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Ok, I know that crossbows are strictly better than bows but I've really had the hankering recently to make a crossbow fighter work. I just love the idea, and I have a really sweet double crossbow mini that I've be dying to find a use for.
I've run through a few builds, and this is what I've come up with:
Human
Str: 7
Dex: 18 +2 20
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 7
Triats:
Heirloom Weapon (Double HVY Crossbow)
Reactionary
FIGHTER: CROSSBOWMAN ARCHE
Level 1: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Weapon Focus
Level 2: Improved Unarmed Strike
Level 3: Dazzling Display
Level 4: +1 Dex, Deadly Aim
Level 5: Shatter Defenses
Level 6: Vital Strike
Level 7: Kirin Style
Level 8: Greater Weapon Focus
Level 9: Devastating Strike
Level 10: Kirin Strike
Level 11: Improved Vital Strike
Level 12: Deadly Stroke
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By lvl 12 I assume that I have belt of +4 Dex, Headband of +4 Int, and at least a +1 Flaming double Xbow. I will be firing as a readied standard action to take advantage of the Crossbowman's archetype abilities.
Someone help me with my math here, because the damage per attack seems pretty obscene:
To hit is -4Xbow +12BAB +7Dex +1Magic +1PBS +1WF +1GWF +2Xbow Expert -4 Deadly Aim for +17 total against Flat Footed AC.
Damage will be 3D10[16.5] Vital Strike +6 Devastating Strike +1Magic +D6 Flaming [3.5] +7Dex +2Xbow Expert +1PBS +8DA +8KS for 53 Total damage per bolt.
Double this for Deadly Stroke for 106 damage per bolt, and double it again to an amazing 212 Damage for firing two bolts per attack.
Yes, on my next turn I have to take two move actions to reload the damn thing, but dealing 212 damage every other round is nothing to sneeze at, and that's being pretty conservative with my gear.
What do you guys think of this? Thoughts? Suggestions?
It might just be because it's ridiculously late over here, but there's a problem I can't seem to figure out - how are you always targeting flat-footed AC? Are you spending a full round action using Dazzling Display to make your target Shaken before firing?
Unless we're dealing with a different crossbow (I know there are a couple floating around), picking up Crossbow Mastery would reduce the reload time to a single move action for both bolts, meaning you could fire once per round rather than once every two rounds.
Doesn't Kirin Style take three rounds to start giving you damage?
Doesn't Kirin Style take three rounds to start giving you damage?
Round 1: Use Swift action to activate Kirin Style.
Round 2: Use Swift action to make knowledge check to recognize opponent.Round 3: Use Swift action to apply Intelligence modifier x2 as damage to target after attack hits.
Yup, pretty much. Unless you have the feat that lets you activate a style as a free action... Can't remember the name off-hand.
By my reading Deadly Stroke doesn't stack with Vital Strike; Vital Strike uses the attack action while Deadly Stroke is its own standard action.
Correct. Not only that, but the enemy will not always be flat-footed or stunned, and by level 12 you can get 100 damage per round consistently from a crossbow with the Ace Bolt.
Have to agree with the other critiques. It's a one-trick-pony build that takes two sounds of setup, and everything has to line up perfectly for it to actually use its one trick. Not to mention the massive amount of feats it takes.
To toss out another potential issue with the build, using kirin style reliably means putting five skill points/level into knowledge skills to ensure you can ID your opponents. DC 15 + CR isn't an easy check to make, especially since only one of the five monster-IDing skills is in-class for a Fighter. You also need a good Intimidate to use Dazzling Display (which will be hurt by your dumped charisma). So that puts the absolute bare minimum at 6 skill points/level. And that would mean skimping out on other must-have skills like perception...
Granted, a human with Int investment and an int headband will let you fill in the needed skills, but that means a lot of resources that aren't going into other places. A +4 will save at level 12 is not going to be fun.
I stopped reading after double heavy crossbow on a str 7
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It might just be because it's ridiculously late over here, but there's a problem I can't seem to figure out - how are you always targeting flat-footed AC? Are you spending a full round action using Dazzling Display to make your target Shaken before firing?
Unless we're dealing with a different crossbow (I know there are a couple floating around), picking up Crossbow Mastery would reduce the reload time to a single move action for both bolts, meaning you could fire once per round rather than once every two rounds.
Ok, so people hate crossbows so much they never even read this archytype. The crossbowman archetype ignores his opponentso dexterity bonus to AC when he fires as a readied action .
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Let's document you in combat, shall we?
Turn 1:
Swift: Enter Kirin Style
Full Round: Dazzling Display (hope they're within 30 feet of you)
Turn 2:
Swift: Identify Target
Standard: Attack Target (to trigger Shatter Defenses)
Move: Reload
Turn 3:
Standard: Deadly Stroke (I don't think this combines with Vital Strike but I may be wrong).
Swift: Trigger bonus damage from Kirin Style
Turn 4+
If Shaken goto Turn 2, else Dazzling Display then goto Turn 2.This is three turns for one trick. That's... terrible. The best you'll get it down to is one attack every two rounds, and that's assuming you managed to hit every enemy with Dazzling Display (or they're otherwise shaken). You can't do it with a readied action, it takes a standard action to ready and the only way you have to get an opponent flat-footed is shatter defenses which requires you to attack them and only lasts until the end of your next turn.
I have dazzle/shatter only as pre-reqs for deadly stroke. I never use them. All I do is load and shoot, and as long as I shoot as a readied action (with the trigger "as soon as any person takes any action whatsoever") the target is denied dexterity bonus, aka flat footed.
The order is more like this:
Turn One
Swift Kirin Style
Fire
Turn two
move action: Reload
move action: Reload
Swift Kirin strike
Turn three
Swift Kirin strike
Fire
Repeat.
Firing twice in three rounds is not bad.
Ok, so people hate crossbows so much they never even read this archytype. The crossbowman archetype ignores his opponentso dexterity bonus to AC when he fires as a readied action .It might just be because it's ridiculously late over here, but there's a problem I can't seem to figure out - how are you always targeting flat-footed AC? Are you spending a full round action using Dazzling Display to make your target Shaken before firing?
Unless we're dealing with a different crossbow (I know there are a couple floating around), picking up Crossbow Mastery would reduce the reload time to a single move action for both bolts, meaning you could fire once per round rather than once every two rounds.
We read it before the Ace Bolt came out and were not impressed.
If the GM is using monsters they use natural armor so that dex thing might not help much. Against full BAB martials it won't help much either.
In addition it does not stack with your other abilities requiring a standard action so ti still does not work.
You can ready the vital strike or the deadly stroke, but not both.
edit: Losing dex is not the same as being flat footed if that is what you were getting at.
edit 2: Not being sarcastic/mean/jerkish. I read my comment again, and I think the tone seems worse than I intended for it to.
Let's document you in combat, shall we?
Turn 1:
Swift: Enter Kirin Style
Full Round: Dazzling Display (hope they're within 30 feet of you)
Turn 2:
Swift: Identify Target
Standard: Attack Target (to trigger Shatter Defenses)
Move: Reload
Turn 3:
Standard: Deadly Stroke (I don't think this combines with Vital Strike but I may be wrong).
Swift: Trigger bonus damage from Kirin Style
Turn 4+
If Shaken goto Turn 2, else Dazzling Display then goto Turn 2.This is three turns for one trick. That's... terrible. The best you'll get it down to is one attack every two rounds, and that's assuming you managed to hit every enemy with Dazzling Display (or they're otherwise shaken). You can't do it with a readied action, it takes a standard action to ready and the only way you have to get an opponent flat-footed is shatter defenses which requires you to attack them and only lasts until the end of your next turn.
I have dazzle/shatter only as pre-reqs for deadly stroke. I never use them. All I do is load and shoot, and as long as I shoot as a readied action (with the trigger "as soon as any person takes any action whatsoever") the target is denied dexterity bonus, aka flat footed.
The order is more like this:
Turn One
Swift Kirin Style
Fire
Turn two
move action: Reload
move action: Reload
Swift Kirin strike
Turn three
Swift Kirin strike
Fire
Repeat.Firing twice in three rounds is not bad.
I dont want to judge the if it works or not. (The readyed action wont fly at most tables and denied dex is not flat fotoet for eksample) but i dont Think 53 times 2 is huge damage at level 12.
I stopped reading after double heavy crossbow on a str 7Why? There is no STR required to use xbows, and xbows don't add STR to damage. What does a xbow fighter need strength for?
He needs it to wear armor that is good enough to make the monsters have a moderate chance at missing him. Even if you go with mithral breastplate you might be carrying too much gear once your other items come into play.
Flat footed is the condition you are in before you roll initiative. One of the aspects of this is you lose your dex bonus to AC, and another is that you can't take AoO's.
Being denied your Dex bonus is not flat-footed.
Deadly Stroke and Vital Strike do not stack.
If they DID stack, the standard multiplier rules would kick in, and your triple damage Vital Strike would effectively become a quadruple damage Vital Strike. You don't get to double a tripling.
And with Str 7, look at your weight limits. A Heavy Crossbow is HEAVY. You won't be wearing any armor or carrying any other gear, and you're going to be slowed carrying just your weapon and ammo.
==+Aelryinth
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I made a similar character a few years back that was Crossbowman 7/Rogue x using vital strike. I think that works much better than the kirin style tricks, as it requires far less setup and far less knowledge skills, which you don't have the skillpoints for as a fighter even with making int a main stat.