Best feats for a Two Handed weapon Paladin


Advice


I know to get power attack and furious focus bit I'm not sure what others. My paladin is starting at level 7. Any other suggestions are appreciated as well.


Improved sunder/greater can be awsome if you can get yourself an adamantium greatsword. Other feats I would suggestion are toughness, cleave, the step up tree (step up, following step, step up and strike)


Fey Foundling. Extra Lay on Hands. Lunge.


Extra lay on hands is good if you go the greater mercy / ultimate mercy route, lung can be critical depending on your game and honestly I don't find fey foundling that good.


Declindgrunt wrote:
Extra lay on hands is good if you go the greater mercy / ultimate mercy route, lung can be critical depending on your game and honestly I don't find fey foundling that good.

Fey Foundling is effectively changing your Lay on Hands dice from d6s to d10s. This is a very good thing. It adds 2 per die, not 2 per heal.

Lunge is a good option. Depending on your CHA and DEX, you might want Noble Scion (Scion of War)


Fey Foundling is probably the single best feat for paladins that you could possibly take, if you want to make you paladin nigh unkillable.

Swift action healing yourself for +2 hp per die of healing with Lay on Hands. It's really awesome for survivability.

Furious Focus is so so in my opinion.


My Self wrote:
Declindgrunt wrote:
Extra lay on hands is good if you go the greater mercy / ultimate mercy route, lung can be critical depending on your game and honestly I don't find fey foundling that good.
Fey Foundling is effectively changing your Lay on Hands dice from d6s to d10s. This is a very good thing. It adds 2 per die, not 2 per heal.

That's correct, though it's slightly better than nd10 in the worst case scenarios, and slightly worse in the best case scenarios. At level 7, Fey Foundling will boost your healing from each LoH by about 60% on average, and will increase your minimum (worst case scenario) by 200%, from 3 HP to 9 HP.

Extra LoH becomes better in conjunction with Fey Foundling.

At level 7, using all uses of your baseline LoH will heal on average (16 CHA for 6 total uses): 63 HP. With extra LoH, you get 94.5 HP.

At level 7, using all uses of your LoH with Extra LoH and Fey Foundling will heal on average: 148 HP. That's a difference of ~10 CLW casts from just having Extra LoH, and a difference of ~15 from no feats at all, which makes a big difference in your ability to not soak up all of your caster's healing (or in burning through wands of CLW), and in your staying power in a tough battle where you're burning a LoH every round.

Scarab Sages

If you really want to go overboard on self healing, Fey Foundling + a dip of unbreakable fighter to allow you to easily pick up Fast Healer to add your Con bonus on top of the +2 per die from Fey Foundling.

Silver Crusade

It really depends on what you want your paladin to do.

If you're just shooting for massive damage, then go with Power Attack, Furious Focus, Weapon Focus, Improved Crit, etc to make sure you hit more and harder.

If you want to control the battlefield, pick up some combat maneuver feats, and maybe a reach weapon for tripping anyone who tries to get adjacent to you. Bonus points if you can talk a caster ally into walking around with a wand of Enlarge Person for you, but expect to buy the wand with your own cash.

If you want to focus more on healing (yourself and/or your allies), then stuff like Extra Lay on Hands, Greater Mercy, and Ultimate Mercy are the way to go.

The real question is what you want to do with the character. Regardless, Fey Foundling is always a good choice, as explained already.


Fey Foundling, Greater Mercy and Ultimate Mercy (possibly with Extra Lay On Hands) are all excellent - as is getting Bracers of the Merciful Knight when you can afford them (higher levels but adding 2 extra dice to your lay on hands as well as 2 additional uses is exceptional - my PFS Paladin/Bard/Dragon Disciple can self heal for a massive amount each day (I think it averages to over 300HP at level 10 - he has a very high CHA as well). And don't forget the amazing Paladin only spell Hero's Defiance (allows a use of Lay on Hands when you are dropped below 0 as an immediate action with 1 extra d6 of healing.

I don't have Furious Focus on that character - so far he rarely has trouble hitting enemies when it counts - but it is a good feat to help dish out massive damage especially when not smiting.

Personally I also like Paladin's who take some feats that give them some additional out of combat utility or special flavor. You didn't mention what race your character is (if you are human you have some extra options - Focused Study trades out your bonus 1st level feat for three skill focus feats at 1, 8 and 16th level. Depending on the skill focus you pick at 1st level you could also explore the Eldritch Heritage feat chain which might both give you the potential for some nifty STR bonuses or other abilities and give you a lot of background material to work with for your paladin (Eldrritch Heritage Abyssal is mechanically very solid and screams out for a backstory for a Paladin).

Paladins get so many abilities as a class mostly feats are truly bonuses for the Paladin. I would use them to give yourself some unique features and abilities - if you go the self-healing route you become an amazing tank in the battlefield (assuming your CHA is high - which lets you also have great saves, lots of Paladin spells etc)


Ditch Furious Focus. It only applies to the attack that you are going to hit with anyway.


I recently became aware of the Hurtful + Cornugun feat combination from another thread. If a Paladin has already has power attack and a high intimidate skill check already taking these feats are almost a must. Heck who doesn't what another attack at full bab. Combine this with Haste and make a full round attack action, you are getting 3 attacks at full BAB a round.


What are your race/stats?


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just a note - the hurtful / cornugun smash combo takes a swift action - Paladins tend to have good uses for their swift actions (self-healing, smiting, casting Litany spells etc) - adding an extra attack is definitely also a good use but something to keep in mind as you do have to watch your actions carefully (and don't forget that if you say used Hero's Defiance before your turn you don't have a swift action on that next turn)


Consider playing a half orc so you can pick up Ferocious Resolve. Combine that with Fey Foundling and they have to kill you to stop you. And killing a Paladin with Fey Foundling is pretty hard. Corngun Smash works well for this character. Just make sure to pick up bully to get intimidate as a class skill.


I'm either going to be a human for the extra feat or an angel blooded aasimar for the bonus to Cha and Str and darkvision (without Celestial Resistance, DM deemed it too OP lol)


I'd say stick with human, and pick up Fey Foundling and Power Attack at first.

Unsanctioned Knowledge is a bit of a debated topic on the forums, overall it's a good feat if you want access to more spells or if someone else in the group lacks Haste.

Improved critical is actually a wasted feat if your Divine bond is with a weapon, because you can make it keen at 5th level.

Greater Mercy works well for extra healing dice.


My group consists of a barbarian, a rogue and another player that has yet to join and is undecided. I'm considering either the paladin or a magus because the campaign is melee intensive but the party is in desperate need of a caster of some kind.


If you have the skill points and a trait to spare, Cornugon Smash and Dreadful Carnage (and if possible, Signature Skill) are great in-combat, potentially great flavor for a Paladin, and Intimidate in general gives you another option to use outside of combat.


My abilities will probably be
Str 16 (+2 human) = 18
Dex 12
Con 14
Int. 12
Wis 7
Cha 16
Then I still have to determine where to put my point for level 4.


I play a Paladin Dragon Disciple which is a very complex build to pull off but is a LOT of fun, mechanically very strong and would allow you to be a caster & a paladin

You can build it in a LOT of different ways. I personally went Bard so I could take almost entirely spells without Somatic components (so no worries about arcane casting penalties while wearing heavy armor) but you can use any spontaneous arcane casting class (Bard, Summoner or Sorcerer). Sorcerer works well if you want to cast a fair amount however you will have to watch arcane failure chances (or focus on either spells you cast before you don armor, using mage armor only or other approaches).

My build was 4 levels of Paladin, one of Bard and then the rest Dragon Disciple. This limits your casting a bit but in exchange you get:

- Divine & Arcane casting (Paladin spells + Bard or Sorcerer spells)
- Abilities of the Draconic bloodline
- inherent STR bonuses

and a LOT of other nice toys. If you either can be a crafter or have one in your party eventually you will want Bracers of the Merciful knight to get your lay on hands up. Your BAB will be a bit lower than a pure paladin and you don't get paladin's bond or other higher level abilities.

But in exchange you get a lot of flexibility - and with the right archetypes and items you are an amazing tank + highly versatile party member (you can use most wands, if you pump up your CHA you get a LOT of bonuses - to saves, to lay on hands, to both your paladin and your arcane spells etc)

Arcane Strike becomes a fun feat (I went with an archetype of Bard that gave it to me for free) - if you don't have another use for a swift action in a turn it becomes a nice boost to your attacks (as does the draconic claws & bite - either as an option if you don't have weapons available or as a secondary bite attack if you are wielding your primary two-handed weapon. When smiting every extra attack is really good - layering on arcane strike as well really helps - and your smite attack bonus will help offset the secondary attack penalty for your bite.

As I said this can rapidly become a very complex build with lots of limited times per day resources to track (since you have basically three classes all giving you different things) plus multiple spells to choose. But it also fits very well into most parties serving many roles.

And though skills are not your primary focus (and you will need to spend many of them on the requirements for Dragon Disciple including the language requirement) your likely very high CHA will allow you to likely be a good party face or at least assist the party face. In PFS my character is a Nagaji which got Draconic for free and also is very flavorful for Dragon Disciple.


Actually Improved Critical is a very good feat for a paladin because it stacks with Bless weapon. Use a Falchion and when attacking evil creatures you will be getting more critical hits than you can imagine. Auto confirming a critical on a threat range of 15-20 means a lot of damage. There are better uses for divine bond than keen.


You mustn't sunder! Down that path lies darkness...

(3e players will get the joke :P )

Grand Lodge

1- Fey Foundling
H- Power attack
3- Furious Focus or Weapon Focus (I like weapon focus beyond Level 6+)
5- Unsanctioned Knowledge (Keep that Int @ 13)
7- Lunge
9- Improved Critical- Falchion

Take the Trait Dangerously Curious and Pump up that UMD skill. Thanks being Human and a 13 Int.

Divine Bond your Falchion.

Enjoy Laying the Smack Down.

I do not Like Greater/Ultimate Mercy as it requires so many LoH uses....after the first few fights you might as well call them wasted feats. And also what are you a healer or a Destroyer? Leave that Ultimate Mercy crap to a player who wants to play a Band aid. Not you.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
There are better uses for divine bond than keen.

Not many considering he doesn't even qualify for the feat yet.

Still, I wouldn't recommend taking the feat until later levels when you have enough bonus from Divine Bond to get your weapon maxed to +5 and give it Holy.

Really though, having the feat only helps in situations where you can't prebuff.

Grand Lodge

^

It also helps on the Fly to help overcome situational fights.

Fighting Trolls: Give it Flaming to kill the Regeneration

Fighting a White Dragon: Again Fire is good

The best I can tell you is get a +1 Adamantine Falchion

Beyond that it is really up to you how to proceed with your weapon of Doom. If an AP gives you a lot of a certain type of Creatures then Bane might be an Obvious Choice as it gives huge bonuses to fighting that certain creature.

Remember +1 Adamantine is a Great Base Weapon. Grabbing a MW cold Iron weapon as back up is nice to have as well incase disarmed or having trouble passing Cold Iron DR. But eventually you will blow through that DR with your Main weapon.

Another great option if you have a reliable Arcane or DIvine Caster is Spell Storing...a Highly overlooked way of giving your Caster an extra offensive spell a round. And depending on the Spell (Vampiric TOuch) Give yourself a Combat boost as well.

But remember this:

Keen does not work with Bless weapon....But Improved Critical does. Typically never take a feat that you can mimic with Gold...but on a Paladin the Feat is worth more than the Keen enchantment because it works along with Bless for Auto Confirms.


You could also "spend" feats on Variant Multiclassing into Barbarian. No alignment restrictions on VMC outside of some very specific cases.


Brilliant energy, flaming burst, holy, merciful and speed all seem to be very useful. Admittedly they are situational, but the paladin can choose which one he uses each time. Most of them do require higher than a +1 bonus, but at lower level often the best use is simply to add bonus to your already magic weapon. Keen is good before you can pick up improved critical. Flaming Burst on a falchion with improved Critical and bless weapon is actually pretty good.


What spells what you recommend for Unsanctioned Knowledge?


Greater Mercy is really really good for a Fey Foundling - most of the time you will be getting an average of 5.5hp per lay on hands use (to yourself) - personally I think it is vastly better for a Paladin than Furious Focus. Ultimate Mercy is a bit more campaign specific - if your party doesn't have a cleric and you don't have a source of free raise deads in your campaign Ultimate Mercy is hard to beat. It would mostly be something used between events in your campaign - i.e. raising dead companions and player characters. Occasionally it might also be used to raise an NPC.

In any case it is a feat that likely saves the party money - but it is very dependent on the specifics of your group and DM. I have it on my PFS Dragon Disciple because it is never unappreciated by any random table I sit down with to play. However it is also perfectly reasonable to argue that in PFS since you can get raise dead from NPCs it is a bit less useful. (I have only used it once in a PFS scenario and that was for an NPC not a player character).

On the other hand if you have Fey Foundling I think Greater Mercy is a feat you will value every single game session - the times your mercies are applicable are generally speaking fairly rare (and when they are you are likely using Lay On Hands specifically for the mercy not the healing) but every other time when you are healing yourself it is another full die of healing - which makes the Paladin even more of a tank in combat. At level 9 & 10 my dragon disciple (who isn't a full Paladin but has bracers of the merciful knight) self heals for 5d6+10 hp most rounds - 6d6+12 if hero's defiance is triggered. If he were a full paladin with the bracers of the merciful knight he would be healing for 7d6+14 at level 9, 8d6+16 at level 10 and another 1d6+2 with hero's defiance. That's an average of nearly 39hp at level 9 or 44hp at level 10. That's very meaningful swift action healing at those levels.

(and yes this is as much due to the Bracers of the Merciful Knight as it is due to Greater Mercy - the combination is basically letting you heal as a paladin 6 levels higher than you actually are - i.e. your lay on hands more than keeps pace with average damage for your level)

Personally I love playing the Paladin tank - when you get your smites you also kill things - but when you don't you are still having a huge impact on the battlefield - soaking up damage for your allies.

Silver Crusade

Agreed with Rycaut. Greater Mercy is a great feat by itself, especially when combined with Fey Foundling.

If you want to be able to raise people from the dead for free on days when you're not adventuring, then Ultimate Mercy is good, too. But as pointed out by Fruian Thistlefoot, you aren't going to use it the same day that you need your Lay on Hands for other things. But again, that's not the point. The point is saving the 5k gold that you'd spend on diamond dust for a normal Raise Dead.


Aelas Morgan wrote:
What spells what you recommend for Unsanctioned Knowledge?

Depends on what the party already has going for it. Divine Power and/or Dimension Door make great 4th level slot options (the latter opens up the Dimensional Dervish feats). If no one else has it, pick up Haste for sure. Shield of Faith can be useful, as can Wrath, and I am partial to Bladed Dash. There are more good options though, those are just my favorites.


Another possibility for a high-level feat is Divine Interference. You won't qualify until level 13, but it can be worth taking just to make the DM reroll natural 20s against you or your allies.

Eldritch Heritage (Orc) pays off nicely at high levels: The inherent bonus to Strength is higher than you could normally get (+6 vs +5), and you can then put that Wish money into CHA or CON instead. Power of Giants lets you get Righteous Might after all. Touch of Rage and Fearless unfortunately don't do much for you, unless you're playing a race with light sensitivity.

As for good choices for Unsanctioned Knowledge:

(Bard/Inquisitor/Cleric 4) Freedom of Movement is so good that it's worth having multiple party members know how to cast it.

(Bard 1) Timely Inspiration can be a good use of an Immediate Action if you see an ally fail an important saving throw, fail to confirm a crit, etc. by just 1 or 2.

(Inquisitor 4) Battlemind Link is great if there's another melee character in the party.

(Bard 4) Dimension Door is very useful generally, and opens up the Dimensional Agility feat line at high levels. It is one of the few ways in which you can move and full attack in the same round, however it will not come online until level 17, and it will use up your level 13, 15, and 17 feats.

(Inquisitor 1) Litany of Weakness, as far as I know, hasn't been hit with the "Will Negates" nerfbat yet. And it's not on the Paladin list.

(Bard 2) Mirror Image is an excellent improvement to your defense.


Timely inspiration is a good spell but has some odd aspects - one reading of the spell is that though it is a level 1 spell it doesn't actually do anything until you have a caster level of 5 (which is odd but not impossible - just very strange for a level 1 spell).

Also it only works for Attack rolls or Skill Checks - not saving throws.

By the time you take unsanctioned knowledge this may be less of an issue - but something to consider. I would also note that Paladins do have a lot of uses for their swift actions (litany spells, self-healing, smiting etc)

That said there are a bunch of good uses for Unsanctioned Knowledge - though I will also note that one of the big advantages of Paladin (like a Cleric) is you can prepare entirely different spells each day - that flexibility is something you should explore and leverage.

(and in some cases a spell like Paladin's Sacrifice may be better - 2nd level so you won't have as many - and best if you are a fey foundling tank build but an immediate action to take all of the damage and negative effects when an ally fails a save can be a very big deal. Especially if the effect is something that as a paladin you are immune to or if you have resistances etc)

And Paladin's own spells have many which are exceptional - Greater Angelic Aspect which is otherwise a level 8 Cleric or Sorcerer/Wizard spell. (lowlight vision, dark vision, DR 10/evil, immunity to acid, cold and petrification, resistance 10 electricity and fire, +4 racial bonus vs poison, a protective aura (+4 deflection bonus to AC, +4 resistance bonus against attacks or effects from evil creatures to all within 20' also functions as a magic circle vs evil and lesser globe of invulnerability within 20', oh and it gives you truespeech - i.e. tongues for the duration of the spell with any creature that has language)


Ehhh, the Dimensional chain of feats might be open to you sooner depending on whether or not the DM allows retraining and accepts the FAQ that allows you to retrain old feats to ones that you now qualify for, but didn't in the past.

It feels munchkinny, but it is legal within the rules.


I'm firmly in the "Unsanctioned Knowledge is a trap" camp most of the time, but if you're party is totally lacking in casters then it might actually be good. Just be aware that Paladins don't get many spell slots by default.

Also because you have no casters, Ultimate Mercy will be good if people are in danger of dying. Getting to 10 uses is a bit tricky at 7, but can be done with ELoH and a headband (Bracers of the MK are possible but extremely expensive at 7).


The best way to get the bracers would be to have someone in your party who can craft them for you - but if you had a full caster the need would be a bit lower (though with only an arcane caster Ultimate Mercy is still really good and helpful).

Unsanctioned Knowledge would be much better if you are a very high CHA caster (since you get extra slots). Taking one or more Oaths also helps a little (it gives you extra spells albeit only from your Oaths - depending on the oaths and the spells this may help free up other slots as well as give you some great abilities - but they all also require some tradeoffs.

The other alternative (as I've noted) is to multiclass your Paladin (the Dragon Disciple route would be my suggestion) - you won't be a full caster but if your party doesn't have a caster at all you will be able to contribute and help - and the inherent STR bonuses are very very good (and being a CHA based arcane caster as well as likely a divine caster makes pumping your CHA as high as you can all the more rewarding).

(my DD uses Blindness/Deafness as one of his bard spells - good range, strong effect, his high CHA makes the DCs pretty decent and as a dismissible spell if the party captures the subject of his spell he can dismiss it if the subject repents (or at least helps the party and is delivered to authorities for justice). And as a verbal spell it is able to be cast in armor without arcane spell failure. (better if you are actually a Bard or Sorcerer vs taking it as Unsanctioned Knowledge - though it would be an option to consider as your level 2 choice)

The biggest problem with Unsanctioned Knowledge is that Paladin's few spell slots are usually best used for the many spells specific for the needs and interests of paladins - swift action or immediate action spells are very good choices as they work well with overall action economy (and often have the ability to end encounters or at least turn them around)

Grand Lodge

Rod of Lesser Extend and pearls of power help you get more out of your level 2-3 slots.

Unsanctioned Knowledge can provide buffs and abilities that a paladin can take advantage of.

Mirror image comes to mind. A personal spell that adds layered defenses to you is amazing. Hard to get other than a wand or scroll and UMD skill.

Good Hope paired with a lesser extend is very good for the entire group.

D. Door or Greater Invisibility does help a paladin stomp face in.

Ultimate mercy is good...but in combat it is 1 less feat to be using. This is where the community goes back and forth on the debate of in combat viability versus out of combat options. Pathfinder is a game that is centered heavily on combat and surviving those combats to get some more story and roleplay in. Im a player who leans towards kill them before they kill you. I shun feats like dazzling display that wastes a full round or standard actions to inflict much less damage for a ok debuff...to me the best debuff you can inflict is the dead debuff. So you can take my opinions with a grain of salt.

Both options are good but for different reasons.


a lot depends on how you use your spell slots - my paladin mostly uses spells that are swift actions (if he doesn't have something better to use a swift action on - i.e. he's already smited and doesn't need healing) - in those cases a rod of extend doesn't help all that much though pearls of power are always good for casters with limited spells per day who can use them (1st and even 2nd level pearls aren't all that costly)

Grand Lodge

I use a rod of extend + mirror image when I'm expecting a fight...like entering a dungeon...not during a fight. Then use a pearl of power and another extend to refresh it between fights after the first wears off.

Swift actions spells are good in battle but I prefer buffs I can have up for a few fights. Especially since the whole argument is limited spells and getting the most out of your limited slots.

Another argument is...spell resistance... Some litany spells have no saving throw...some do...but almost all of them are subject to spell resistance and has a good chance of failing.


true - though Paladins have other immediate action/swift action spells that target allies not just spells that target enemies some of those can in the right party be really really good (the 4th level one that lets an ally break a grapple while situational is exceptional, Paladin's Sacrifice very likely could save a PC's life (or a key NPC's life) there are a bunch of other ones.

A lot also depends on your group's play style and encounter patterns - if you get a lot of encounters in relatively short succession then sure a buff that lasts multiple fights is indeed good (though Mirror Image may/may not survive the first fight) - I personally prefer the litanies and other utility spells (Hero's Defiance is what I frequently get back via a Pearl of Power assuming I still have lay on hands uses left). And though it won't last as long as casting it yourself and using a rod of extend a Paladin can have a decent UMD (especially if they use a trait to get UMD as a class skill and have a high CHA) so using wands or schools for buffs is certainly viable

Silver Crusade

Another option for a two-handed weapon paladin is taking Combat Reflexes and using a reach weapon.

1. Fey Foundling
3. Combat Reflexes
5. Power Attack
7. Lunge

That lets you control an area as well as dish out a beat down.


Lunge is on your turn only. It doesn't extend your reach for AoOs.
@ Aelas Morgan Do you plan to take an Archetype?


I don't think so, the oath of vengeance is good for more smite but I prefer the original paladin for the campaign.

Silver Crusade

Have you looked at the Chosen One archetype from the Familiar Folio? I'm having fun making one of those.

Basically, you get a familiar instead of a mount or other divine bond. It re-arranges what level you pick up some stuff before level 4, but once you hit level 4, you've got everything that a normal paladin gets, except for the familiar instead of divine bond, and the familiar gets knowledge: religion instead of the paladin.

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