Order of the Hammer Cavalier Order Stack with Monk Levels for Unarmed Damage ?

[SoonerTed]

Order of the Hammer states:
"At 2nd level, the cavalier does not provoke attacks of opportunity when she attacks foes while unarmed so long as she is dealing nonlethal damage. In addition, the cavalier's unarmed strikes deal more nonlethal damage than usual; she is treated as having a number of monk levels equal to her cavalier level for the purpose of determining how much nonlethal damage her unarmed strikes deal."

If a character has 2 levels in Cavalier/Order of the Hammer & Two levels of Monk, does that make him level 4 in Monk for unarmed damage, therefore giving his unarmed, nonlethal damage 1d8 ?

It makes sense that it would, but RAW doesn't always make sense.

Thanks!

[Protoman]

I'd say it would stack for the nonlethal damage only since.

[NikolaiJuno]

The non-lethal only thing is weird, but I've always been under the impression that Monk levels stack for unarmed damage if they are actually called Monk levels.
In this case the Cavalier's Monk levels could obviously only be added when dealing non-lethal damage.

[Ughbash]

SoonerTed wrote:

Order of the Hammer states:

"At 2nd level, the cavalier does not provoke attacks of opportunity when she attacks foes while unarmed so long as she is dealing nonlethal damage. In addition, the cavalier's unarmed strikes deal more nonlethal damage than usual; she is treated as having a number of monk levels equal to her cavalier level for the purpose of determining how much nonlethal damage her unarmed strikes deal."

If a character has 2 levels in Cavalier/Order of the Hammer & Two levels of Monk, does that make him level 4 in Monk for unarmed damage, therefore giving his unarmed, nonlethal damage 1d8 ?

It makes sense that it would, but RAW doesn't always make sense.

Thanks!

Assuming that is a directr quote, no they would no stack.

As a 2/2 she would as a cavalier be treated as 2nd level monk when dealing non lethal and as a second level monk when dealing lethal.

If instead she was a 4th level cavalier and second level monk she could do non lethal damage as a 4th level monk and lethal damage as a second level monk.

Levels would not stack unless it stated they did. Thus Monk does not stack with Brawler or Sacred fist either.

[Chess Pwn]

I don't think anything that has other levels stack. There are classes/domains that gain "barb levels", a cleric that gains "bard levels" and stuff that gain "monk levels" and I think all of those don't stack. You're getting the exact same ability and use their table for reference, but you don't stack with them.

[SoonerTed]

The cleric that gains bard levels doesn't actually have bard levels. Sermonic performance says nothign about having any number of bard levels, just "equivalent to".

What makes this different, in my mind, is it actually says "treated as having the monk levels" in regards to unarmed strike. But I've been wrong before.

[Ughbash]

SoonerTed wrote:

The cleric that gains bard levels doesn't actually have bard levels. Sermonic performance says nothign about having any number of bard levels, just "equivalent to".

What makes this different, in my mind, is it actually says "treated as having the monk levels" in regards to unarmed strike. But I've been wrong before.

But it says "treated as having monk levels equal to their cavalier level".

Lets say a Feat let you wield a large weapon with no penalty.
Lets say you are also a tiefling who has the alternate ability to wield a large weapon with no penalty.
You can not then wield a huge weapon with no penalty.

If you compare the wording on the monk levels to the advanced talent for ninjas.

Quote:

Unarmed Combat Mastery: A ninja who selects this trick deals damage with her unarmed strikes as if she were a monk of her ninja level –4. If the ninja has levels in monk, this ability stacks with monk levels to determine how much damage she can do with her unarmed strikes.

Here it speciically says it stacks, without that wording it would not stack.

[SoonerTed]

Comparing large weapon + large weapon and saying that doesn't make you able to wield a huge weapon is in no way comparable to saying "treat these levels in Cavalier as levels in Monk when determining unarmed damage".

The reason Unarmed Combat Mastery needs a specific stacking clause is because Ninja & Monk are two different classes.

Levels in the same class stack, no?

[Chess Pwn]

she is treated as having a number of monk levels equal to her cavalier level

as if she were a monk of her ninja level –4

I believe these mean the same thing.

[Ughbash]

SoonerTed wrote:

Comparing large weapon + large weapon and saying that doesn't make you able to wield a huge weapon is in no way comparable to saying "treat these levels in Cavalier as levels in Monk when determining unarmed damage".

The reason Unarmed Combat Mastery needs a specific stacking clause is because Ninja & Monk are two different classes.

Levels in the same class stack, no?

Cavalier and Monk are not the same class. So unless it says the effective levels stack they would not stack.

Note Ninjas says it acts as a monk level -4 and that they stack with monk levels for damage.

Cavalier says it counts as monk level for non lethal but does not say anything about stacking with monk levels.

[SoonerTed]

It is also important to note that this comes from a Player Companion (Harrowing Handbook). Often times these additional archetypes or orders miss key text due to editing issues.

Show me where you get actual levels for calculating an effect and it doesn't stack?

[Purple Dragon Knight]

hmmm... what about the Monk's Robe? would that stack with that cavalier thingy?

[SoonerTed]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

hmmm... what about the Monk's Robe? would that stack with that cavalier thingy?

Makes sense to me, for non-lethal damage only. Same way a Robe of Arcane Heritage works on those who have the Eldritch Heritage feat line.

[NikolaiJuno]

Brawler does not stack with Monk, or anything else that increases unarmed as a Monk because it has it's own progression chart and in no way references the Monk class.

Order of the Hammer and Sacred Fist count you as having Monk levels. For the purpose of unarmed damage they are Monk levels.
It's not the unarmed damage of a Monk of X level, it's Monk levels.
There is a difference. The Ninja trick needs that wording to include Monk levels because it uses wording that otherwise excludes actual Monk levels. Order of the Hammer does not have that wording, but has wording that already stacks with Monk.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

SoonerTed wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

hmmm... what about the Monk's Robe? would that stack with that cavalier thingy?

Makes sense to me, for non-lethal damage only. Same way a Robe of Arcane Heritage works on those who have the Eldritch Heritage feat line.

That is freakin' sweet. I don't see how such a dude would ever draw his sword... backhanded slaps with his meaty hands will solve most conflicts! :)

[SoonerTed]

NikolaiJuno wrote:

Brawler does not stack with Monk, or anything else that increases unarmed as a Monk because it has it's own progression chart and in no way references the Monk class.

Order of the Hammer and Sacred Fist count you as having Monk levels. For the purpose of unarmed damage they are Monk levels.
It's not the unarmed damage of a Monk of X level, it's Monk levels.
There is a difference.

You count as having monk levels equivalent to your cavalier level. So, that means if you have 2 cavalier levels, you have 2 monk levels. Multi-class into monk for 2 levels, and you have 2 monk levels + 2 monk levels = 4 Monk levels when dealing non-lethal damage.

Don't forget this is a Player Companion, which often notoriously leave off intended text that would indicate it working in the intended way.

[NikolaiJuno]

SoonerTed wrote:

NikolaiJuno wrote:

Brawler does not stack with Monk, or anything else that increases unarmed as a Monk because it has it's own progression chart and in no way references the Monk class.

Order of the Hammer and Sacred Fist count you as having Monk levels. For the purpose of unarmed damage they are Monk levels.
It's not the unarmed damage of a Monk of X level, it's Monk levels.
There is a difference.

You count as having monk levels equivalent to your cavalier level. So, that means if you have 2 cavalier levels, you have 2 monk levels. Multi-class into monk for 2 levels, and you have 2 monk levels + 2 monk levels = 4 Monk levels when dealing non-lethal damage.

Don't forget this is a Player Companion, which often notoriously leave off intended text that would indicate it working in the intended way.

Yes, that is what I was trying to say.

[SoonerTed]

NikolaiJuno wrote:

That is what I was trying to say.

Reading comprehension fail on my part. Sorry!

[Chess Pwn]

as if she were a monk of her ninja level –4 means it's as if instead of being a ninja at all she's a monk. So a Monk 2 ninja 2 would have 4 monk levels. EXCEPT the ninja specifically says it stacks and as the FAQ says:

"Unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately."

So "she is treated as having a number of monk levels equal to her cavalier level for the the purpose of determining how much nonlethal damage her unarmed strikes deal"

from this cavalier is the same as the sacred fist

"He uses his warpriest levels as monk levels for determining the amount of damage dealt with an unarmed strike."

[Just a Guess]

But be careful. Until you get the monk dip you do not threaten and still provoke AoOs with unarmed strikes. The order of the hammer does not get rid of that.

[Protoman]

Chess Pwn wrote:

as if she were a monk of her ninja level –4 means it's as if instead of being a ninja at all she's a monk. So a Monk 2 ninja 2 would have 4 monk levels. EXCEPT the ninja specifically says it stacks and as the FAQ says:

"Unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately."

So "she is treated as having a number of monk levels equal to her cavalier level for the the purpose of determining how much nonlethal damage her unarmed strikes deal"

from this cavalier is the same as the sacred fist

"He uses his warpriest levels as monk levels for determining the amount of damage dealt with an unarmed strike."

I think you're saying they stack? You didn't summarize so I'm not sure.

The or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge) part of that FAQ sounds like it would apply to the cavalier since its nonlethal unarmed damage progression is counting as monk levels, so wouldn't that apply to the effective "total class level"?

[Ian Bell]

Just a Guess wrote:

But be careful. Until you get the monk dip you do not threaten and still provoke AoOs with unarmed strikes. The order of the hammer does not get rid of that.

Er:

Quote:

At 2nd level, the cavalier does not provoke attacks of opportunity when she attacks foes while unarmed so long as she is dealing nonlethal damage.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Just a Guess wrote:

But be careful. Until you get the monk dip you do not threaten and still provoke AoOs with unarmed strikes. The order of the hammer does not get rid of that.

I don't know about threatening, but the OP's quote says you don't provoke AoOs...

[NikolaiJuno]

Just a Guess wrote:

But be careful. Until you get the monk dip you do not threaten and still provoke AoOs with unarmed strikes. The order of the hammer does not get rid of that.

Order of the Hammer wrote:

Mighty Bash (Ex)

At 2nd level, the cavalier does not provoke attacks of opportunity when she attacks foes while unarmed so long as she is dealing nonlethal damage. In addition, the cavalier's unarmed strikes deal more nonlethal damage than usual; she is treated as having a number of monk levels equal to her cavalier level for the purpose of determining how much nonlethal damage her unarmed strikes deal.

[SoonerTed]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

SoonerTed wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

hmmm... what about the Monk's Robe? would that stack with that cavalier thingy?

Makes sense to me, for non-lethal damage only. Same way a Robe of Arcane Heritage works on those who have the Eldritch Heritage feat line.

That is freakin' sweet. I don't see how such a dude would ever draw his sword... backhanded slaps with his meaty hands will solve most conflicts! :)

Get something that has sneak attack, add in Sap Adept, Knockout Artist, & Sap Master.... :)

[Protoman]

SoonerTed wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

SoonerTed wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

hmmm... what about the Monk's Robe? would that stack with that cavalier thingy?

Makes sense to me, for non-lethal damage only. Same way a Robe of Arcane Heritage works on those who have the Eldritch Heritage feat line.

That is freakin' sweet. I don't see how such a dude would ever draw his sword... backhanded slaps with his meaty hands will solve most conflicts! :)

Get something that has sneak attack, add in Sap Adept, Knockout Artist, & Sap Master.... :)

At that point might as well play a snakebite striker with pummeling charge multiclassed with scout (ninja/rogue).

[SoonerTed]

Vivisectionist Alchemist + 2 Levels of Monk + 2 levels of Cavalier rather than rogue.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

SoonerTed wrote:

Vivisectionist Alchemist + 2 Levels of Monk + 2 levels of Cavalier rather than rogue.

interesting... go on...

[SoonerTed]

The build I'm working on is less unarmed damage & geared around the vivisectionist.

So far, to 16 levels I've got (the order does matter somewhat):
1. Vivisectionist Alchemist
2. MoMS & Kata Master Monk
3. MoMS & Kata Master Monk
4. Vivisectionist Alchemist
5. Vivisectionist Alchemist
6. Lore Warden Fighter
7. Lore Warden Fighter
8. Vivisectionist Alchemist
9. Huntmaster Cavalier
10-16. Vivisectionist Alchemist
Half-elf with Favored Classes Monk & Alchemist

Feats (so far, subject to change)
1. Fast Learner | Skill Focus: Alchemy (Racial Feat)
2. Kirin Style - Bonus MoMS Feat)
3. Nature Soul / Kirin Strike Bonus MoMS Feat
4. ---
5. Animal Ally - Dog
6. Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike (Fighter Bonus Feat)
7. Boon Companion (Dog) / Combat Expertise (Lore Warden) / Boar Style (Fighter Bonus Feat)
8. --
9. Huntsmaster (Birds) / Pack Attack (Tactician Feat)
10. --
11. Toxicological Timing
12. --
13. Improved Toxicological Timing
14. --
15. Friend to Animals (Thematic, might take it earlier)

Alchemist discoveries:
Vestigial Arm
Sticky Poison
Poison Conversion
Malignant Poison

Animal Companions & Effective Levels
Dog 12
Bird 5
Bird 3