Ok so here is the deal. I have searched all over for a comprehensive answer to this question and have not found any so far so im hoping that this post might get me some perspective. Please do not tell me "Talk to your DM", since although I am going to be playing in this campaign, I have been put in charge of character creation for the group and making sure that they are all balanced against eachother and rules legit. I know alot more about PF then our DM so he put this responsibility on me.
So the question is as follows. I have a mount who has gained the Pounce ability, which allows him to charge and still make full attacks. However, if the mount's rider ALSO has the ability to Pounce, would this allow him and the mount to both charge and make a full attack. I know that there is no cut and clear answer on this one but I need more opinions, especially if there is something rules wise that I have not come across. From the way I see it now, Pounce is not just an ability to make an extraordinarlity fast charge, it is also the speed of the creature itself in being able to make all those attacks in less time than it would normally take, due to the fact that even if the charge is indeed fast, they are still having to make their attacks even faster than a normal creature as well. So by that logic, even though the mounted character is not himself using his own speed to make the Pounce Charge, the fact that he does in fact himself have charge, should allow him to make his full attacks at the end of the charge.
Clearly there is no question that the Mount itself would charge and get it's full attacks, since it has Pounce. Also that if the character were not mounted and made the charge himself he would get his full attacks, since he has Pounce. However if the character is mounted, he is not taking into account his own accelerated charge speed as part of the charge. Instead he is relying upon the mounts accelerated charge speed. However, since they both have Pounce, and the Mounts Pounce gets it to the enemy with enough time to make all its full attacks, and the Rider is also able, through pounce, to make its full attacks in the same period of time, it seems to make sense to me that the mounts pounce would provide enough time for a Rider with Pounce to also make his full attacks.
Note, I am not about to allow some crazy cheese where he pounces with a Lance and manages to attack with the weapon, then pull it out, and stab again an amount of times equal to his iterative attacks. It MAY be RAW, but it is a stupid visual and makes no sense in a real life kind of way. So there are no concerns here.
What I need to know, is are there any rules in any of the books, that would directly oppose the viewpoint that if both the char and the mount have pounce, they both get to charge and make full attacks, or is it just as much of a grey area as my own research has lead me to believe. The mounted combat section of the book was no help as far as I could tell. Thank you in advance for any help.
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I don't see why it wouldn't.
I don't see why you think it's grey at all. pounce, on a charge you can make a full attack. Nothing about it cares about anything but if you're charging. And if you're not allowing multiple attack from iteratives I don't know how much it matters or not since you seem to not be allowing the point of pounce with the charge.
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When charging the mount and rider charge together, if the rider has Pounce he can full attack whether or not the mount also has Pounce.
FAQ wrote: Mounted Combat: When making a charge while mounted, which creature charges? The rider or the mount?
Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge. The mounted combat rules are a little unclear on this. Replace the third paragraph under the "Combat while Mounted" section on page 202 with the following text. Note that a "mounted charge" is synonymous with a "charge while mounted," and that when a lance is "when used from the back of a charging mount" it is during a mounted charge not when only the mount charges.
A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.
This change will be reflected in future printings of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook
When my cat pounces on me with all fours, she does not rapidly attack with each cute little puddy paw. She attacks with all of them at once.
Do not worry. Your cute little character is going to figure out a way to make all of those attacks happen at once when he pounces at the end of his mount's charge (as per the FAQ cited by NikolaiJuno).
To clarify, I AM allowing him to make all his iterative attacks with Pounce. I am NOT however allowing him to do it with a Lance. 3 reasons for that.
1) Its just an uncomfortable amount of cheese for me.
2) Logistically thinking about it in a real life visual, it makes no damn sense with a Lance. Pulling it out and plunging it back in again so fast that you can make full attacks. Plus with it being a reach weapon this is made even more problematic.
3) This character is actually all about natural attacks and unarmed attacks utilizing TWF feats. No flurrying here. He prefers to use his whole body as his weapon to rend his enemies limb from limb. When fighting with weapons you cant feel the beat of your foe's heart fade into nothing while your claw is plunged into his chest and crushing his heart to a pulp. Now that's a grapple, lol.
Actually both the mount and the rider are based on the same combat tactics. Natural attacks and lots of Unarmed Attacks with TWF feats. Its gonna be brutal for sure.
oh man I must have skipped right over that FAQ the last time I read through it. Thank you very much. That was the exact clarification I needed because the original mounted combat rules did not state which creature was actually charging. This FAQ makes the answer to this question a slam dunk. Also it's nice to see that their thoughts on full attacking with a lance at the end of a charge were in line with mine as well. So if you charge, only your first attack with a Lance, or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge, or both, gets the multiplier. Although they didn't specifically mention Pounce, the fact that they did specifically say "With your first melee attack" takes care of that nicely.
Gods I love it when they actually respond to FAQ requests. Although I agree with this ruling, even if I didn't, I would rather have an official ruling any day of the week, then read through dozens of pages on forums and still have to try to make a decision myself.
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It had a different ruling before, but they changed it to that.
Also iterative attacks are allowed by RAW with Pounce.
FAQ wrote: Pounce: If have this ability (page 302), can I make iterative attacks with weapons as part of my full attack?
Any melee attack sequence you can perform as a full attack is allowed as part of the charge-pounce-full attack. For example, a barbarian with the greater beast totem rage power gains the pounce universal monster ability and could make iterative attacks with manufactured melee weapons as part of her charge-pounce-full attack.
And if you're interested in the RAW for Lance/Pounce.
FAQ wrote: Lance: If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the lance's extra damage multiplier from charging?
No, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because when the Core Rulebook was published, there was no way for a PC to charge and get multiple attacks with a weapon in the same round, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)
Absolutely beautiful. What a lovely and completely sense making set of rulings. I am really glad that I chose to set aside more pointless searching and just post here instead. I need to put aside some time and read through all the faqs again at some point. Thanks for the help Nikolai.
Emparawr wrote: Thanks for the help Nikolai. Happy to help.
Considering that the lance is a one-handed weapon while mounted... go with TWO lances while charging! XD
The Lance is actually a very unique weapon in that while mounted it can be used in one hand, but is still considered a two-handed weapon.
NikolaiJuno wrote: The Lance is actually a very unique weapon in that while mounted it can be used in one hand, but is still considered a two-handed weapon. It's two-handed when you're not on a mount, but one-handed when you're mounted.
As awkward as it sounds, you may have 2 lances hooked to the saddle, ready for you to switch if you desire. Since they're both considered one-handed while mounted, you can TWF with both... once you get passed the penalties.
If you can wield a shield AND a lance while mounted, surely you can wield two lances... although lance/shield bash might be a better alternative.
Charging while pouncing would only applies to the first attack, but the remaining ones would be doable.
JiCi wrote: NikolaiJuno wrote: The Lance is actually a very unique weapon in that while mounted it can be used in one hand, but is still considered a two-handed weapon. It's two-handed when you're not on a mount, but one-handed when you're mounted.
As awkward as it sounds, you may have 2 lances hooked to the saddle, ready for you to switch if you desire. Since they're both considered one-handed while mounted, you can TWF with both... once you get passed the penalties.
If you can wield a shield AND a lance while mounted, surely you can wield two lances... although lance/shield bash might be a better alternative.
Charging while pouncing would only applies to the first attack, but the remaining ones would be doable. Aaaand there goes the sense-making.
Seriously, why do people insist on doing things like this?
Yes, the rules technically allow it. It is still an absurd idea and everyone knows it.
Anyone at my table who tried something like this would be made fun of endlessly.
It'd be more logical to have the mechanics of the vital strike feat line apply to a single lance attack at the end of a charge than try to squeeze in the logic of using pounce.
JiCi wrote: NikolaiJuno wrote: The Lance is actually a very unique weapon in that while mounted it can be used in one hand, but is still considered a two-handed weapon. It's two-handed when you're not on a mount, but one-handed when you're mounted.
As awkward as it sounds, you may have 2 lances hooked to the saddle, ready for you to switch if you desire. Since they're both considered one-handed while mounted, you can TWF with both... once you get passed the penalties.
If you can wield a shield AND a lance while mounted, surely you can wield two lances... although lance/shield bash might be a better alternative.
Charging while pouncing would only applies to the first attack, but the remaining ones would be doable. PRD wrote: Lance
Price 10 gp
Type martial
A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.
"With one hand" is not one-handed. It's still two-handed the same way a light weapon is a light weapon when wielded in one hand.
NikolaiJuno wrote: JiCi wrote: NikolaiJuno wrote: The Lance is actually a very unique weapon in that while mounted it can be used in one hand, but is still considered a two-handed weapon. It's two-handed when you're not on a mount, but one-handed when you're mounted.
As awkward as it sounds, you may have 2 lances hooked to the saddle, ready for you to switch if you desire. Since they're both considered one-handed while mounted, you can TWF with both... once you get passed the penalties.
If you can wield a shield AND a lance while mounted, surely you can wield two lances... although lance/shield bash might be a better alternative.
Charging while pouncing would only applies to the first attack, but the remaining ones would be doable. PRD wrote: Lance
Price 10 gp
Type martial
A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.
"With one hand" is not one-handed. It's still two-handed the same way a light weapon is a light weapon when wielded in one hand. Huh... I think that you're wrong here... If I can wield a lance in one hand... then it's considered a "one-handed" weapon... because unless written elsewhere, wielding a lance while mounted doesn't give you the benefits of wielding an actual two-handed weapon, such as using Power Attack.
Beside, if you can wield a lance while mounted with one hand... guess what you can do with the other hand. A shield can be held and wielded to bash, and so can another lance.
PRD wrote: Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon. PRD wrote: Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
It is still considered a two-handed weapon. The rule of two-handed weapons requiring two hands to wield is overridden by the specific rule that a Lance can be used with on hand. Non of the rules for 1.5 strength damage or 3x power attack damage require a two-handed weapon to be wielded with two hands, just that it be a two-handed weapon.
While mounted a Lance can be wielded in one hand and still gain the benefits of 1.5 str and 3x power attack.
JiCi wrote:
Huh... I think that you're wrong here... If I can wield a lance in one hand... then it's considered a "one-handed" weapon... because unless written elsewhere, wielding a lance while mounted doesn't give you the benefits of wielding an actual two-handed weapon, such as using Power Attack.
Beside, if you can wield a lance while mounted with one hand... guess what you can do with the other hand. A shield can be held and wielded to bash, and so can another lance.
You mean like here?
Believe it or not, the rules make a distinction between "wielded in one hand" and "wielded as a one-handed weapon."
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