Scythe Magus

[Be-Holder]

I've some doubts:
-Assuming to have one hand free, will i ever have the chance to Hit with my weap and cast in the same round?

-Assuming to not taking the Scythe, but taking same weapons in both Magus-Build and EK-Build, which will work better?

[Blakmane]

There's a big area between not optimal and nerfed. A scythe is a poor weapon in general outside of some very specific martial builds and/or as a method of coup-de-grace. You will hardly be useless though: it is still a decent damage and high crit multiplier, two handed weapon. Hard to go wrong there.

*edit*

With an EK, you will be casting only using quickened spells and with your capstone at level 12+ (which lets you cast a quickened spell as a swift action when you crit --- thus the falchion).

EK's don't generally cast and attack in the same round. They use buffs and then fight traditionally. Casting in the same round as attacking is a magus thing, generally speaking (which is not achievable using a scythe).

The two builds are comparable. Magus is easier to make and has a more even power curve, but EK gets MUCH better spell access. It all comes out in the wash.

[Be-Holder]

then i should look 'em in this way:

-Magus more melee, easily dealing with spells, restricted spells
-EK more caster, harder dealing with spells, more spells (more utility, more spells known, more versatile)

I've a question 'bout the magus: could he get melee attack + non touch spell in the same round?

[Be-Holder]

Okk...i've finally decided for the EK... is better, no words on... get spells earlier, and also more flavourful.

[kestral287]

Be-Holder wrote:

I've some doubts:

-Assuming to have one hand free, will i ever have the chance to Hit with my weap and cast in the same round?

-Assuming to not taking the Scythe, but taking same weapons in both Magus-Build and EK-Build, which will work better?

1. Yes, when you can Quicken a spell. You can also still take AoOs with your weapon after casting but I doubt that's what you had in mind.

2. Kind of depends on your definition of "work". Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Overall I'd certainly prefer the Magus' superior action economy, but getting 9th level spells is nothing to overlook.

Be-Holder wrote:

then i should look 'em in this way:

-Magus more melee, easily dealing with spells, restricted spells
-EK more caster, harder dealing with spells, more spells (more utility, more spells known, more versatile)

I've a question 'bout the magus: could he get melee attack + non touch spell in the same round?

Yes, the Magus can cast any spell off his list with Spell Combat. At low levels, for example, I'm a big fan of using Spell Combat to cast Daze and attack.

[Be-Holder]

So with Magus you could cast Fireball and then have your melee attack, that's it?

- Going with EK, which class will be my prefered one? Wizard or Fighter?
- At 12th level, when EK will finish, what should i plan to do?
going on multiclassing both Fighter and Wizard? Dip in something else?

[Be-Holder]

Here i
i'm starting with:

Human Fighter lvl1
20BP
_Stats_
STR 16(+2)
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 7

_Skills_
Acrobatics 2(1G+1DEX)
Intimidate 2(1G-2CHA+3C)
Perception 1(1G+0WIS)
Survival 4(1G+0WIS+3C)
Swim 8(1G+4STR+3C)

_Feats_
???

[Blakmane]

You need spellcraft to scribe scrolls into your spell book. I would take that over swim, honestly. Your first feat should be power attack, and whatever else you feel like taking.

Ask your DM if you are allowed traits - you should take magical knack (wizard) if you can, to make sure you stay on top of caster level, plus another one of whatever you want. Otherwise you may have to spend a feat on additional traits to pick up magical knack.

Otherwise, just go for it.

Worry about 12th level when you get there. That's a long while off.

[Be-Holder]

_Feats_
1H Improved Initiative
1F Combat Expertise to go Trip? I don't really know here...
what else then?

Traits we got 2

just to remember, Books Allowed Are:

-CORE RULEBOOK
-APG
-UM
-UC

@edit: Spellcraft is not of fighter class...i must wait 2nd level to put points, am i right?

[Be-Holder]

Books Allowed
-CORE
-APG
-UM
-UC

Human Fighter lvl1
20BP

_Stats_
STR 16(+2)
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 7

_Skills_
Acrobatics 2(1G+1DEX)
Intimidate 2(1G-2CHA+3C)
Perception 1(1G+0WIS)
Survival 4(1G+0WIS+3C)
Swim 8(1G+4STR+3C)

_Feats_
1 Power Attack
1 Weapon Focus (Scythe)
1 Combat Expertise or Improved Initiative or ???
2
4 Arcane Armor Training???
4

_Traits_
Where to start?

_Equipment_
Armor?
Weapon: Scythe 2d4 critX4
Range Weapon: needed?
Other Stuff: what else may i consider?

Any help is welcome.

[Kazaan]

You might look at a combo of the Skirnir Magus archetype along with Phalanx Soldier. Skirnir specializes in shields and, eventually, gets to use his shield hand to cast using Shielded Spell Combat; essentially, your shield arm serves as your "free hand" for casting. You can even cast with a tower shield if you want. Phalanx, at lvl 3, allows you to wield a polearm as a 1-h weapon. Sure, you'll lose 3 levels of Magus progression, but this will allow you to keep Spell Combat while still wielding your scythe. And, if you go for a buckler, you can even 2-h your scythe for times where you want to benefit more from Str and Power Attack. For instance, you can cast Frostbite as part of Shield Spell Combat in one round, then the next round just do a normal full-attack with the scythe two-handed. You won't even need a mithril buckler since Skirnir ignores ASF from shields. Granted, your focus will be more on defense and support. As a shielded magus and not wielding a broad-range crit weapon, you won't be the "shocking grasp dervish dancer" stock magus. Instead, you'll be buffing and debuffing while staying safe behind your shield. Take Wayang Spellhunter for Frostbite (instead of the typical shocking grasp) and you can cast a Rimed Frostbite as a lvl 1 spell. Frostbite will fatigue the target if you hit (with no save) and Rime will entangle them for 1 round (again, no save).

[Be-Holder]

I don't think that loosing 3 lvl of class progression as a good idea.
For the one round cast and the other full attack, i can easily do so using my EK...i don't see why may i prefer do that with a magus with less spells, less versatility, lower spells.

Now i'm blocked on the Armor choice... spell failure scares me a little, but right now i've seen this choices:

-Full Plate
-Breastplate

i think i can afford in mithral if i could justify that by background (one of our Teammates has a Mithral Brestplate)

[arcanine]

Be-Holder wrote:

I don't think that loosing 3 lvl of class progression as a good idea.

For the one round cast and the other full attack, i can easily do so using my EK...i don't see why may i prefer do that with a magus with less spells, less versatility, lower spells.

Now i'm blocked on the Armor choice... spell failure scares me a little, but right now i've seen this choices:

-Full Plate
-Breastplate

i think i can afford in mithral if i could justify that by background (one of our Teammates has a Mithral Brestplate)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/still-spell-metamagic---final

it will help make the spells not have arcane failure. after that your good to go. pass on arcane armor wear any armor you want.

[Be-Holder]

Okk..just discovered a bad/good thing: i've misunderstood my Gm's words... i can use all Paizo stuff to create my PC -----> i definitely want to cry now!

Then, not time to loose, my char must be ready for this evening so i'll do my best (and i'll hope in someone's help) to get a useful char!

i think i should make a new post about, assuming i could change class.

[Blakmane]

You can take non-class skills, they just dont' get the +3 class bonus until you have a class that gives you that bonus. This isn't 3.5 where cross class skills cost more.

You should be taking spellcraft every level, even on your fighter levels. Ultimately the fighter level doesn't slow down your level of wizard skills at all.

[BadBird]

Blakmane wrote:

I mean, you're right: they are still playable if optimised and aren't at the very bottom of the tier pack by any means... but anyone capable of that level of optimisation isn't coming to the boards for build advice. Actually encouraging a beginner to play a non-early entry EK over, say, a magus, bard or battle cleric I would consider actively bad advice.

All I suggested was that a Dragon Disciple, potentially with Barbarian 1 and a little Extra Rage, would be a fairly straightforward and effective way to build an arcane Scythe warrior. Advice based on reading up on what the OP said they originally wanted to do, and then trying to help them do it...

[LazarX]

LoneKnave wrote:

Mithral bucklers have 0% spell failure chance. So you are fine there.

No he's not. Remember that "one hand" free requirement? The buckler has to be wielded to get a shield benefit so that hand is not free.

[LoneKnave]

Quote:

Benefit: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

You lose the armor class bonus but I don't see why you'd stop actually using it.

EDIT: let's put it another way. ASF also depends on using the shield, right? You don't get ASF if you are just holdiong it in one hand and casting with the other. Would you remove the ASF from normal bucklers if they were used to cast spells because "well, you are not using it, just holding it!"?

[Arachnofiend]

LazarX wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

I think the real question here is why there isn't a Magus archetype that trades out Spell Combat for something that works with 2-handers.

Possibly because Spell Combat is the defining aspect of the Magus? It would be like asking for a Wizard archetype that deletes prepared spell-casting altogether.

I actually think of Spellstrike before I think of Spell Combat, personally. That might just be me, though.

[Blakmane]

LoneKnave wrote:

Quote:

Benefit: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.

You lose the armor class bonus but I don't see why you'd stop actually using it.

EDIT: let's put it another way. ASF also depends on using the shield, right? You don't get ASF if you are just holdiong it in one hand and casting with the other. Would you remove the ASF from normal bucklers if they were used to cast spells because "well, you are not using it, just holding it!"?

I assume lazarx is talking specifically about spell combat, which does mention the off hand has to be completely empty --- so the buckler would not work.

[LoneKnave]

Has to have the hand free, and the buckler hand counts as free for spellcasting/using weapons with TWF (so basically everything that counts here). Which makes sense, since PF bucklers are just small shields strapped to your forearm instead of actual bucklers that you hold.

[LazarX]

LoneKnave wrote:

Has to have the hand free, and the buckler hand counts as free for spellcasting/using weapons with TWF (so basically everything that counts here). Which makes sense, since PF bucklers are just small shields strapped to your forearm instead of actual bucklers that you hold.

The buckler penalises attack roles with the weapon wielded in that hand, so it's still a form of baggage on two weapon fighting and a drag to that hand.

You CAN NOT use a buckler with spell combat, unless you're of the skirinir magus archetype.

[boring7]

Well, you CAN, you just can't get the AC bonus from it while doing it and take a penalty to attack rolls.

Better to make your shield your weapon, use improved shield bash, and spell combat with the other hand.

[Cyrad]

Have you ever considered using a kama? Or maybe just using a battleaxe and calling it a scythe? Or a Small scythe, which would let you wield it as a one-handed weapon?

[Kazaan]

Ask if you can snag the Monkey Grip feat from 3.5; it lets you wield a 2-h weapon one-handed.

[Blakmane]

boring7 wrote:

Well, you CAN, you just can't get the AC bonus from it while doing it and take a penalty to attack rolls.

Better to make your shield your weapon, use improved shield bash, and spell combat with the other hand.

No, you can't. Spellcombat specifies the hand must be free. All a buckler lets you do is cast spells with somatic components without penalty, but spellcombat knocks that precedent down:

To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components)

[LoneKnave]

Your hand is free. It can hold and manipulate items. It only gives a -1 when you TWF. It Is much like the cestus, in this way.

[wraithstrike]

The devs have said the intent was for the magus to only use one handed and light weapons. They tried to plug up any loopholes also. So even if someone finds a loophole they missed it will only result in errata to plug that loophole.

[Blakmane]

Like wraithstrike mentions, the devs have explicitly stated the intent is for the hand the be completely empty.

Interesting you mention the cestus, because cestus spellcombat has been done to death on the forums. Most of the threads I had a quick read of concluded much the same as wraith and I.