Combat expertise worth it?


Advice


Background: Making an elven arcanist->inspired blade->Ek

I am using early entry via wizard school exploit diviner. I am a Dex build, using fencing grace, eventually piranha strike and arcane strike.

I hit a wall reguarding the best way to defend myself. Rearranging feats and gold to bring up saves and ac. I understand I am a spellcaster, but some defense is nice.

So I was looking at Combat Expertise which I know is normally a waste of space. My question is, combining it with the Madu shield and the threatening defender trait make it worth while?

Madu and trait lower To hit penalties by a total of 2 with comabt expertise, and the madu lowers the penalty for fighting defensively by 2.

So
-2 fighting defensively (reduced by madu)
+2 ac fighting defensively
+1 3 ranks acrobatics
+2 combat expertise no penalties
+1/-1 combat expertise after

So ur looking at -2/+5 then every 4 Bab above +4 (+8/+12/+16) a -1/+1 trade. And then we can add our shield bonus :)

Think it's worth it for 1-2 feat + trait expenditure?


I'm not an expert here, but I believe your best defensive options are miss chance related. So spells like blur or mirror image.

Although, maybe you are only interested in non-magical ways of buffing your defenses, for the purposes of this thread.


Arcanist have a limited spell selection, no doubt blurr and mirror image will be there. But yes this is a non magical way of maybe replacing armor sometimes.

Also These are all dodge bonuses so they help cmd and touch ac.


As an Arcanist->EK you probably can't spare the feats and trait for this sort of thing. Plus the Madu has a poor crit range and doesn't work with Inspired Blade class features.


It kinda depends what the rest of the group is doing and general party tactics.

If you are the main melee guy and your attack is otherwise high enough that you won't be missing that often, then I would say yes.

If there is another major melee presence (especially a tankish build) to take a significant portion of the attacks with you being more of a hit and run assistant melee, then I would say no.


Arcanist have a limited spell selection, no doubt blurr and mirror image will be there. But yes this is a non magical way of maybe replacing armor sometimes.

Also These are all dodge bonuses so they help cmd and touch ac.

I think for a 1-12 game that I can easily focus on being Martial with spell back up. My save dcs aren't bad and with potent magic (exploit) and magic knack (trait). My spells will be competitive when I need them to be.


Well I am currently in a society game, so I ave to figure out if the madu and traits are legal.

If they are I can use it in my game, where we have no shortage of martials. Couple switch hitter rangers, support cleric, a fighter, and a new PC idk.

I wanted to give us an arcane presence but wanted to go ek.

To this extend I wanted to keep spell casting for utility and battle field control. Using as little as possible for having to buff up. Especially since I don't have quicker or extend metamagics.


If your party is already martial-heavy I would stick to Arcanist and focus on spells. And since you're in PFS, Magus is the better hybrid - The EK only ever gains a 1-2 BAB advantage over the Magus, and its spellcasting is behind until level 12. EK is the better class at 12+ purely due to higher level spells, but PFS doesn't go that high. Essentially you're spending a trait (Magical Knack) and feats (Extra Exploit) to do the same thing as a Magus.

Liberty's Edge

As an Inspired Blade your best melee defense comes from the deeds Opportune Parry & Riposte and Dodging Panache. I would focus on increasing your crit range, AoOs, and +attack. I would steer clear of things that give you a penalty to attack. Also grab a wand of Mirror Image/Blur/Displacement so you can conserve your spells for other uses.


Just realize that if you're fighting defensively with the Madu you don't get any of the bonuses from Weapon Finesse or Fencing Grace (and can't use some of the deeds). Inspired Blade is rapier focused for a number of its abilities...

EDIT: And if you're trying to finesse while wearing/using a Madu you're taking a -1 to hit from it's ACP...


I would skip Piranha Strike. It won't work with your rapier, and with your low BAB plus the TWF penalties, the additional 'to hit' penalty will make it very difficult to strike anyone with your Madu.


Ok I have a chance to get back to everyone now.

Actually with early entry my Bab is just 1 point below a fighters the entire time. So and with the support PC I feel comfortable with the penalties. Of course I don't plan to stack them on all at once.

I know and love he magus, this PC is specifically different because I wanted to be different.

Plz explain how fighting defensively doesn't allow for me to use weapon finesse or fencing grace. (Rereading piranha strike made me sad)

Also believe it or not I never intended to attack with the shield. No twf.

Out of all the things no one complains that I can't cast with sword and shield out. That part drives me nuts!

On a positive note it opens up a feat.

If you all want I will post my build and then happily let you tear it apart for new ideas.

1 Arcanist-> 1 Inspiring blade-> 10 Ek

1 Fencing grace
3 Extra Arcane Exploit // shield Prof Madu
5 combat expertise
7 Extra Arcane Exploit // Arcane strike
9 Improved Critical
11 GWF// weapon specialization


Ok I have a chance to get back to everyone now.

Actually with early entry my Bab is just 1 point below a fighters the entire time. So and with the support PC I feel comfortable with the penalties. Of course I don't plan to stack them on all at once.

I know and love he magus, this PC is specifically different because I wanted to be different.

Plz explain how fighting defensively doesn't allow for me to use weapon finesse or fencing grace. (Rereading piranha strike made me sad)

Also believe it or not I never intended to attack with the shield. No twf.

Out of all the things no one complains that I can't cast with sword and shield out. That part drives me nuts!

On a positive note it opens up a feat.

If you all want I will post my build and then happily let you tear it apart for new ideas.

1 Inspiring blade-> 1 Arcanist-> 10 Ek

1 Fencing grace
3 Extra Arcane Exploit // shield Prof Madu
5 combat expertise
7 Extra Arcane Exploit // Arcane strike
9 Improved Critical
11 GWF// weapon specialization


To get the benefit you want from the Madu, you HAVE fight defensively WITH the Madu as a light exotic weapon. You don't fight defensively while attacking with the rapier and just have it strapped to the other arm.

The Inspiring Blade class feature that gives you weapon finesse only gives you weapon finesse in regards to a rapier. So if you're not attacking with a rapier, you do not count as having the feat. If you don't count as having finesse for your attack, you can not use another feat that requires it as a prerequisite (Fencing Grace).


Thank you for explaining, it makes sense. Wish they would have added "So long as you benefit from the ac bonus of the madu ..."

Would improve sword and board as well as combat expertise.

Well my phone is dying but feel free to give me ideas. If I don't use the madu and combat expertise what 2 feats would u suggest for dmg ar defense.

Liberty's Edge

Why are you so worried about AC when you have the ability to avoid melee attacks altogether? Take Combat Reflexes over Combat Expertise (and take it at level 3 in place of Arcane Exploit). For extra AoO capability, use the spell Line in the Sand to add your Intelligence bonus to your AoOs per round. At the earliest opportunity enhance your Rapier with Keen (+1) and Answering (+1). Use the Long Arm spell, Lunge feat, and/or Swashbuckler's Flair (Blue Scarf) to increase your reach.

When in melee you can declare a Parry when you are attacked and roll an opposed attack check (at your highest BAB with all your attack bonuses). If your roll is greater than your opponent's roll the attack misses. If you have a Panache point left over you can Riposte as an Immediate action. If you crit on the Riposte you get a Panache point back (Keen/Imp Critical is vital for Panache recovery). If your Panache pool is small you can augment it with the Extra Panache feat but crit fishing is your best bet for maintaining Panache throughout the day.

Now say you are fighting something with multiple attacks. You will need to maintain your spacing from the attacker for this to work. Use your reach (you bought a Blue Scarf right?) and 5' step to stay outside your opponent's reach whenever possible to force your opponent to use a 5' step to engage you. On the first attack use Dodging Panache to take an Immediate 5' step away (1 Panache). You still take the first attack (which you can attempt to Parry but not Riposte) but all iterative attacks are negated because you are now out of range. Of course if the attacker has Step Up (or the whole Step Up chain) this will not work.

Work to your strengths (Magic and Deeds) instead of focusing on tactics that diminish your class abilities.

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