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I have a ranger in PFS who has just hit 4th level, and can choose his first spell(s). Resist energy seems highly useful.
Then I got to thinking that in PFS, I think I could get a wand of Resist Energy, since it is a level 1 Ranger spell, for 750 gold.
1) Am I right that in PFS I can buy a wand of resist energy for 750? I'm wondering if you can even buy "ranger-made" wands.
2) If I buy a wand of Resist Energy, does the wand have to be of a SPECIFIC energy type, or does the user of the wand get to decide which energy type they wish to block with each casting of the spell?
My reading is the latter.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list.
1) 4,500 gp in PFS for Resist Energy, no Ranger wands allowed
2) You choose when casting.
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Many gms also make people buy any scroll/potion/wand off that same pricing list.
Getting early access to those spells are special features of those classes.
To allow anyone to just buy those spells at cheaper costs would create shenanigans of people.having stuff better than what the wealth by level system hopes to achive by not letting people have too much at once to the point that nothing is a challenge for them.
Think of how many sellers would get violently taken out by competitors if they were always selling cheaper items. And why would a.merchant want to sell it cheaper if they could still sell it for more than formula cost when they know these would be in short supply and still be something people would pay extra for as the more common versions sell at so much more. Evenwhen stuff like castor level is reduced, the general effect is still worth so much more.
You could also turn this into a RP opportunity or reward. A contact that has the ever so rare alternate spell level costed items. Rivals that would hunt you and the seller down. Conmen claiming to have such goods who have to sell them in a back ally where other merchants won't see them breaking the rules of commerce, where an ambush awaits. Alternate spell level casters that trade in secrete with each other. Unfair taxes or tariffs on alt level spell consumables.
Other DM won't care what list you buy it off of. Just check first if the GM is ok first. Do expect some GMs to accuse you of cheating if you do not check first because some will expect you to have the common sense to know better than to just do whatever you feel like with out checking first. So many organized play campaigns insist on the clr/drd/wiz level purchases that it is sort of like an expectation, even with alternate rules.
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Okay, thanks for the answer.
I have to laugh at the idea that such a wand would constitute a PFS 'shenanigan.'
The whole system is multiclass shenanigans of OP character design.
I have a level 4 ranger specialized in Sword and Shield. He sucks compared to the 1-wizard(general)/1-barbarian/2-fighter who moves 40-feet, rages, and can throw his melee weapon 30-feet while wearing mithril shirt counting as light armor for spellcasting.
But then, PFS makes me a bitter person.
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That barbarian/wizard/fighter still has a 10% arcane spell failure chance, unless he's taken the arcane armor feat, so 1 in ten times when he tries to cast he'll just stand there looking like a chump. Hand of the Apprentice, which is what I assume he's using, doesn't have said failure chance, but only can be used a limited number of times per day dependent on his INT modifier, doesn't get 1.5 Str damage (if he's doing that, advise the GM that it should only be 1x Str) doesn't benefit from power attack since it's a ranged attack, uses his intelligence modifier instead of his strength or dexterity (there's no optional about it, it always uses the int modifier) for the attack roll, and provokes an attack of opportunity since it is a ranged attack.
If you're feeling your build to be underpowered, feel free to post it and we can make suggestions to help you.
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But then, PFS makes me a bitter person.
PFS rules are pretty clear and there with a reason. There is statistically ~5% chance to find a ranger who has Craft Wands feat and is of level 4. If you think about it from a different angle, it makes sense. Most of crafters are wizards and cleric. It's highly unlikely that ranger would ever grab such a feat.
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You've got to remember that PFS is just a campaign that uses its own house rules for the sake of both simplicity and of keeping the rules consistent between games.
Thinking of it like that, the way it works makes sense.
The whole system is multiclass shenanigans of OP character design.
This is unfair - that's a player choice and many players won't take their character builds to munchkin levels (though some will, unfortunately - hopefully not to the detriment of others they play with).
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Where I (used to) play, there are more people who focus on Damage Per Round than otherwise, and so it has become a "keeping up with the OP Joneses". I spent way too much time being a bit-player in someone else's epic.
The day I had a 12-year old playing a level 2 wizard doing 5d6 damage in any elemental type he chose (delivered via familiar as necessary) at a game I was running, well that was the last game of PFS I'll ever run. Core doesn't solve the multi-class problem that, for me, sucks all the joy and mystery out of playing.
My Ranger:
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 13 (bumped at level 4)
Cha 10
Traits were designed to make up for knowledge skills often needed but not present at a table; made Knowledge Local and Linguistics class skills.
Feats: Toughness (at 1)
Shield Slam (at 2)
Improved Shield Bash (at 3)
At level 3 I saved up enough to buy a Mithral Hvy Shield +1 and Bashing so that it's base damage is 1d8.
After this thread, I did buy a wand of Lead Blades, and that makes both my shield and my longsword do 2d6 damage.
I had been concerned that I wouldn't do enough damage, but the Lead Blades wand really brought me up to par with most 1-handed attackers that I play alongside.
AC is 21, and HP are 44 (remember Toughness and +3 Con)
My level 5 feat will be Boon Companion (wolf AC with power attack)
My level 6 will be Shield Master (at which point my shield's Armor Class enhancement can be used as an attack enhancement, and I can save a ton of money making my primary weapon +whatever).
After level 6, I dunno. I could switch to Fighter (the Ranger is half-elven with favored classes of ranger/fighter) but I plan to stay Ranger only, because I want the other bonuses. Probably saving shield and shield focus along the way.
Favored enemy is Dragon (I know you should always take human in PFS, but I don't like the meta-gaming aspect of that) and favored terrain is "underground/dungeon" because that meta-gaming came at level 3 when I'd spent a lot of time underground...
Honestly this character is both fun and relatively competent in any tank role. It's just average damage of 9 per round, and where I play, that's a joke at level 4. I do survive well with all those HP and Armor class.
Anyhow, I learned a lot in this thread, thanks.
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Where I (used to) play, there are more people who focus on Damage Per Round than otherwise, and so it has become a "keeping up with the OP Joneses". I spent way too much time being a bit-player in someone else's epic.
Well there is your problem. You have to learn to relax and not worry about it. Don't let others dictate your gameplay. I have several experienced PF veterans who tend to do so out of habit so they get a warning occasionally. Just remember about the PFS tenets: Explore, Cooperate, Report!
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I don't use shield spikes, and I kinda don't care about that FAQ.
For god's sake - again - I'm not overpowered doing 2d6, whereas the barbarian/wizard/fighter throwing a glaive 30-feet, and the 5d6 Level 2 Wizard (doing any elemental damage he wants) are SUPER broken and completely legal (even in CORE).
THIS IS WHY I HATE PFS!
It takes incredible balls to nerf a 2d6 shield and not the other stuff.
Next GM who enforces what Nefreet argues - well, that'll be my last PFS game as a player.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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First let me say, that I dislike the favored enemy mechanic with a passion, and the "take human as a favored enemy" is a great suggestion in every single AP too.
I tried to rebuild that character in Hero Lab, this is how I would have build it, you might be able to retrain, in some areas, but a ranger is not ideal for the role of tank.
Oh and do you thing that a mithral heavy shield actually reduces the substantial two-weapon fighting penalties ? I don't think so, and that -4 on all attack rolls is pretty nasty.
level 6 ranger test
Half-elf ranger (wild hunter) 5 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 108)
CG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +4
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 12, flat-footed 20 (+7 armor, +2 Dex, +3 shield)
hp 53 (5d10+19)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +3; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee mwk katana +8 (1d8+2/18-20)
Special Attacks combat style (weapon and shield)
Ranger (Wild Hunter) Spells Prepared (CL 2nd; concentration +4)
. . 1st—heightened awareness[ACG]
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Boon Companion, Endurance, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Shield Focus
Skills Acrobatics -2 (-6 to jump), Perception +4; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ animal focus (5 minutes/day), animal focusess (bat, bear, bull, falcon, frog, monkey, mouse, owl, snake, stag, tiger, wolf), elf blood, favored terrain (underground +2), hunter's bond (wolf named animal companion), track +2, wild empathy +5
Other Gear +1 breastplate, +1 light steel quickdraw shield, mwk katana, 6 gp
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Tracked Resources
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Animal Focus (5 minutes/day) (Su) - 0/5
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Special Abilities
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Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Animal Focus (5 minutes/day) (Su) As a swift action, gain bonuses from emulated animal(s). If no companion, +1 slots.
Bat (60 feet) (Su) When assuming this aspect, gain darkvision with listed range, or blindsense at higher levels.
Bear +2 (Su) When assuming this aspect, gain listed enhancement bonus to Con.
Boon Companion (Animal Companion) +4 levels to calc familiar/animal comp abilities (max of your HD).
Bull +2 (Su) When assuming this aspect, gain listed enhancement bonus to Str.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Endurance +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Falcon +4 (Su) When assuming this aspect, gain listed competence bonus to Perception.
Favored Terrain (Underground +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls when in Favored Terrain (Underground).
Frog +4 (Su) When assuming this aspect, gain listed competence bonus to Swim & Acrobatics to jump.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Monkey +4 (Su) When assuming this aspect, gain listed competence bonus to Climb.
Mouse (Su) When assuming this aspect, gain evasion, or improved evasion at higher levels.
Owl +4 (Su) When assuming this aspect, gain listed competence bonus to Stealth.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Can cast spells with a target of "you" on animal companion, as touch spells.
Shield Focus +1 Shield AC
Snake +2 (Su) When assuming this aspect, gain listed bonus to att on AoO & to AC vs. AoO.
Stag +5 (Su) When assuming this aspect, gain listed enhancement bonus to speed.
Tiger +2 (Su) When assuming this aspect, gain listed enhancement bonus to Dex.
Track +2 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wild Empathy +5 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Wolf (10 feet) (Su) When assuming this aspect, gain scent with listed range.Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Since you have only 14 STR and want to tank here is my suggestion.
Use lead blades from your wand ideally before combat starts.This new tactic uses power attack, quick draw and quickdraw shields (this allows you to carry wands in you shield hand which can be a huge advantage). Also I used a katana, but a bastard sword or longsword work too.
If you don't want to use your actions to use a wand (considering your spell list you might regularly want to do so) just "sheat" your shield, take a two-handed grip on your weapon, power attack with it, and then take your shield again.
Oh and the archetype that gives you the animal focus class feature from the Hunter class is pretty sweet for your build.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I don't use shield spikes, and I kinda don't care about that FAQ.
For god's sake - again - I'm not overpowered doing 2d6, whereas the barbarian/wizard/fighter throwing a glaive 30-feet, and the 5d6 Level 2 Wizard (doing any elemental damage he wants) are SUPER broken and completely legal (even in CORE).THIS IS WHY I HATE PFS!
It takes incredible balls to nerf a 2d6 shield and not the other stuff.
Next GM who enforces what Nefreet argues - well, that'll be my last PFS game as a player.
Several points:
The barbarian wizard fighter
- Has a worse AC that you, still suffers from arcane spell failure, unless he spends a feat and a swift action, each round he wants to cast and has invested quite a bit into his armor.
- Has a lower base attack bonus than you
- While he can use hand of the apprentice has mentioned, there are some problems with that ability, least of all, that it is a ranged attack, so unless that character has precise shot and improved precise shot shooting into melee (-4) and cover (-4) are quite often an issue.
- With a two-handed weapon is quite likely not using a shield, and the shield eats actions in combat (and is easiely replicated by a wand of shield, that quite a number of characters can use.
- Has at least one level without a favored class bonus
- Has likely less skill points per level than you
- Will not be able to access certain higher level abilities
That build may be good now, but there is a cost involved.
Regarding the "nerv" to your abilities, I would suggest not to take it personally, rules decisions are not made to harm certain players. They didn't look at all those sword and board rangers, and decided to nerv them. Just because you don't think, that you are OP (you aren't with that to hit penalty) doesn't mean, that another player has not found a way to abuse an ability.
With spells like lead blades and shillelagh we really needed that ruling.
Oh and GMs are enforced to follow the rules to the best of their knowledge, they have no choice not to enforce that ruling, and that includes you when you GM.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Hopefully you can find something else within the hundreds of character options available to players within the PFS framework. If you are looking to participate in a campaign where GMs will allow you to play a character that violates the Pathfinder Rules system, then PFS is most certainly not for you.
Adventure Paths and homebrews might be more your speed if your character concept relies on the bending or breaking of rules. Although I am an active PFS participant, I engage in a handful of semi-regular homebrew games that enable me to play characters that would otherwise be illegal in PFS.
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The barbarian wizard fighter
....While he can use hand of the apprentice has mentioned, there are some problems with that ability, least of all, that it is a ranged attack, so unless that character has precise shot and improved precise shot shooting into melee (-4) and cover (-4) are quite often an issue.
At the risk of being too picky, cover doesn't apply a -4 to the attacker's roll, it adds +4 to the target's AC. Mathematically, the result is the same, but it's important to apply it correctly due to the rules of stacking bonuses and the like, and because the rule is quite clear that it applies to the defender's AC. Firing at a target in melee does, indeed, apply a -4 to the attacker's roll. When I run, I tell my players, "you let me worry about the target's AC - YOU worry about your attack rolls" so now if the bad guy is behind cover, they just leave it to me to apply (as they should.)
But, aside from that one nit that I'm picking, I think Sebastian's point here is well taken. Effectively, without burning those feats, the attacker chances are now reduced by 8 (or 40%), just for that one circumstance alone. That's huge.
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THIS IS WHY I HATE PFS!
It takes incredible balls to nerf a 2d6 shield and not the other stuff.
Next GM who enforces what Nefreet argues - well, that'll be my last PFS game as a player.That isn't a PFS restriction.
Lead Blades and Bashing simply don't stack.
This is true completely.
@heliodorus04
Your problem lies somewhere else, not in PFS. Perhaps you should try different more simple system.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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The barbarian wizard fighter
....While he can use hand of the apprentice has mentioned, there are some problems with that ability, least of all, that it is a ranged attack, so unless that character has precise shot and improved precise shot shooting into melee (-4) and cover (-4) are quite often an issue.At the risk of being too picky, cover doesn't apply a -4 to the attacker's roll, it adds +4 to the target's AC. Mathematically, the result is the same, but it's important to apply it correctly due to the rules of stacking bonuses and the like, and because the rule is quite clear that it applies to the defender's AC. Firing at a target in melee does, indeed, apply a -4 to the attacker's roll. When I run, I tell my players, "you let me worry about the target's AC - YOU worry about your attack rolls" so now if the bad guy is behind cover, they just leave it to me to apply (as they should.)
But, aside from that one nit that I'm picking, I think Sebastian's point here is well taken. Effectively, without burning those feats, the attacker chances are now reduced by 8 (or 40%), just for that one circumstance alone. That's huge.
Yeah cover has a number of issues attached, especially with less well known powers, like ignoring the soft cover provided by just one of your allies.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Okay, thanks for the advice. I am not cut out for PFS, and I cheated my last two games. Is there a way to delete my profile from Paizo and kill off all my characters?
None so blind...
Sad to hear that, good luck in finding game that is more suitable to your wishes.
However, if your are still reading this. Everybody makes mistakes, and I am decidedly not excluding myself, I regularly notice after a fight, that I have missed a bonus, or missed some stacking issues.
You still have a viable character, who could benefit from some retraining, but it is still not a bad character. Other players with more system mastery are better at select things than your character, but there is really nothing wrong with that.
GMs aren't allowed to balance games in PFS since, well it would be a disaster.
If you ever want to play that concept again, I would suggest a brawler, they can benefit from the number of higher attacks associated with two weapon fighting, while still using their shield. (Essentially their flurry lets them attack twice with the same weapon).
In any case you don't have to delete anything (and it could cause database and reporting problems, so the option seems unlikely) and in some time your might want to try again.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Is there a FAQ which states Lead Blades and Bashing don't stack? I can't seem to find it.THIS IS WHY I HATE PFS!
It takes incredible balls to nerf a 2d6 shield and not the other stuff.
Next GM who enforces what Nefreet argues - well, that'll be my last PFS game as a player.That isn't a PFS restriction.
Lead Blades and Bashing simply don't stack.
This is true completely.
It seems to be a result of the similar abilities don't stack rule. Just like the lead blades spell, does not stack with the impact weapon enhancement, since they are essentially doing the same thing.
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Venture-Agent, Florida—Longwood
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It seems to be a result of the similar abilities don't stack rule. Just like the lead blades spell, does not stack with the impact weapon enhancement, since they are essentially doing the same thing.
Is there a FAQ which states Lead Blades and Bashing don't stack? I can't seem to find it.
Bashing - A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.
Lead Blades - Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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It seems to be a result of the similar abilities don't stack rule. Just like the lead blades spell, does not stack with the impact weapon enhancement, since they are essentially doing the same thing.The Impact weapon quality actually uses Lead Blades as the underlying spell. Bashing uses Bull's Strength. Qualitatively, completely different effects.
I take it there is no FAQ which states that these two don't stack and it's just people's opinion?
Yeah, pretty weird, that a magic shield enhancement from the CRB doesn' require a spell from the APG that will not be written for several years.
Also since Tamec was so kind to post the relevant sections of two spells, let me add another:
Shillelag: Your own non-magical club or quarterstaff becomes a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. A quarterstaff gains this enhancement for both ends of the weapon. It deals damage as if it were two size categories larger (a Small club or quarterstaff so transmuted deals 1d8 points of damage, a Medium 2d6, and a Large 3d6), +1 for its enhancement bonus.
If someone tells me, that that means that my hunter with her 0 GP club and two min/level spells can deal 3d6 ... well that is a bit unreasonable. You can still get that damage, but Mr. Wizard has to bother casting enlarge person on you.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Go druid with the growth domain and swift action enlarge person, use a large size club in two hands and you are up to 4d6, as the club starts out large (1d8), goes up 2d6 with enlarge person as huge, and Shillelagh to 4d6, all at first level for a standard and a swift action.
I know it is possible, but frankly I don't really want to. That kind of damage is pretty dangerous, especially when confusion and similar effects become relevant.
I might (ab)use Shillelagh with a new Hunter/magus with a club and enlarge person (enlarge person mostly to avoid attacks of opportunity at lower levels. )Yeah, pretty weird, that a magic shield enhancement from the CRB doesn' require a spell from the APG that will not be written for several years.Not following your logic. Lead Blades is a weapon enhancement, not a shield enhancement.
If someone tells me, that that means that my hunter with her 0 GP club and two min/level spells can deal 3d6 ... well that is a bit unreasonable.I love these subjective statements passed off as some objective truth. There are hundreds of things in this game that are "unreasonable" depending on who you ask. I find it funny when people zero in on one particular thing and pretend this is some huge game breaking ordeal.
By the time/level you can get a Shield of Bashing, doing 3d6 is nothing considering it's going to cost you a casting of Lead Blades and some feat investment. At 4th level, my Rage Power Attacking THW Barbarian is getting +16 on damage with a +1 weapon. And he doesn't need to cast a spell to do it. That's more damage on bonus than this weapon is doing out right. Of things that are unreasonable in this game, this doesn't break the top 100, probably not even the top 200.
My point was, that expecting it to require an unwritten spell is unreasonable, and the bashing shield enhancement pretty much turns your shield into a weapon (and from the description pretty much does the same as lead blades, increasing the kinetic potency).
I am not going to argue that the bashing shield things is terribly broken, especially considering the two weapon fighting penalties.
However that is not the issue, the reason why we have a general rule against stacking, is to curb the power of some of the better combinations. I am not going to argue, that a level Barbarian can do that much damage, but that is pretty much his thing.
Oh and lead blades is a personal range spell, thus it affects all weapons used by the character.
Just for the sake or argument, two-weapon fighting builds with shields only really get good once characters get a substantial bonus on damage rolls, and even then I would prefer to flurry.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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My point was, that expecting it to require an unwritten spell is unreasonable, and the bashing shield enhancement pretty much turns your shield into a weapon (and from the...I still don't understand what you're saying about an "unwritten spell"? You're suggesting that if Lead Blades was available then they would have used that spell instead of Bull's Strength?
If so, then I'll counter and say that they would have explicitly stated that Lead Blades does not work with anything that increases the size of the weapon. You know, like they did with the Keen property and Improved Critical? They know how to stop convergent stacking, even when it comes from two completely different sources. Interesting that the bashing rules don't explicitly rule out spikes, isn't it?
Is it possible they missed Lead Blades and Bashing and shield spikes? Sure. It's also possible when they used the "actually are," they were just going with what best described the mechanic without intending any stacking consequences. Similar to how many spells use "as if" the subject had concealment when the spell is not actually granting concealment, just wanting to use the same mathematical process.
Looking at the spell requirements is often a tactic employed to divine of two different effects are supposed to stack or not. Given that bull strength doesn't seem to be particularly linked to the bashing effect, I would argue, that yes lead blades would have been the right call, had it been available.
The keen weapon example... doesn't work for me. I actually remember the time in D&D when it went from stacking, to no longer stacking, to some designers still arguing that is should stack... that process to years. If I have to start listing the number of unclear rules in the PFRPG, I will quite likely not be done before PF2 hits the store shelves.. so let's not.
Shield spikes don't really enter into the discussion, since bashing is an armor enhancement, and shield spikes require a weapon enhancement bonus. So you could have a +2 bashing shield with +1 flaming shield spikes - this gives you the option to attack for 1d8 +2 or 1d6+ 1+1d6 fire damage.
And frankly, I would rather attack with a real weapon.
EDIT: The casting lead blades argument is valid at lower levels, once your reach a certan level you can pretty much guarantee the presence of min/level buffs.
Also as written, I think lead blades does stack with shield spikes, not that this was ever questioned.
I really don't have a problem with the concept, but some things just don't work as written.
EDIT2: Flame oracle cheese is a result of game designers writing a nice fitting ability without realizing the ways it can be abused. See Goz masks.
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Since this thread was originally about another topic, let's move this tangent discussion to the FAQ request thread, where it'd serve the community better.