Ok I have posted several times about a Shackled City Group. We are level 3 and being small DM decided to add gestalt so character rebuild going on now. It's been months since we played so really the party make up is lost to me. I am currently a suli turned dragonborn paladin of Bahamut. He is a melee monster and has the view that the only legitimate authority is Bahamut/Io. I have a high Charisma, Strength, and Constitution. Using Pathfinder/3pp and 3.5 material, he is going to prestige Grey Guard. How do I turn him into the intimidating hand of the dragon gods? I have the Paladin side golf the gestalt figure being a 50/50 Paladin/Grey Guard. For more help he uses a Large Flying Blade via Monkey Grip and sits in heavy piecemail armor. The more dragon you can make him the better it is. Currently using the Chosen One archetype with a Mauler Archeoraptoryx familiar. He is going to be the Judge Dredd type but with more righteous vindication. He is impatient and rash but genuinely kind hearted.
Ah well. I figured he might extend it to Dragonborn since they don't actually exist in PF.
Not really a lot of dragon-themed stuff that you can realistically go for and is also actually helpful. Bloodrager doesn't help you a whole lot, though the theme fits. Grabbing an arcane caster for Disciple requires a pretty drastic rework of where you are now due to the whole armor thing and general stat MADness. More full BAB is pretty useless, mechanically.
Hrm. If you don't mind needing more Wis, the Warpriest could work. Grab Good or Lawful as one of your blessings, and at higher levels you can summon a Gold Dragon as a mount. That's some nice thematics, and swift action buffs are never out of place.
Really want to avoid being taken into the healer/buffer role. Control and damage are the goals. Because of cool DM as long as it doesn't violate the code I wrote he can do it. So think Old Testament God as far as what the Paladin is allowed. (This includes torture and genocide but under extreme circumstances)
If it is gestalt why not choose dragon blooded sorc/dragon disciple as his second classes? Or just dragon blooded sorc 1/ Something else/dragon disciple.
There are enough sorc spells without somatic components so wearing armor isn't that much of a problem.
The something else might be:
- shapeshifter ranger (Use natural attacks to appear more dragon like)
- feral hunter (again the visual aspect of feral focus might enhance your style and is versatile as hell)
Other options:
- Oracle. Fits your stats, no problem with armor and some mysteries/revelations are nice. My suggestion would be flame oracle with the spirit guide archetype. Get cinder dance and fire breath revelations for greater mobility and a dragon breath.
- Dragon bloodline steelblood bloodrager (Bloodrager may be lawful, rage is always good in melee, dragon goodies and more maneuverability while wearing heavy armor) -> may later become dragon disciple
How could I use the Oracle or sorcerer line for control?
I realize you are being serious, but what have you never seen a full arcane caster played before? Nothing is better at control. Need very high cha for sorcerer though or some feats. Also awesome self buff spells, such as turning yourself into a dragon eventually for +10 to strength and other great bonuses.
Sorcerer and Oracle are very good control casters. Sorcerers can also be good at polymorphing. Form of the Dragon spells would probably be thematically appropriate. Metamagic like Rime, Toppling, Sickening, and Dazing are the key here as they can be applied to a variety of spells. Dazing is widely considered an overpowered condition simply because nothing is immune to it.
Bard would also work as they have no alignment restrictions anymore, and it will favor reflex and get access to the Dragon Disciple prestige class. You mentioned not wanting to buff though so you might want to avoid it because of the expectations it carries.
Pick controlly spells? Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, the Pit line, Grease, etc.
Oracle over Sorcerer for you, probably. Nature would be ideal mechanically for that lovely Cha-to-AC-and-CMD. Sorcerer offers a more draconic feel with the bloodline and has better control options but suffers from the whole casting in armor bit.
Warpriest isn't really locked into the buff role, beyond spending swift actions to buff yourself. Since you're not losing out on action economy to do that, buff -> full attack is a thing, and well... that's better damage pretty much by definition than nobuff -> full attack. They're not as great at control, but more action-efficient. So, trade-offs.
I always liked the idea of a Paladin Bloodrager. If you wanted, both have Archetypes to remove their spells for a few other gains. Defintely a good combo for you.
I have mostly seen players use Sorcerers as straight blasters never seen any real battlefield control. Actually ever...always been in groups that like rp then when combat comes just do max damage and move
I have mostly seen players use Sorcerers as straight blasters never seen any real battlefield control. Actually ever...always been in groups that like rp then when combat comes just do max damage and move
People tend to like them more for blasting because they put down better numbers on attack spells than the Wizard.
But they also put down better numbers on summoning spells (Abyssal Bloodline, 15th level ability), on enchantment spells (Fey bloodline arcana) or on all kinds of other things. You can build a Sorcerer to do just about anything, blasting is just one option.
I have mostly seen players use Sorcerers as straight blasters never seen any real battlefield control. Actually ever...always been in groups that like rp then when combat comes just do max damage and move
Sorcerers tend to specialize more than Wizards because of the limited spells known and the bloodlines pushing Sorcerers into specific builds. Most people specialize for blasting because most people are bad at playing arcane casters.
Ok so for sorcerer the choice is obvious, Draconic bloodline into Dragon Disciple. However my armor hinders a out all of the class. Oracle doesn't lose out with my armor but to look Draconic I am stuck with my least favorite energy type, fire. Also the most commonly resisted. Polymorphing is cool but it kinda negates alot of my choices on the paladin/combat side of things. If I go Draconic Bloodrager into DD do the wings stay constant or only during rage? Or could Sorcerer 1/Fighter x/Dragon Disciple work giving me more specialization with my flying blade? Are there any classed paizo or 3pp that encourage an intimidating build? And I looked at Hunter but it requires neutral alignment so it's a no go
How does mutagenic Mauler x/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple X sound for the other side of the coin? Taking discoveries to make my mutagen even better or is there a Draconic mutagen that would make taking DD pointless?
Ok so exact archetypes for Paladin side until I go Grey Guard Chosen one and Warrior of Holy Light. I like the familiar idea and DM said she will let Grey Guard stack for familiar level since it already stacks for Lay on Hands. I like this because it does keep my book keeping down as far as spell casting and definitely cancels the call for me being a healer. Now I am looking at Mutation Warrior/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple for the other end, minimize the arcane aspect of it, but also looking at the Direlock (Predator) class because while this archetype forgoes spellcasting it gives me a freaking DIRE animal companion. This would allow me at level 7 a wyrmling familiar with the mauler archetype, and a dire reptile or dinosaur animal companion with me being a dragonborn. Might not be making me more draconic but the idea of leading two draconic beasts into battle while being slightly draconic is nice.
How bad does Arcane spell fail really hurt if spells are more of a back up rather than a primary means of attack? Say I open with a battle field control spell and then rush into the fray and just rip everything to shreds with my two-hander? Then if I get Dragon Disciple I could do the same but then abuse flyby attack, or would it be smater to go Mutation Warrior and just use the Eldritch Heritage line to get the resistances, flight, etc. using all the bonus feats a fighter gets? I see one combo I like for mook control but it uses 2 4th level slots. Wall of Force + CloudKill while I melee on the BBEG. seriously some help here would be great because these are my toss ups
I think a look at a bloodrager is worthwhile and would work better than sorc. The bloodlines power up at different levels and the draconic bloodrager gets the important bloodline powers (breath weapon, wings) faster. Admittedly spells are much less for the bloodrager but if spells are a backup then the bloodrager should work better. This is theory on my part though, as I haven't seen a bloodrager in action.
Here he is, mostly. Plan on having an Archeoraptoryx familiar and haven't chosen all of my spells
Van Hohenhiem:
Van Hohenhiem
Suli Dragonborn Paladin(Chosen One;Warrior of the Holy Light)/Wildblooded Draconic Sorcerer 3
LG Medium Outsider(Native) Humanoid(Dragonblood)
Init+2 SensesLow-light Vision, Perception +8
_____________
Edit: Forgot traits are unscathed, heirloom weapon, and mark of the beast as the campaign trait have resist energy 7 for electricity and cold being a dual born suli
If you really want the Wings, one level of Sorcerer + 10 of DD + Robe of Arcane Heritage gets you there. That said, so long as you're good with the armor loss Sorcerer is one of the strongest options you can take.
You'll probably want to take Magical Knack as a trait or skip out on a few Paladin levels to keep your Sorcerer casting maximized thusly:
etc. You lose 2 BAB (meh), a Mercy (very meh) your seventh Smite Evil (slightly less meh), and your capstone (okay that one's kinda cool). In exchange you cast at full power.
If you do pick a Robe of Arcane Heritage, keep in mind that once you get to level 16 there's no point in not picking up a Skill Focus in a Knowledge and going Loremaster for the last four levels-- you get your feat back with interest as long as your Int is high enough. That's nice for converting a Bloodline feat (as Skill Focus: Knowledge (Arcana) is on the list) into a generic feat.
Incidentally, why are you Wildblooded? Linnorm's change is pretty useless; might as well keep your Claws and semi-useful arcana.
Wildblooded because the claws are useless to this build. My progression was Paladin5/Sorcerer5
Grey Guard 6/Dragon Disciple 6
Grey Guard 4/Sorcerer 4
Paladin5/Sorcerer5
Take practiced spell caster to increase caster level by 4 so the DD loss doesn't hurt
Only thing I could think to do otherwise is when you have the DD switch sides take Abjurant Champion to keep caster level and BAB up
You actually get Claw/Claw/Bite once Disciple kicks in, which makes them very viable backup weapons... and certainly better than the useless ray of the Linnorm. The Linnorm's arcana is also absolutely terrible. Claws are useful for situations like getting grappled, even if you don't depend on them, while you should probably never even think about the Linnorm's ranged attack.
Why are you taking Disciple to 6? There's no reason to not take at least two more levels, since it grants quite literally everything Sorcerer does until level 9. Disciple 4 and Disciple 8 are the break points.
If you're taking Disciple to less than nine, don't take Practiced Spellcaster. Magical Knack will do the exact same thing. Unscathed is really, really forgettable and easy to replace (it does almost nothing, to be honest-- the only thing that's noticeable is that if you put it on Fire Resistance 5 you can set yourself on fire without penalty), but even if you find another really good trait... burn the feat that you would spend on Practiced Spellcaster on Extra Traits.
Disciple 8 is not a full prestige class and still objectively better than Disciple 6/Sorcerer 2, under literally any criteria.
Though that does bring up a point. Under Gestalt RAW you can only take one prestige class at a time. I've heard tell of a lot of GMs ignoring that, mine included, but it is a thing to clear with your GM first.
She cleared it. Just don't want to get overly silly. I mean it's a party of 3 for Shackled City so some silly required. And seeing as melee is my focus the absolute amazing casting isn't priority as much as being Draconic
Have you considered a Skald? They can cast in medium armor so if you use mithral plate there is no spell failure. You also get the ability to boost the rest of the party and a lesser version of the barbarians rage. You can also use it to become a dragon disciple without having to be a sorcerer.
She cleared it. Just don't want to get overly silly. I mean it's a party of 3 for Shackled City so some silly required. And seeing as melee is my focus the absolute amazing casting isn't priority as much as being Draconic
... This confuses me.
If melee is your priority wouldn't you want +1 natural armor from Disciple 8? And if being Draconic is your priority wouldn't you want the Form of the Dragon SLA? The +2 Int is gravy.
Not going Draconic Disciple 10, I can understand. But I'm horrendously confused by what you said is matching up with stopping at six.
Sorry for confusion I can see 8 being better.but with your build suggestion I lose out on some melee things. Which is the point of my build. The only way I see keeping full caster and BAB is another prestige which would be ridiculous but would skyrocket my Ac
*Shrug* The suggested build was something I called out as an alternative to Magical Knack. It's still probably superior to taking Paladin to 20, because the only "melee things" you really lose is one point of BAB, but the point of it was to keep caster level up more than anything else.
That one's a debatable choice. But Disciple 8... really isn't. Those last two levels are better than two Sorcerer levels in every way imaginable.
EDIT: If you are firm on Unscathed so Practiced Spellcaster is definitively being taken over Knack, drop one level in Oracle (Nature) for Cha-to-AC so you can continue to frontline effectively despite lacking armor now. Just a thought.
I was thinking of not dropping my armor but rather enchanting it and using special materials to mitigate spell fail. Losing a Smite and some BAB is important to me because of past experience with dipping. Don't confuse my counters with a lack of gratitude I appreciate all the help I just don't want to be the DM bane here...she is a fun DM and I don't want to make it all crash on her...because technically I could take the 3 levels in Half-dragon and get massive boost but that's just a Lil much
As to GM-baning... from my experience in the matter, that's going to depend more on your spell list than any minor picks you make here. I have a gestalt Sorcerer in a game where I generally optimize higher than the rest of the group (by dint of actually bothering to plan when the rest of them... pretty much don't at all. They don't enjoy the build process, I do). But outshining everybody isn't fun. So, I'm plotting a decidedly suboptimal spell list-- not a single Summon spell, Time Stop only at level 20, Wish only because it's a Bloodline spell, etc. She has some of the basic staples-- Haste, Fly, Heroism, sure. But she has a huge arsenal of Cold spells, and I've done what I can to make that viable, because that's where the flavor is-- even though there are better things I could do with seven feat slots and a spell known at basically every level if I really wanted to upgrade her game. But I don't, because I appreciate my GM and my party.
So yeah: be careful with your spell picks and you shouldn't have to worry about overshadowing the rest of your party or breaking your GM.
could do barbarian and get those dragon totem rage powers. then get other powers you can make thematically dragon related.
I personally made something like this in a non-gestalt by being human getting racial heritage(Kobold) and then scaled disciple. 1 level of oracle and 3 levels of fighter, 1 level of ranger, then dragon disciple.
with yours, suli, I find really limiting...
also in regards to GM bane, it shouldn't really ever be that bad, if you make the other members as optimized as you then she simply has to up the CR of encounters to keep things together.
Well was definitely looking at control type spells and leaving date toy weapon. Only player I can really help out is my fiance but she is keeping it tight but alluded to either 3.5 Warmage/Skald or Magus (the magus and Warmage both cast in armor and while Cha determines spells and DCs the Int adds extra damage) the other guy emailed me saying he is doing Alchemist/healer type, so not sure how it's going to work for him, probably high mental stats and using mutagens for melee. So yeah...what's is a good control type spell list for level 3? I have shield and mage armor was my bonus spell because I am still melee guy. Was thinking color spray and either grease or obscuring mist. In 3.5 there are feats to learn extra spells or get some unique meta magics with spell like abilities as well. Going with blue dragon bloodline because those are my favorite so probably going to pick up born of twin thunders so all my lightning spells do sonic damage and deafen targets as well
