Goblin Squad Member
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There are a lot of guides out there about how to create your character (available here) which include pages of excel sheets on every option in PFO. If you visit the forums, you will find a variety of opinions about the game (including haters) but my goal here is to help new players know how to enjoy the game. Here are the top 5 things to consider (there are more, but here is where to start):
1. Realize the game is being developed as we play. Ryan calls it 2 years into a 5 year development cycle, but the bottom line is that we are building an airplane while flying. Things will break, and it is our job as players to constructively help Goblin Works create the game. You will see Ryan (CEO Goblin Works), Lisa (CEO Paizo) and all the devs in the game. They read the boards, talk to us in chat, and even go out adventuring with us. Share your opinions (appropriately) and help build the game. Give them a break when things break, because it is still being developed.
2. Realize it is a game. We are all here to have fun, and we have it in different ways. Pick your way to enjoy the game, but don't make it your life. Don't take PVP personally. It is a open sandbox style MMORPG. This means people will shoot you for no more reason then they are bored, or they want what you have. Choose if you want to be part of PVP or not, but realize it is a game. If you die you may lose some items, but you are instantly revived, and it really doesn't matter.
3. There are too many character options in the game. PFO is a game with more options then you know what to do with. Luckily you gain 100 XP an hour, so if you 'buy' the wrong thing, a couple hours later you can buy something else. If you really want to plan every move out, follow the excel sheets and have fun doing math. The decision you need to make is what type of character you want to make. Do you want to focus on Player V Player (PVP), Player V Environment (PVE), Crafting (either making items or refined goods), or Gathering (picking up refined supplies). Luckily you get three character slots (and you can delete characters) so you can try other things.
4. When you have decided what you want to be, and how you want to play, you need to find a company to play with. It is a multiplayer game and having an active company to play with is a big part of the fun. There is a list of companies here but the big thing is to find one that matches your play style (and in some cases, time zone). Companies control settlements, and can be found across the map and in all sizes and types There are large companies/settlements with 100+ members (such as The Empyrean Order/Brighthaven or Golgotha) and then the smaller ones (such as Hoff's Path/RiverBank). Read the forums, and reach out to the company you think fits you best. You really want to join one ASAP as they will provide support in the hard first couple of weeks.
5. When all else fails, ask for help. There is a channel for help, and both GMs and players are willing to help. I know that many players including myself (Hoffman) and others (such as Fiery) actively watch help to try to help in any way we can. Ask silly qeustions. We have all been there, and even though we are all essentially new, and the game keeps changing, we are trying to help.
Have Fun! (and don't be a Jerk!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Great list Axi. Every day I meet new players who are looking for some direction and are having questions about the game that are answered very eloquently in your post.
#4 is the most important over all. Plug into a community that will help you get started in the game, equip you and start getting into the meat of the content that the game offers, which is building a strong organization.
If you want to be part of the largest, best equppied and well run PvP settlement check out Golgotha at Xeilias.com
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Goblin Squad Member
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A couple of things that I think new players will have initial problems with(a lot have to do with nomenclature):
"Expendables"; for me, and a lot of non-tabletop, Themepark infused MMO-gamers Expendables mean "something consumable, most likely a one-use Spellscroll" rather then the *Spells* that they actually are.
Even after two years I have to mentally translate "Expendable" into "Spell" every time someone mentions it. ("Expendables are not Consumables, Expendables are not Consumables,..")
Power: ok, this has been used before in other MO's but let us face it, it's *Mana*. ;) Not a big deal.
"Keywords": The first problem is that people will initially think that an item that has "Provoking" on it, probably means that it has some kind of Taunt effect. And "Penetrating" surely must mean a bonus to Attack.
After they have learned that they are just cool names used for a Matching system, they will hit the real wall: the fact that for Combat there are 5 game systems, 3 of which use keywords in slightly different ways, with 2 systems using the well known "more ++ is better" while another system uses both Keywords but also "more ++ is better". Never mind the incomprehensable math that surrounds the Tiers and Masterwork/Major keywords. Here are the systems:
- Armor and weapon-matching: this uses the ++-system for keyword-matching. Pretty straightforward once you get it, exept for the confusing Tier/Major keyword thing. What still constantly throws me off, is that a +0 armor or weapon can actually be your "first" matched keyword, and thus *do* something. So, when matched, zero(+) does match one. One(+) does match two and so forth. This is somewhat unintuitive.
- Expendable-matching: first off, these do not match with the Implement that they are put on (unintuitive) but with the Role Feat. Expandables also do not have ++, they have levels, which determine the amount of keywords that can be matched. So different. This system also uses less keywords total then the Armor/weapon system.
- Utilities: these skills use a similar keyword matching as Armor and Weapons, since they are looking for keywords on items: but these are looking for keywords on several items, namely your other gear. Also more + on an item will not match more keywords. Instead, Misc. gear uses the ++-system for enchantments. What also makes this different is the progression: maxing out any Utility skill in matched keywords will take you across all Tiers. But this may change once more items are introduced.
- Implements: this uses the "more ++ is better" system to indicate it can hold more levels of Spells. I mean Expendables. ;)
- Consumables: this uses the "more ++ is better" system.
"Conditions": The fact that conditions (buffs, debuffs) all have their own name("Oblivious") that still has to be translated to the stuff we can actually work with: attack- and Perception debuff.
I would like to see a description that immediately makes clear what something does.
"Stacks" For me this is a new concept, still a bit hard to understand. First off, the word itself, and how it is used. Isn't a single stack indicating something that is already made out of several units? "60 stacks" of something indicates more then just 60 of something.
What I understand is, more stacks is a stronger debuff/buff, but also longer duration if you have a big stack on you? I realize that stacks are extremely important for how combat works: action/counteraction, stacking of debuffs, Rock, Paper, Scissors. But because there are also "durations" like (2 rounds) it can be confusing. I think more can be done here in the tooltips: use seconds, explain that Oblivious 60 means that you are trying to decrease someone's Attackvalue with 60 stacks. Or rather points. There are probably more subtleties that you can not really explain in a tooltip but still.
"Utility"; another example of somewhat confusing nomenclature. When I think of a Utility, I think of a Blender. :) I would not have thought that a "Utility" is actually a skill that is related to your other gear, so not your armor or weapon. It also seems that it is somehow related to your Boots and Gloves, but it's actually not: that description "Utillity"[Boot] just means that this is a more defensive skill while Utillity [Gloves] are more "actiony" skills. So these skills will actually be looking for keywords all over your gear(Neck, Ring etcetera). The blender thing was a joke obviously, however in other games I would link the word utility to utility-spells, like "Gaze" which increases magnification by 50% in Everquest (stuff looks closer, kinda cool).
I am not going into stuff like EPow and such, because I think players do not really need to understand that stuff. Every MMO has very complicated math under the hood so that's par for the course.
I am just talking about how gamesytems sometimes feel a bit unintuitive in some of their implementation, and also the sometimes confusing nomenclature.
I am not saying people are too stupid to learn all this, but we are a long way yet from PFO being accessable for the masses.
PFO is hard to master, which is fine but currently it is also "hard to get into".
Disclaimer: I am off course only talking from my own perspective. I realize that most everyone here is extremely knowledgable about PFO and probably wonder what I am talking about most of the time. Also, tabletop veterans (I am not). I also want to add that I think a lot of the systems also add Uniqueness to PFO. I like the mechanics, I actually like all the cool names. I am not advocating to change the systems: on the contrary. And I also realize that we have a long way to go yet. I also want to add that the tooltips have improved humongously in the last 2 months. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks Tyncale and Ryan for the additions. With a lot of new players today, it seems like people are struggling. The first step really is to read the new player guide and 'Cheatle's' guide. Available here: http://tinyurl.com/cheatle.
Hoffman will also be online in help all day if people need assistance. There is usually someone from Hoff's Path or The Empyrean Order hanging out in help, so just ask a question and someone can help.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A couple of things that I think new players will have initial problems with(a lot have to do with nomenclature):
[/list]...
Excellent break down Tyncale! Every new player should read this IMO. They won't actually understand every thing the first time through. After playing for a week, they should come back and read again. It should really sink in then. :)
Good thread all around.
-Erik
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Goblin Squad Member
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A couple of things that I think new players will have initial problems with(a lot have to do with nomenclature):
[/list]...Excellent break down Tyncale! Every new player should read this IMO. They won't actually understand every thing the first time through. After playing for a week, they should come back and read again. It should really sink in then. :)
Good thread all around.
-Erik
Thanks! I realize that the things I wrote already assume a pretty deep knowledge of the game. I am referring to a lot of stuff without explaining the basics of that. I made a similar post about how Utilities work, and that was mostly to see if I got it right for myself, not so much a Guide for a new player. So same issue there.
I *do* feel the urge to explain some of the basics I refer to, more in depth when I write something like this: the problem is, there are people here that have a much better grasp of those basics, and are also more up to date about them then I am. So I could easily make a fool out myself and more importantly, cause confusion by telling un-truths, or out of date stuff; so not helping anyone with that.
So I just write my posts from the perspective of the "veteran-newbie", who is still confused himself about a lot of stuff, but hopes to put the finger on some of the sorer spots so that the real newbie can feel that he is not alone. :)
6. It is easier to mine copper or coal from a husk, than to run all over a hex collecting it.
:-)
In all seriousness, though, to new folks, get used to the idea that your gatherer won't always make it home safely. There are certain places where people exert territorial control over nearby resources, even at the expense of rep.
Sometimes, shorter more frequent gathering trips will net you more resources (and your opponents fewer resources) than a long gathering session.
You have to weigh travel time versus doing all that gathering for nothing if/when you get attacked by people who have rule #6 tattooed on the back of their hand.
When I reach my favorite gathering hexes, the first thing I look for are mobile nodes gatherers who will save me all the hassle of gathering for myself.
7. Don't let it get personal. Some of us will exploit that.
Ok, so someone just shot you for mining their favorite coal hex. Don't run PAST your own husk to try and get revenge. You'll just get kited 5 hexes while the gal you chase is having friends loot your husk and another friend meet along your path to unleash on your face as you run by, too transfixed on the gal you are chasing. Assume that everyone is on voice-comms, and learn from experience how long certain groups take to mobilize. Some groups are very very eager to rush to any action, no matter how insignificant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would also like to point out that the Gathering professions are a perfect, if not an obligatory fit for a Combat profession, looking both at the Ability and the Achievement requirements that you need in order to get a Gathering profession all the way to the top.
Currently you will need Adventure=129 to train for level 20 in any gathering profession, or Adventure=78 to train level 15, if you do not want to go that high. With the current Achievements, if you would *only* gather with a certain character, you will not earn enough Adventure points and hit a wall at some point, lacking either enough Adventure points, or your Wis(Forester, Scavenger), Con(Miner) or Pers(Dowser) is too low, because you did not train any other skills that are related to those Abilities.
The Ability requirement can be solved by pairing up with the appropriate crafting or refining skill, but the Adventure achievements need to be gotten out in the wild (killing mobs, players).
So I am pairing my Smelter(con) with Mining(Con) and a Fighter (Con), so I can get loads of Adventuring points too.
The good thing about this is, that you have some ways of defending yourself.
Important note: in my case(with the paired up Smelter/Miner for Con) it is not necessary to take the COmbat profession to very high levels, since they will add more mobs, and every new mob-type will probably open up new Adventure-achievements. I'm sure a low Tier 2 fighter will be able to earn enough Adventure points easily at some point. You could even try to get the adventure points by only blasting low level camps with Mage/Hide and banded/shadowblast, though this can be a long (and expensive when ammo comes online) proces if you want to reach the higher levels of those Advanture achievements.
They will also add more achievements later ons, so do not read the above as gospel. There may be other ways to improve Con and/or earn Adventure points in the future.
Edit: changed Dex into Wis for the Scavenger and Forester professions.
Correction, WIS is the stat for Forester and Scavenger, not Dex.
Which is why so many disappointed-with-their-class clerics have turned to gathering.
When do I know that it's time to find a better weapon? That's really not clicking for me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When do I know that it's time to find a better weapon? That's really not clicking for me.
Great question, and it goes along with a couple others that may be part of a translation of tabletop to PFO:
*How do I improve my ability score so I hit harder?
*I am now level <X> how do I get <Y>
*How do I get to level <X>
*Why does <X> class do <Y>
So here is the low down for those who play tabletop (as I do) and try to translate it: Don't.
Ability scores are 'gates' to further training. Training raises your ability scores, and that allows you to get more training, but it does not directly impact your skills. I.e. raising your strength by 1 does not by itself increase your damage, but it does allow you to get other attacks that might.
Levels don't really matter either. Moving up in level is more of a 'counter' of progress than anything else. You earn XP at 100 per hour (as long as your account is active, you don't have to be logged in and gain 24x7), and then you need certain achievements to be able to train other things. Levels will naturally go up, but a level 4 fighter is not necessarily better than a level 3, they just have trained the skills or feats to get to level 4.
Classes at the same time don't really matter. PFO is created in such a way to encourage multi classing (or really multi, multi classing). Be whatever you want.
When do you need better weapons or gear? When you train attacks or armor feats that can use the new gear. (check out the massive excel sheets at http://tinyurl.com/cheatle
Also, don't worry about spending your XP 'wrong'. You gain xp at 100 an hour, so even if you make a 'bad' choice, tomorrow you can make another choice. Right now there is no way to retrain (and I wouldn't expect a way) so just use tomorrow's XP to make a better choice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The bit about "stacks of stacks" seems to be shorthand that developed among MMO programmers, who tend to care more about the syntax of programming languages than the syntax of English.
It could have evolved from "a stack of stacking effect units" to "a stack of units", but instead it became "a stack of stacks".
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Goblin Squad Member
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When do I know that it's time to find a better weapon? That's really not clicking for me.
If you're currently using a +1 weapon, you'll get maximum effectiveness from attack feats that are trained to Rank 2. When you start training your attacks to Rank 3, it's time to start looking for a +2 weapon.
Edit: If I'm not mistaken, there's a weird hitch in the system a little further along, where you might as well switch to a Tier 2 weapon instead of getting a Tier 1 weapon with an additional plus, but I'll let someone else explain that.
When do I know that it's time to find a better weapon? That's really not clicking for me.Great question, and it goes along with a couple others that may be part of a translation of tabletop to PFO:
*How do I improve my ability score so I hit harder?
*I am now level <X> how do I get <Y>
*How do I get to level <X>
*Why does <X> class do <Y>So here is the low down for those who play tabletop (as I do) and try to translate it: Don't.
Ability scores are 'gates' to further training. Training raises your ability scores, and that allows you to get more training, but it does not directly impact your skills. I.e. raising your strength by 1 does not by itself increase your damage, but it does allow you to get other attacks that might.
Levels don't really matter either. Moving up in level is more of a 'counter' of progress than anything else. You earn XP at 100 per hour (as long as your account is active, you don't have to be logged in and gain 24x7), and then you need certain achievements to be able to train other things. Levels will naturally go up, but a level 4 fighter is not necessarily better than a level 3, they just have trained the skills or feats to get to level 4.
Classes at the same time don't really matter. PFO is created in such a way to encourage multi classing (or really multi, multi classing). Be whatever you want.
Okay, um, I'm still confused, but I think you answered the wrong question.
When do you need better weapons or gear? When you train attacks or armor feats that can use the new gear. (check out the massive excel sheets at http://tinyurl.com/cheatle
Thanks, this is what I was looking for.
When do I know that it's time to find a better weapon? That's really not clicking for me.If you're currently using a +1 weapon, you'll get maximum effectiveness from attack feats that are trained to Rank 2. When you start training your attacks to Rank 3, it's time to start looking for a +2 weapon.
Edit: If I'm not mistaken, there's a weird hitch in the system a little further along, where you might as well switch to a Tier 2 weapon instead of getting a Tier 1 weapon with an additional plus, but I'll let someone else explain that.
Perfect! Thanks, Karl (and Axi—sorry your big post wasn't what I was looking for).
So I need to get a +1 weapon...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Attacks trained to Rank 1 = use a Tier 1 +0 weapon.
Attacks trained to Rank 2 = use Tier 1 +1 weapon.
Attacks trained to Rank 3 = use Tier 1 +2 weapon.
Hopefully, someone else can fill in the next couple of steps, especially the step when it becomes better to move up to a Tier 2 weapon than to get a Tier 1 weapon with a higher plus value.
So higher Tiers have more keywords, right?
Do keyword bonuses stack? So, if I have a weapon with Keyword A and B, and an attack with Keyword A and B, do I get the damage bonuses from both?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So higher Tiers have more keywords, right?
Do keyword bonuses stack? So, if I have a weapon with Keyword A and B, and an attack with Keyword A and B, do I get the damage bonuses from both?
More pluses have more keywords.
Higher tier gives the Masterwork keyword, which is worth four normal keywords.
Tier 2 with pluses gives both Masterwork and the lesser keywords.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes.
A T3+3 dagger has minor keywords Piercing, Precise, Light, and Penetrating, and major keywords Masterwork and Hasted. If a 2-week old player with a rank 3 dagger attack which can activate Piercing, Precise, and Light picked up that dagger, he would get the benefit of 3 keywords (base damage +15).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Attacks trained to Rank 1 = use a Tier 1 +0 weapon.
Attacks trained to Rank 2 = use Tier 1 +1 weapon.
Attacks trained to Rank 3 = use Tier 1 +2 weapon.Hopefully, someone else can fill in the next couple of steps, especially the step when it becomes better to move up to a Tier 2 weapon than to get a Tier 1 weapon with a higher plus value.
OK fine, here's the complete info.
Every attack starts with a base damage of 40, and then you add 5 to that for each keyword which is matched between your attack feat and your equipped weapon. (Major keywords earned for upgrading to T2 and T3 gear count as 20 damage each.)
Rank 1 training activates +0 keywords
Rank 2 training activates +1 keywords
Rank 3 training activates +2 keywords
Rank 4 training activates T2 major keywords
Rank 5 training activates +3 keywords
Rank 6 training activates T3 major keywords
So, to figure out how strong your attack is, find the line for the WORSE of your trained feat rank and your equipped weapon.
Rank 1 attack feat: T1 +0 weapon : 1 keyword : 45 base damage
Rank 2 attack feat: T1 +1 weapon : 2 keywords: 50 base damage
Rank 3 attack feat: T1 +2 weapon : 3 keywords: 55 base damage
Rank 5 attack feat: T1 +3 weapon : 4 keywords: 60 base damage
Rank 4 attack feat: T2 +0 weapon : 1 kw +1 mk: 65 base damage
Rank 4 attack feat: T2 +1 weapon : 2 kw +1 mk: 70 base damage
Rank 4 attack feat: T2 +2 weapon : 3 kw +1 mk: 75 base damage
Rank 5 attack feat: T2 +3 weapon : 4 kw +1 mk: 80 base damage
Rank 6 attack feat: T3 +0 weapon : 1 kw +2 mk: 85 base damage
Rank 6 attack feat: T3 +1 weapon : 2 kw +2 mk: 90 base damage
Rank 6 attack feat: T3 +2 weapon : 3 kw +2 mk: 95 base damage
Rank 6 attack feat: T3 +3 weapon : 4 kw +2 mk: 100 base damage
So if you have your attack feat trained to rank 4, you could wield a Tier 1 +2 weapon for 55 base damage. A Tier 1 +3 weapon would give you the same 55 base damage because you don't have the training to unlock the +3 keyword yet.
All of this assumes that you are using a weapon which exactly matches the keyword progression of your attack feats. With physical weapons, this is always true, since you can't use an axe attack while wielding a longsword anyway. However, wizard cantrips and cleric orisons have an additional wrinkle: there are multiple spell families and different casting weapons for each family, and if you slot an "elemental" orison in your "occult" focus you will only get a partial match.
Here's the progression for mismatched caster feats:
Rank 1 attack feat: T1 +0 weapon : 1 keyword : 45 base damage
Rank 3 attack feat: T1 +2 weapon : 2 keywords: 50 base damage
Rank 4 attack feat: T2 +0 weapon : 1 kw +1 mk: 65 base damage
Rank 4 attack feat: T2 +2 weapon : 2 kw +1 mk: 70 base damage
Rank 6 attack feat: T3 +0 weapon : 1 kw +2 mk: 85 base damage*
Rank 6 attack feat: T3 +2 weapon : 2 kw +2 mk: 90 base damage*
(Note that in the specific case of the Mental family of cantrips/weapons, a mismatch will NOT match on the T3 keyword, so don't use the starred entries if you are slotting a Mental cantrip into a non-Psychic weapon or vice versa.)
So the Masterwork keyword basically means you get four bonus keywords? Or you get a +20 if you manage to have the matching Tier 2 keyword-bearing attack?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Attacks trained to Rank 1 = use a Tier 1 +0 weapon.
Attacks trained to Rank 2 = use Tier 1 +1 weapon.
Attacks trained to Rank 3 = use Tier 1 +2 weapon.Hopefully, someone else can fill in the next couple of steps, especially the step when it becomes better to move up to a Tier 2 weapon than to get a Tier 1 weapon with a higher plus value.
OK fine, here's the complete info.
Every attack starts with a base damage of 40, and then you add 5 to that for each keyword which is matched between your attack feat and your equipped weapon. (Major keywords earned for upgrading to T2 and T3 gear count as 20 damage each.)
Rank 1 training activates +0 keywords
Rank 2 training activates +1 keywords
Rank 3 training activates +2 keywords
Rank 4 training activates T2 major keywords
Rank 5 training activates +3 keywords
Rank 6 training activates T3 major keywordsSo, to figure out how strong your attack is, find the line for the WORSE of your trained feat rank and your equipped weapon.
Rank 1 attack feat: T1 +0 weapon : 1 keyword : 45 base damage
Rank 2 attack feat: T1 +1 weapon : 2 keywords: 50 base damage
Rank 3 attack feat: T1 +2 weapon : 3 keywords: 55 base damage
Rank 5 attack feat: T1 +3 weapon : 4 keywords: 60 base damage
Rank 4 attack feat: T2 +0 weapon : 1 kw +1 mk: 65 base damage
Rank 4 attack feat: T2 +1 weapon : 2 kw +1 mk: 70 base damage
Rank 4 attack feat: T2 +2 weapon : 3 kw +1 mk: 75 base damage
Rank 5 attack feat: T2 +3 weapon : 4 kw +1 mk: 80 base damage
Rank 6 attack feat: T3 +0 weapon : 1 kw +2 mk: 85 base damage
Rank 6 attack feat: T3 +1 weapon : 2 kw +2 mk: 90 base damage
Rank 6 attack feat: T3 +2 weapon : 3 kw +2 mk: 95 base damage
Rank 6 attack feat: T3 +3 weapon : 4 kw +2 mk: 100 base damageSo if you have your attack feat trained to rank 4, you could wield a Tier 1 +2 weapon for 55 base damage. A Tier 1 +3 weapon would give you the same 55 base damage because you don't have the training to unlock the +3 keyword yet.
All of this assumes...
Thanks!
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Goblin Squad Member
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So the Masterwork keyword basically means you get four bonus keywords? Or you get a +20 if you manage to have the matching Tier 2 keyword-bearing attack?
Yes. The T2 Keyword is equivalent to four "minor" keywords.
No, if you have a T2 weapon, at worst you will have +25, +20 from the major keyword and another 5 from the +0 keyword.
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Goblin Squad Member
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if you have a T2 weapon, at worst you will have +25, +20 from the major keyword and another 5 from the +0 keyword.
Assuming that you have a T2 (rank 4 or higher) attack to match it. A T2 weapon in the hands of a newby with a rank 1 attack will perform no better than a +0 from a goblin drop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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if you have a T2 weapon, at worst you will have +25, +20 from the major keyword and another 5 from the +0 keyword.Assuming that you have a T2 (rank 4 or higher) attack to match it. A T2 weapon in the hands of a newby with a rank 1 attack will perform no better than a +0 from a goblin drop.
Yup.
High-powered weapon and insufficient training = only as effective as your training allows.
Advanced training and a less powerful weapon = only as effective as your weapon allows.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Its also worth noting that the higher "plus" items in T1 give a nice but not amazing edge.
Therefore do not sell everything you own to buy a T1 +1 Greatsword or longbow, its a little better than a +0 but not THAT much better. The time to start using a +1 or +2 weapon regularly is the point at which you or a friend can easily make them or you have some other ready source (like the AH once it is working).
The exception is where the increment from the plus crosses a threshold, for example a +2 longbow with good skills using Overdraw can instant kill low levels like goblins and omega wolves without alerting the rest of the pack. That is a tactical advantage worth getting a +2 weapon for.
T2 weapons and armor (unlike higher plus T1)are substantially better but again not something to use regularly until you have a replacement source.
Let's see if I've got this straight:
If I have a Rank 1 keyword ability and a +1 weapon with the same keyword, I get no bonus.
If I have a Rank 2 keyword ability and a +0 weapon with the same keyword, I do get the bonus, though I'm not taking advantage of my ability.
Amendment: Recent threads have led me to conclude that the first statement is false.
If I have a Rank 1 keyword attack and a +1 weapon with the same keyword, I do get the bonus, but only if said keyword is listed first between the two keywords it gets.
Actually, I misread it. Still not sure about that.
On another note, it sounds like martial characters don't really have to worry about keywords as long as they keep to their favorite weapon?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let's see if I've got this straight:
If I have a Rank 1 keyword ability and a +1 weapon with the same keyword, I get no bonus.
Rank 1 abilities get no benefit from a better plus weapon. Rank 1 abilities have one keyword, the same one the +0 version of the weapon gets. It thus works the same on a +1 or +2 wep as it would on a generic free +0 weapon. There is no benefit whatsoever equipping the +1 weapon.
If I have a Rank 2 keyword ability and a +0 weapon with the same keyword, I do get the bonus, though I'm not taking advantage of my ability.
Rank 2 ability provide no benefit on a +0 weapon. A +0 weapon has only one keyword so regardless of whether an attack is +2 or even +5 they will all do the same damage on a +0 weapon as a Rank 1 attack. You get no benefit training an attack higher than level 1 unless you also equip a higher plus weapon.
Rank 1 abilities get no benefit from a better plus weapon. Rank 1 abilities have one keyword, the same one the +0 version of the weapon gets. It thus works the same on a +1 or +2 wep as it would on a generic free +0 weapon.Let's see if I've got this straight:
If I have a Rank 1 keyword ability and a +1 weapon with the same keyword, I get no bonus.
Ah, I see. So I would potentially get a +5 to damage, but I'd do the same with a +0.
Rank 2 ability provide no benefit on a +0 weapon. A +0 weapon has only one keyword so regardless of whether an attack is +2 or even +5 they will all do the same damage on a +0 weapon as a Rank 1 attack.
So like I said, I can get the +5, but I'm not taking full advantage of the ability since I'm wasting one of the ability's keywords. Basically, it's the previous statement in reverse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Amendment: Recent threads have led me to conclude that the first statement is false.If I have a Rank 1 keyword attack and a +1 weapon with the same keyword, I do get the bonus, but only if said keyword is listed first between the two keywords it gets.
Actually, I misread it. Still not sure about that.
On another note, it sounds like martial characters don't really have to worry about keywords as long as they keep to their favorite weapon?
The weapon type and matching attacks are more obvious for martial characters. A longsword attack is only a longsword attack and cannot be used on another weapon and visa versa.
Therefore a martial character merely needs to match the attack level to the weapon plus. If its a +2 Longsword you need to train your attacks to 3 etc etc
Wizard/clerics are different - there are 4 types of staff for example and whilst all staff spells will sort of work on all staffs you need to match the spell type to staff type (in addition to getting the right "plus") to get max damage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let's see if I've got this straight:
If I have a Rank 1 keyword ability and a +1 weapon with the same keyword, I get no bonus.
If I have a Rank 2 keyword ability and a +0 weapon with the same keyword, I do get the bonus, though I'm not taking advantage of my ability.
If you have a Rank 2 Attack, that same Keyword won't appear on a +0 Weapon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rank 1 abilities get no benefit from a better plus weapon. Rank 1 abilities have one keyword, the same one the +0 version of the weapon gets. It thus works the same on a +1 or +2 wep as it would on a generic free +0 weapon.Let's see if I've got this straight:
If I have a Rank 1 keyword ability and a +1 weapon with the same keyword, I get no bonus.
Ah, I see. So I would potentially get a +5 to damage, but I'd do the same with a +0.
So like I said, I can get the +5, but I'm not taking full advantage of the ability since I'm wasting one of the ability's keywords. Basically, it's the previous statement in reverse.Rank 2 ability provide no benefit on a +0 weapon. A +0 weapon has only one keyword so regardless of whether an attack is +2 or even +5 they will all do the same damage on a +0 weapon as a Rank 1 attack.
Well the "plus" sort of refers to keywords not damage. A +3 staff has 3 extra minor keywords you can match rather than just adding +3 to damage.
Each keyword that matches does something. For attacks that "something" is usually adding a set amount to base damage before modifiers. You probably will end up doing more like 20 or 30 more damage per keyword matched not just one.
Important concept is this. A rank 2 or 3 attack on a +0 weapon works identical to a rank 1 attack. You will see no difference at all until you slot a better weapon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you have a Rank 2 Attack, that same Keyword won't appear on a +0 Weapon.Let's see if I've got this straight:
If I have a Rank 1 keyword ability and a +1 weapon with the same keyword, I get no bonus.
If I have a Rank 2 keyword ability and a +0 weapon with the same keyword, I do get the bonus, though I'm not taking advantage of my ability.
Yep the extra keywords you see on a weapon description are what it CAN get if it is a higher plus. If it is +0 it only HAS one keyword, the first one.
If you have a Rank 2 Attack, that same Keyword won't appear on a +0 Weapon.Let's see if I've got this straight:
If I have a Rank 1 keyword ability and a +1 weapon with the same keyword, I get no bonus.
If I have a Rank 2 keyword ability and a +0 weapon with the same keyword, I do get the bonus, though I'm not taking advantage of my ability.
What? Are you saying Rank 2 Attacks have keywords that don't appear on +0 Weapons? At least one keyword match should be possible.
Possibly confusing: A +0 weapon has one keyword, and rank 1 attack feats match the +0 keyword. Many people consider that to be the default state, and forget about the "free" keyword that everybody gets.
Yeah, that's driving me bonkers.
Well the "plus" sort of refers to keywords not damage. A +3 staff has 3 extra minor keywords
On that note, you mean 4 minor keywords, right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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On that note, you mean 4 minor keywords, right?
If it is a T1 +3 staff it will have 4 minor in total.
It gets the default +0 keyword that all staff (even +0) get and 3 more.
Now if it is a T2 staff it gets more complicated as it gains a major keyword from being T2 which the attack acquires at level 4. Forget that for now, just be aware that training attacks to level 4 gets you a T2 keyword and is no benefit to T1 weps in training level 4 attacks at all.
Thus to USE that +3 staff you actually need to train the attack to level 5. This is why no-one bothers making +3 weps at the moment. No Point.
Simple rules for T1 weapons.
1. The attack should be trained one rank higher than the weapon plus.
2. There is no point taking attacks over 3 or making T1 weapons better than +2 this early in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What? Are you saying Rank 2 Attacks have keywords that don't appear on +0 Weapons? At least one keyword match should be possible.If you have a Rank 2 Attack, that same Keyword won't appear on a +0 Weapon.Let's see if I've got this straight:
If I have a Rank 1 keyword ability and a +1 weapon with the same keyword, I get no bonus.
If I have a Rank 2 keyword ability and a +0 weapon with the same keyword, I do get the bonus, though I'm not taking advantage of my ability.
See this post.
But shouldn't my Rank 2 Attack contain two separate keywords, one of which can count for a +5 to damage with a +0 weapon?
For instance, if I have Rank 2 Round and a +0 dagger, I should still get benefit from the Piercing keyword even if my Precise keyword isn't helping me.
I think we're really misunderstanding each other on this. I am attempting to clarify this statement:
If you have a Rank 2 Attack, that same Keyword won't appear on a +0 Weapon.
This appears to be indicating that keywords on items literally only appear if you are equal to them in "level". Alternatively, it's saying that you cannot use any keywords of a low-level weapon if your attack is ranked too high.
Both of these interpretations seem clearly wrong, using the information everyone else has given me. So I ask again, huh?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, your Rank 2 Feat will include the Keyword that is also present on the +0 Weapon. However, any Keywords that only show up at Rank 2 will not be present on a +0 Weapon.
When you said "a Rank 2 keyword ability", it sounded to me like you were talking about the "Rank 2 Keyword", which will never be present on a +0 Weapon.
Alrighty then. Sorry for the confusion. All this is hard to wrap my head around, but I think I've got it now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One problem is that right now, all Tier 1 weapons have a tool tip that shows all of their possible keywords, from +0 to +5. That's because GW is still working on programming tool tips that match the exact weapon you're holding.
If your weapon is +0, and the tool tip shows the keywords for +0, +1, +2, +3, +4, and +5, then five of those keywords are just teasing you with how much better your weapon could be. A +0 weapon actually only has the +0 keyword. A +2 weapon actually only has the +0, +1 and +2 keywords. The rest of the keywords in the tool tip are just a cruel taunt.
Once the tool tips can gauge the level of your particular item and display only the keywords that item has, it will be a lot easier to understand why a +2 item matches a rank 3 attack.
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Goblin Squad Member
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it's not thread necro if it hasn't bled out.
Alrighty then. Sorry for the confusion. All this is hard to wrap my head around, but I think I've got it now.
I'd recommend you to skip +1 gear and move straight to +2 if you can (both for T1 and for T2).
My summary of keywords:
For weapons: Railroaded
You can't use an attack with the wrong weapon.
Attack levels 1-6 match (T1+0, T1+1, T1+2, T2+2, T2+3, T3+3)
Damage scales as 45,50,55,75,80,100.
Takehome messages: Tier matters more than pluses, and doubly so due to using a better d200 (equivalent to +50 attack bonus) with T2 weapon proficiency. Attack rank 4 is the big one (but you won't be seeing much T2+2 weapons the next month since we can't make them yet).
For armors: Complicated.
You can mix and match armors and feats, and the keywords are often the same but come at different times.
Again, what matters is number of keywords matched, where 'Masterwork' (and the major T3 keywords) counts as 4 keywords. You have to check the actual feats and armor, or you can find guides listing the optimal armors for each armor feat at each level.
Takehome message: tier is more important than pluses - and doubly so because of the +50 defense bonus from T2 armor proficiency.
other stuff
Each plus for your spellbook/implement allows to to hold another level spell/expendable. There is some more math with how class feature keywords interact with these. If you really want to know, ask cheatle.
Each plus for your wondrous items is supposed to increase the effect (or duration) of your utilities, but i'm not sure that is implemented yet.