Concerned Over Expendables Exploit for EE2 Release

[Mbando]

The current EE2 client (on test server) <there is a serious bug>.

One of our Ozem's Vigil members (Quietus) posted about this in the EE forums on goblinworks out of concern for this being a potentially game-wrecking exploit in the economy. However, a couple of hours later that whole discussion has been erased--almost five pages of posts.

1) I'm worried about this--<potential exploit> Are you going to fix it? If it's left in, I don't feel good about using it, but if we don't and other settlements do, we are at a serious competitive disadvantage.

2) I don't understand why the thread was deleted--aren't we supposed to actively crowd-forge? I'm hoping this was a mistake--I can't begin to see how deleting exploit-feedback from the community helps the game.

Any insight into this, both the exploit and thread-deletion? Thanks.

[FMS Quietus]

Here's the old link of the now deleted posts that was up to page 5.
link

The thread has been cleaned and unlocked for people to post again.
link

Cheatle and Nihimon both posted in that thread expressing concern as well, so I hold them up as witness.

[Nihimon]

It's generally bad form to explain the details of an exploit so that others can reproduce it, but I'm still surprised to see the whole conversation wiped away with nary a word.

[Mbando]

If that was why the discussion was wiped, I apologize. I guess I thought it should be fixed, not tabled.

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

They may not feel they can fix it fast enough. Especially if they feel they need the content to balance removing the start armour from mobs.

[Kyutaru]

If you have concerns about any exploit, they are always supposed to be submitted to the devs directly, not discussed on the open forums.

Heck, I would have deleted your posts just for not following the rules there. You can email stuff like this directly to Goblinworks.

Making a post about them deleting your posts is just rousing up the mob.

[TEO Cheatle]

They specifically said that they were going to fix part of the exploit in the next patch, and watch people to see if it becomes a problem on top of that. Then they deleted the conversation with all our notes so that no one could produce the exploit.

[Mbando]

I just edited my post. Maybe this is common knowledge about bug reporting and I'm just dumb--I would have thought talking about something that isn't live should be talked about openly. It would seem different to me it was on the live servers--then you wouldn't want to say anything.

Anyways, if that thread was deleted on purpose, why not post something simple like "Hey, we want to keep this under wraps while we work on it," then no one would be confused?

[Mbando]

TEO Cheatle wrote:

They specifically said that they were going to fix part of the exploit in the next patch, and watch people to see if it becomes a problem on top of that. Then they deleted the conversation with all our notes so that no one could produce the exploit.

That would make sense. A line like "Don't worry, we ware working on the exploit raised, thread deleted for security reasons" would be a heck of lot less confusing.

[TEO Cheatle]

Personally, I have been a part of a few Alphas/Betas, and generally they delete exploit explanations.

[FMS Quietus]

You have got to be kidding. First this is a discussion about something on the TEST server and not yet live. So I guess the answer is to say nothing. Throw in a report like it's just a minor bug. I mentioned this because I felt this is pretty huge. Second, the exploit is pretty easy to figure out. Third Cheatle brought it up and was my reasoning for following up. Fourth my response didn't give you a step by step instructions. I was explaining to Ryan why the systems you have in place now are insufficient to resolve this concern. You honestly think no one is going to do this? Really? Just wow.

[FMS Quietus]

TEO Cheatle wrote:

Personally, I have been a part of a few Alphas/Betas, and generally they delete exploit explanations.

You explained the exploit first Cheatle in your bullet points in that thread when talking about equipment. Really surprised you're taking this tone with it. You both thought this was a serious issue and now what? Nothing?

[FMS Quietus]

Mbando wrote:

TEO Cheatle wrote:

They specifically said that they were going to fix part of the exploit in the next patch, and watch people to see if it becomes a problem on top of that. Then they deleted the conversation with all our notes so that no one could produce the exploit.

That would make sense. A line like "Don't worry, we ware working on the exploit raised, thread deleted for security reasons" would be a heck of lot less confusing.

They said they were working on the the implement. They said nothing of the expendables. Other than the systems in place will deter abuse. I disagreed.

[Mbando]

If they're going to fix it, no harm no foul. I just think it would be helpful to say something like "Hey we're going to fix the recently reported problem" so that's clear.

[TEO Cheatle]

1) I said they deleted all of our notes.
2) I think this is a problem, I think there was a big problem with BOTH the implements and expendables. They explained they were going to fix part of the problem and monitor to see if people were going to exploit.
3)Some probably will exploit, but delaying husks is the issue here, which is a HUGE feature that could damage the health of the game if it is delayed days/weeks with something that they can fix in the next cycle.

My tone is they know, and there is nothing else I can do about it, and if I go blasting it all over the place and making a big deal about it, it could potentially hurt the game. So, I am content they know there is an issue, and they will monitor it, and fix part of it right away.

[Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co.]

Mbando, I think you've probably guaranteed a bunch of people will try to figure out what the exploit is now.

I had no idea at all about it because I don't go on the GW forums anymore, as most other people do not as well I suspect.

Now I'm curious! I love solving software puzzles involving finding bugs. :D

We know it has something to do with expendables, and the implements...

Hmmm

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

They are going to fix it, but not in the next two days, and the version on the alpha server goes to the live servers in two days, so it will be exploitable. That's likely why they don't want it publicized.

[Guurzak]

unfortunately, the existence of the potential for the exploit under discussion would have been obvious to anyone with a mind to think about such things, so I don't think that suppressing conversation will actually accomplish anything useful- but I could be wrong.

[TEO Cheatle]

Personally, I don't mind talking about, and saying that its a bad exploit, but I don't think they are going to delay anything to fix it this iteration.

[Neadenil Edam]

Yeah discussion of spoilers and exploits is bad kharma.

It is not always easy to remember that though. I got my fingers smacked in the EVE forums for randomly commenting that the Gila drone exploit also worked for Rattlesnake drones in a Dominix (you got a 2000 DPS Dominix) it just never crossed my mind at the time that a lot of people would not have worked that out.

[Shaibes]

By not discussing it openly, you perpetuate the advantage people using the exploit enjoy until the exploit gets fixed. How is that better?

[Neadenil Edam]

Shaibes wrote:

By not discussing it openly, you perpetuate the advantage people using the exploit enjoy until the exploit gets fixed. How is that better?

Because what devs care about is not whether individual players get an unfair advantage, they care about the game viability as a whole.

If its a choice between certain individuals getting rich versus the whole game economy being wrecked for example then the choice is obvious.

[Kyutaru]

Also the Devs can punish specific players abusing an obvious exploit. They can't punish the entire server.

[FMS Quietus]

Neadenil Edam wrote:

Shaibes wrote:

By not discussing it openly, you perpetuate the advantage people using the exploit enjoy until the exploit gets fixed. How is that better?

Because what devs care about is not whether individual players get an unfair advantage, they care about the game viability as a whole.

If its a choice between certain individuals getting rich versus the whole game economy being wrecked for example then the choice is obvious.

You are leaving out the fact that the patch isn't live yet.

I think that's a pretty important fact to remember in this discussion.

[Shaibes]

Neadenil: To which I would argue, with such a limited population, allowing a handful of players to use "one weird trick" to become ultrarich (or ultrapowerful) twenty days into the first month of EE is also a potential game destroyer.

My way, at least we all get to play on a level field while we wait for the comet to squash us.

EDIT: Kyutaru and Quietus, those are both excellent points that I did not consider.

[Neadenil Edam]

There are already quite a few people that got rich with the new player pack exploit.

Even if the cashed up person was a bit of a market wizz, one individual with excess capital is not going to do a lot when you need to walk an hour between major markets. A whole server cashed up is another matter.

I realize some people are ultra-competitive and get upset by perceived "unfair advantages" but it really does not matter if a few individuals get ahead by a cheat/exploit - but it does matter if the whole server does it.

[Schedim]

And I guess the economy allready is skewed due to the starter goblin harvesters being quite rich.
It don't really matters at this point it is EE, we are building the economy for the real game, and stuff like that is going to happen. In the wild-west style economy we have there going to be some rail barons now and then.

[DeciusBrutus]

Shaibes wrote:

By not discussing it openly, you perpetuate the advantage people using the exploit enjoy until the exploit gets fixed. How is that better?

By discussing it openly, the advantage that cheaters get remains. There's no change along that axis.

[Tyncale]

I am surprised that they can't hold off this patch untill they have totally fixed the exploit. Husk-looting a hugely crucial feature? Yes it is, but too soon imo, since so many other, controlling and balancing game-systems are not online yet. I sympathize with Mbando's feelings about this, however I think *any* discussion of an exploit, even about "pre-live" stuff that happens on testforums, is just giving people ideas.

I would expect a dev-team to react vigilantly to any submissions of such a huge exploit though, and proceding with the patch with only a "partly" fixed exploit is not it, in my opinion. A bit disappointed about this.

The exploit seems easily monitorable though, so I would advice any people that bump into it, not to do it.