his spells he is very weak though except for his summons. Appropriate protections spells could make this very easy. (circle against evil, etc). If I get a 2 player party with 20 levels and 10 mythic tiers then you use the standard Wizard wins initiative and stuns for one round, barbarian hits for millions of damage trick. A solo attempt would be tricky, but doable.


Gather eight hundred 20th level wizards from the multiverse. Make sure they have items / abilities that allow the a +30 to the caster level check for spell resistance to give them a 1 in 20 chance of beating his SR of 50.

Have them all cast "baleful polymorph" at once. It's best if they are diviners and so have a +20 to initiative and auto-roll a 20. Forty should get through the spell resistance, and then in 40 rolls, there is a high percentage Lucifer will roll a one, and be turned into a sloth. Or a platypus. It's all good at that point.

I mean, that's how I'd do it. Lemme know if I missed something.

Cheers.


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Heeeey, while we are at it, why don't we just use the caster level of 1,434,399 as we worked out how to achieve in this thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r6pu?Challenge-Highest-caster-level#1

From there they decided on the frostbite spell or simply transmutation.


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Goddity wrote:

Heeeey, while we are at it, why don't we just use the caster level of 1,434,399 as we worked out how to achieve in this thread: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r6pu?Challenge-Highest-caster-level#1

From there they decided on the frostbite spell or simply transmutation.

*BEEP* *whirrrr* *DING*

LINK ADDED.


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You know I'm going to say it... I'm trying not to... it's hard to resist...

Spoiler:
explosive runes, teehee


If he's on his own plane, you don't. He's a level 19 Cleric/Level 20 Sorcerer who automatically knows your exact location the instant you set foot there.

He'll summon 3d3 ⇒ (1, 1, 3) = 5 Pit Fiends or 6d4 ⇒ (2, 1, 1, 1, 3, 2) = 10 Ice Devils to slow the party down, maybe Gate in some extra baddies for good measure, prepare spells that don't suck, and use the usual high level enemy caster tactics.

He'll probably whittle you down by attrition if nothing else.


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1. Optimize bluff to the point to where you can reliably beat 71 Sense Motive.
2. Pay 51,000 gold to have a soul gem crafted big enough for him via the second option of Trap the Soul.
3. "Oh wow Lucifer I wasn't expecting to see you here. Could I get your autograph or something? Here you can use my pen."
4. Have a trapped Lucifer soul to put on your mantle.
5. Damn it feels good to be a gangster.


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Oh, give someone enough time, they will find at least 10 ways to kill this thing.

The player characters in D&D can seriously become Batman when it comes to planning out encounters.

But unlike Batman, the characters are more than just some normal human with mental issues and a lot of money.


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A character that can automatically confirm critical hits crits with a vorpol weapon and Lucifer misses his fortification chance.


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Nawtyit wrote:
A character that can automatically confirm critical hits crits with a vorpol weapon and Lucifer misses his fortification chance.

Vorpal only activates on a confirmed natural 20 and not just a confirmed crit. But, yes, vorpal would be a potent option.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Buri Reborn wrote:
Nawtyit wrote:
A character that can automatically confirm critical hits crits with a vorpol weapon and Lucifer misses his fortification chance.
Vorpal only activates on a confirmed natural 20 and not just a confirmed crit. But, yes, vorpal would be a potent option.

Player characters aren't the only ones who can come up with tricks to negate crits. Any decent attempt at a CR 39 character will come up with ways to make the usual cheap tricks not work.


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Am I missing something.

He has no immunity to mind affecting. Just Limited wish->Geas the big guy. Stick a geas on him to make him obey your every command. No save either.

The only real problem is penetrating his SR.

Here is a list of stuff a high level character could reasonably have
Karma prayer beads (+4 CL)
Otherworldly kimono(+4 to CL checks)
Orange prism Ioun stone(+1)
Flawed Orange prism ioun stone(+1, yes they stack)
Swift action quickened sure casting (+5)
Dweomer's essence (+5 to SR check)
Piercing Metamagic Gem/Rod(+5 to SR check)
Spell pen/Greater Spell Pen (+4)

Which adds up to a total bonus of
(drum roll)
+29 to the caster's check

add a caster of CL20 and a roll of a natural 1
SR check of 50 minimum

vs SR 50

perfection

There are probably ways to get this even higher.

A level 20 caster just barely manages to guarantee the enslavement of the prince of flies (i.e. no chance of failure ever) with a standard and a swift action.

Right, so a level 20 caster can guarenteed beat lucifer if they are in a position to get their spells off. The only issues left are a)finding lucifer, b)getting to him and c) winning initiative.

b) is easy enough once the caster knows where lucifer is. Timestop with a maximize metamagic gem + wish teleport puts the caster exactly where they want to be, with the opportunity to pull out safely if things don't look good.

If the caster preps for it, they can probably get a +32 to their initiative and with foresight up guarentee that they go first. A build that puts a decent amount of effort can have init in the mid 20s without trying too hard. Dumpsterdiving through all the buffs in the sorcerer/wizard list (and others using UMD if necessary) will probably get the rest of the way. Sufficed to say that c) is not really an issue.

a) I am not so sure about. The biggest issue is if something is giving lucifer communal mind blank (for some stupid reason he doesn't have it himself). Anything else can probably be bypassed by spamming scrying spells enough. Lucifer will get warning though. Not sure if there is an easy approach to this.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you're creating a CR 39 caster monster, and it goes down like a cheap trick to the tricks in this thread, then you've done it wrong.

1. Go Mythic. Mythic is one of those things that should have been left a monster's only tool for the GM. It's one of the few things that can make a solo monster like this survive for more than a round or two if for no other reason than getting two action sets per turn. Part of the build for Lucifer should be 10 ranks of mythic.

2. Think of all the cheap easy tricks to kill something. A CR 39 encounter should thrown them all into the curb. An APL 20 group should have to work for this victory and expect to take casulties in the process. Quite frankly, he should be wiping the floor with them unless they've been some powerful artifacts on loan, and even then it should be tough.


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Snowblind wrote:

Am I missing something.

He has no immunity to mind affecting. Just Limited wish->Geas the big guy. Stick a geas on him to make him obey your every command. No save either.

The Geas better be pretty iron tight as you are dealing with the literal devil. Even then, Lucifer has up to 8 Wish spells per day which he could use to just remove the Geas on himself and then Quicken a spell at you. As you would probably have more Limited Wishes then his Wishes you could theoretically just spam it until it sticks, but you may not be able to survive that long or he could just beat a tactical retreat and then come back buffed and pissed; if he's on not in hell he could just Quicken Dismissal himself. If you were in hell, he could he could just stare you down and call forth the other 9 Arch Devils of Hell with his 1/week ability and let them handle you.

Sovereign Court

If mythic tiers are allowed, it will be a rather short fight. Considering we have people who made a level 20/Tier 10 fighter who can one shot cthulhu (774 hp vs 943 hp for lucifer, believe the fighter was doing 1000+ damage with one swing).


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Eltacolibre wrote:

If mythic tiers are allowed, it will be a rather short fight. Considering we have people who made a level 20/Tier 10 fighter who can one shot cthulhu (774 hp vs 943 hp for lucifer, believe the fighter was doing 1000+ damage with one swing).

So the question should instead be: "How can Lucifer kill a group of level 20/MT 10 PCs?"

That 1/week summon all Archdevils might go a long way toward helping with that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Eltacolibre wrote:

If mythic tiers are allowed, it will be a rather short fight. Considering we have people who made a level 20/Tier 10 fighter who can one shot cthulhu (774 hp vs 943 hp for lucifer, believe the fighter was doing 1000+ damage with one swing).

Mythic should be allowed, but for Lucifer only, especially given the poor way he's built for a CR 39 encounter.

Dark Archive

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LazarX wrote:

1. Go Mythic. Mythic is one of those things that should have been left a monster's only tool for the GM. It's one of the few things that can make a solo monster like this survive for more than a round or two if for no other reason than getting two action sets per turn. Part of the build for Lucifer should be 10 ranks of mythic.

Dunno what you mean "should be" since Lucifer is from Tome of Horrors that was written long before mythic rules were a thing


LazarX wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:

If mythic tiers are allowed, it will be a rather short fight. Considering we have people who made a level 20/Tier 10 fighter who can one shot cthulhu (774 hp vs 943 hp for lucifer, believe the fighter was doing 1000+ damage with one swing).

Mythic should be allowed, but for Lucifer only, especially given the poor way he's built for a CR 39 encounter.

You think he should, but he isn't. We're not debating whether or not he should be modified. We are talking about defeating the Lucifer who's stats are in the original post.

Eltacolibre wrote:
If mythic tiers are allowed, it will be a rather short fight. Considering we have people who made a level 20/Tier 10 Fighter who can one shot Cthulhu (774 hp vs 943 hp for Lucifer, believe the fighter was doing 1000+ damage with one swing).

I believe that just confirms the rumor about Mythic not being playtested well enough to be of much use.

Sovereign Court

chaoseffect wrote:
Eltacolibre wrote:

If mythic tiers are allowed, it will be a rather short fight. Considering we have people who made a level 20/Tier 10 fighter who can one shot cthulhu (774 hp vs 943 hp for lucifer, believe the fighter was doing 1000+ damage with one swing).

So the question should instead be: "How can Lucifer kill a group of level 20/MT 10 PCs?"

That 1/week summon all Archdevils might go a long way toward helping with that.

well if they fight in hell, and he does summon all the archdevils...which funny enough means that it includes Asmodeus, the party will be dead. Well at least if we are using golarion version of Asmodeus being a deity and all. I believe in the frog game universe tho, Asmodeus is still just an archdevil.

But even then, the archdevils would be better built than Lucifer that for sure.


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LazarX wrote:
If you're creating a CR 39 caster monster, and it goes down like a cheap trick to the tricks in this thread, then you've done it wrong.

If you've created a CR 39 anything, then you've done it wrong.


Ashiel wrote:
LazarX wrote:
If you're creating a CR 39 caster monster, and it goes down like a cheap trick to the tricks in this thread, then you've done it wrong.
If you've created a CR 39 anything, then you've done it wrong.

I'm not so sure. That said, regardless of CR, you can't create something that's has infinite contingencies for everything possible trick PCs can throw at you. If that's your goal, I'd question why you made the thing in the first place. Combat should be challenging but capable and dynamic (meaning weird stuff can happen). If you want something more than that, stick with Paizo's advice and just don't stat it. Make it a wholly nonstandard encounter. Forcing a brawl where everything is determined by atk vs. AC is just boring.


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Kill him? No. But I know how to beat him. A simple skill challenge. I notice has has no ranks in the appropriate skill.


Smack him 'til he dies from it?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
pennywit wrote:
Kill him? No. But I know how to beat him. A simple skill challenge. I notice has has no ranks in the appropriate skill.

But that only works in Georgia.


Geas has a casting time of 10 minutes. Good luck with that.


Yeah, I never liked this statblock. It's just a monster with loads of spell casting abilities with more bloat than any other monster on the site. It does nothing interesting.


Buri Reborn wrote:
Nawtyit wrote:
A character that can automatically confirm critical hits crits with a vorpol weapon and Lucifer misses his fortification chance.
Vorpal only activates on a confirmed natural 20 and not just a confirmed crit. But, yes, vorpal would be a potent option.
Ultimate Combat, Samurai class, Ronin "order" wrote:
Chosen Destiny (Ex): At 15th level, the ronin is the master of his own destiny. Whenever the ronin makes a saving throw against a charm or compulsion effect, he may roll twice and take the better result. In addition, once per day, the ronin can treat any one d20 roll as if the result were a natural 20. He must declare the use of this ability before the roll is made.

I agree with Ashiel regarding the ridiculousness of CR 39 monsters. There are plenty of ways to end this encounter, though, if you know what you're facing and what that entails.


It is an interesting point that as a CR39 Lucifer is a tad unimaginative, just alot of spells and high stats. The being able to summon the nine arch Devils is interesting and would make the fight epic, but really that's it. Cthulhu's stat block or the Kaiju make for a more interesting read. Im sure a good DM could make Lucifer pretty interesting though.


A +12 initiative? That's just sad.


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A level one rogue with a sling shouldn't have any problems taking him out.


Just hit him with some suffocation spells. I just read hit stat block and he's got nothing that'll stop that. His regen doesn't even have the tarrasque's "does not ever die from anything" clause.


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Ha, my next thread might be Tarrasque v Lucifer


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Buri Reborn wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
LazarX wrote:
If you're creating a CR 39 caster monster, and it goes down like a cheap trick to the tricks in this thread, then you've done it wrong.
If you've created a CR 39 anything, then you've done it wrong.
I'm not so sure. That said, regardless of CR, you can't create something that's has infinite contingencies for everything possible trick PCs can throw at you. If that's your goal, I'd question why you made the thing in the first place. Combat should be challenging but capable and dynamic (meaning weird stuff can happen). If you want something more than that, stick with Paizo's advice and just don't stat it. Make it a wholly nonstandard encounter. Forcing a brawl where everything is determined by atk vs. AC is just boring.

There's just little (if anything) that I could imagine would justify the scale that such a CR implies. To put this into perspective, it's supposed to be the equivalent of fighting 683.33333333333333333333333333333 pit fiends (which is to say, 683 pit fiends and some leftover XP for traps and/or minions) at the same time. That would be an equivalent encounter.

Unfortunately, most people just make a "big numbers" monster and slap a high CR on it like that means something. Most of the time, all it means is it's a waste of space. You won't use the monster, and if you ever do, it'll be a grossly disappointing encounter when it's all said and down with. Amusingly, his most interesting ability is his summon, but his summon is trivially easy to get around at a much lower level (let him summon, then GTFO for 1 hour, laugh about it a bit, then come back to fight him; he can't use it for another week now).

Lucifer: "Heh, sorry guys, false alarm. Some pesky adventurers showed up and I jumped the gun again,"
Archdevils: "S'cool man, it happens. See you again next week,"
Lucifer: "Yeah, cheers. Sorry, I guess I'll just summon a few pit fiends next time. We still on for bowling?"
Archdevil: "Yeah, we're challenging heaven next week. Bring your game-face,"
Lucifer: "Ah damn it. I hate it when we face off against them. Michael is going to pick on me again,"
Archdevil: "You gotta let it go man. Yes, we know he can smite you with his flaming sword of awesomeness,"
Lucifer: "Yeah but it's not just that he can, it's the fact that solars are the most powerful angels in existence, and yet Michael whips my ass every time, so he pokes fun of me for being CR 39,"
Archdevil: "Yeah, that's true...I guess the guy that wrote your stats screwed up, huh?"
Lucifer: "Yeah...it's embarassing,"


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Unassuming Local Guy wrote:
Ha, my next thread might be Tarrasque v Lucifer

Given that a Solar can curbstomp the Tarrasque (as well as any mid-level cleric plus a high level martial character), I think that might be a short thread.


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Arturus Caeldhon wrote:
Geas has a casting time of 10 minutes. Good luck with that.

Wish makes it a standard action, get on that tech bro


Cape of Feinting on your level 7 Swashbuckler... he spends his STANDARD action to Daze Lucifer... that means Lucifer can't take actions.

At all.

So... you just gotta get your level 7 Swashbuckler within melee range. A well researched plane shift might do it? Second caster with a readied greater teleport?

Drop swashbuckler on Lucifer... then attack CR 39 critter with pointy sticks and smothering pillows.

Lets be jerks.

A commoner with a holy, silver dagger. Lets give the commoner a STR of 7.

We will need probably 40 or so of these little losers (only hitting on a natural 20)... give them blinkback belts so they can throw their daggers...

It's gonna take a while, but the Swashbuckler is the key.

You could try to build a super character to take him down, but I would use this.


heck a lvl 20 inspired blade swashbuckler blows all his panache to do double precise strike damage+ and auto crit with inspired strike and then x3 crits with his rapier that auto confirm at lvl 20 if you knew you were only getting in this single combat you could easily do 1k damage with that combo


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LazarX wrote:
pennywit wrote:
Kill him? No. But I know how to beat him. A simple skill challenge. I notice has has no ranks in the appropriate skill.
But that only works in Georgia.

But now that I think about it, it would be kind of awesome for a level 20/mythic tier 10 bard with Display of Charisma to face off against an evil outsider in a music battle.

"Asmodeus, our wizard, cleric, rogue, and fighter have fallen against your infernal power. But not even you can overcome ... THE POWER OF COUNTRY MUSIC!!!!"


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Unless I'm missing something, you could do worse than spamming a lot of Supernatural abilities. Slumber hex, maybe?


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I wonder if you could super drum up Chains of Light on him. No SR. Paralysis, enough time to take him out. The question is how high can you get the DC, and perhaps hit it with persistent metamagic


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The thing here is, any Schroedinger's Wizard tactics you can come up with, he can do back.

Prepared caster monsters are not limited by what is by default written in their statblock. You are at liberty to change them to something better for the purposes of whatever fight you're after.

He has access to the Cleric and Sorcerer lists both up to 9th level spells, and effectively infinite wealth.

You're telling me you can't find some way to use that to crush any tactic the PCs can come up with?

Shadow Lodge

He also is the boss of an infinity of devils. His personal summons are just that...his personal summons. By no means does that mean he can't order another 300 pit fiends to attack as well.


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Here's what I do.

I get a level 20 bard, mythic tier 10.

I max out Charisma. I get a headband of alluring Charisma +6. This should give me a Cha of around 40.

I max out Perform (Comedy). I take Skill Focus (Perform [Comedy]) and Prodigy (Perform (Comedy))

Between skill points, feats, and my Cha bonus, I should have a Perform (Comedy) skill bonus of +47.

I take Versatile Performance to let my Comedy skill substitute for Bluff or Intimidate.

I take Display of Charisma, which gives me +20 on Cha skill rolls if I spend a point of mythic power.

Finally, I grab a ring of three wishes. I mutter to the ring, "I wish for this plan to work!!!"

And then, I review my bonuses:

D20 +47 (skill bonus) +20 (Display of Charisma) +1d12 (surge).

I yell:

"Hey, Lucifer, Asmodeus just said Yo Mama so fat, that even Orcus said, 'Dayuuuum.' You gonna take that from him?"

Then I hope like hell that my D20+67+1d12 Bluff (or maybe Intimidate) roll beats Lucifer's +71 Sense Motive modifier. Then, I find a good seat to watch them fight each other.


Unassuming Local Guy wrote:
Ha, my next thread might be Tarrasque v Lucifer

I'll eat Lucifer for breakfast and pick my armored teeth with the bones of his summoned arch devils...


If players are going to be mythic, then I think he should get mythic abilities like demon lord's get while on Malefacta.


So, yeah, I know this thread is about the Lucifer as he is already statted. But I learned a long time ago, decades actually, that anything this big is much better served by using a different set of rules.

Anything on this scale should be using The Primal Order and using Primal Energy instead of mundane mortal magic - unless we're thinking Lucifer is just a super-charged mortal guy? Of course he isn't. He's the top-dog in Hell. He has worshipers. Even if he doesn't have as many worshipers as Saranrae, he still has them. He's a divine entity.

He's a primal power of the metaverse.

He should transcend mortal power and be infused with primal energy. Magical power that only gods and other divine, primal entities can control. Energy that can completely trump and destroy all normal magic.

Mortals fighting the Head Honcho of Hell should stack up like chihuahuas fighting a lion - it's not a fair fight, not even close, because the lion operates on a level that the chihuahuas cannot even come close to achieving.

And so should it be with Lucifer.


This is Lucifer post-defeat by Asmodeus and after having lost most of his power, however.

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