Dual wielding penalties and attack bonus question

[Soul Reaver]

So uh, I had an argument with my DM recently about the penalties of dual wielding. He says the penalty for attacking with the main hand and off hand weapons gives the usual dual wielding penalty mentioned in the rulebook -on top- of a -5 from the second attack, which makes no sense to me. This is as a level 1 character, using the extra attack from two weapon fighting. He also says you have to make a full-round action to attack with both but that's more understandable although I still have my doubts.

He says the same thing about the bloodrager's claws, for example. A bloodrager with abyssal or draconic bloodline has natural claws while in bloodrage, and the book says that with a full-round action they can attack with both. The Dm says the second attack gets a -5 to the attack bonus.

He justifies this with how second attacks due to sheer high base attack bonus works, where after +6 to the attack bonus, you get a second attack at +1 and so on, but still.

Thanks for listening.

[chaoseffect]

He is wrong about everything except you needing to do a full attack to get extra attacks via two weapon fighting.

[Jeff Merola]

The full round action to attack with both is correct, however the penalty is incorrect. Assuming you have TWF and are using a light weapon in your offhand (and no extra attacks from high bab), the grand total of your penalty is -2/-2.

Natural attacks are slightly different, as they're all made with no penalty unless you mix them with manufactured weapons, in which case they take a -5.

[Scavion]

Natural Primary attacks such as the ones the Bloodrager gains are all made at full Base Attack bonus.

As for Two Weapon Fighting this is how it goes.

A 2nd level Fighter with a 10 Strength with the Two Weapon Fighting feat attacks with two light weapons which are only at a -2 when two weapon fighting with them.

His two attacks are made at +0 and +0 since his Base attack bonus is a +2 and he receives a -2 from two weapon fighting with light weapons.

[NikolaiJuno]

You should show your DM the Monk's Flurry of Blows by level list because it uses the same penalties as TWF with light weapons, and it gets two attacks at -2.

The Bloodrager would get -5 with both the claws, but only if they're used with manufactured weapon attacks, otherwise they're both done at full.

[Gullyble Dwarf - Lvl 7 DM]

Furthermore to the above, you never get additional attacks when using natural weapons. The -5 for additional attacks comes from the additional attacks you get for you BAB (Base Attack Bonus) being greater than 5 as you noted. Natural attacks do not benefit from this and the -5 (or multiples there are) only applies to the additional attacks generated from your BAB being greater than 5. This can apply to additional offhand attacks you get from things like Improved Two Weapon Fighting as you only get that additional attack when your BAB is greater than 5.

[Elicoor]

1. To attack when dual wielding, you have to make a full attack action. If your BAB is 5 or lower, you are allowed 1 attack with your main hand weapon and 1 attack with your offhand weapon. Both these attacks get penalties according to the dual wielding chart.

If your BAB is higher than 5 , you're allowed more than 1 attack with your main hand weapon, and these main hand attacks get both the dual wielding penalties and the -5/-10/-15 from cumulative attacks.
The first attack with the second hand does not get any penalties except for the dual wielding penalties. (If you have the good feats, you can get cumulative offhand attacks, which then get the -5/-10... from)

There might be a feat (was it in 3.5?) to attack with both weapons as a standard action.

2. Natural weapons are a different thing. If both claws are considered as primary weapons, the second claw does not get the -5. Some natural attacks are secondary weapons and always get the -5.

3. If there's a mix of natural and manufactured weapons, all natural weapons for which the limb was not used to wield a manufactured weapon are considered as secondary, and get the -5. [i]Ex : you have the natural claws, but you still have a sword in hand. You can attack (full attack action) with both, you have one sword attack and one claw attack, the latter with a -5 bonus and only half your Str modifier)

Feel free to ask if something's unclear for you

[Soul Reaver]

alright, many thanks to all of you guys, this helped solve the issue xD