Howdy.
So the character of one of my players has a Furyborn Elf Bane Falchion +1.
Furyborn says "Each time the wielder damages an opponent with the weapon, its enhancement bonus increases by +1 when making attacks against that opponent (to a maximum total enhancement bonus of +5)."
The magic weapon rules say "A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10."
My question deals with a couple scenarios:
1) When the character attacks a creature of the Humanoid (elf) subtype (so therefore the weapons enhancement bonus is increased by 2), does the weapon enhancement bonus "cap" after only 2 hits? IE, base +1, +2 bane, +2 from two hits from Furyborn? If the bane does not count against that, does the base +1 count against it? Or is the Furyborn "enhancement pool" separate altogether, so that if you hit the elf 5 times with Furyborn, you'd have base +1, bane +2, Furyborn +5 for a +8 equivalent weapon?
2) If the weapon does not cap out, and effectively functions as a +8 weapon in the previous scenario, do Bane and Furyborn count against the +10 maximum mentioned previously?
Thanks for any help!
Furyborn it is absolutely, unbelievably not worth it. Never buy it if you have a choice.
That said:
1) Bane stacks on top of the +5, but the base +1 does not. So, it would cap at +7 after 4 hits.
2) The +10 maximum is for constructing the item. Temporary boosts like Furious, Bane, or Furyborn do not care about the +10 maximum.
1) Bane stacks on top of the +5, but the base +1 does not. So, it would cap at +7 after 4 hits.
Hmm...why would this be?
Because Furyborn stacks "to a maximum total enhancement bonus of +5." Bane, meanwhile, has no such cap.
The exact wording is:
"Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus."
So, Furyborn lets the actual bonus get up to 5, then Bane treats it as two higher.
Ah, I get it now.
Thanks! :)
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So does that FAQ mean that a bane weapon only can be a +9 total? or is the +2 enhancement vs a specific creature type just count as the normal +1 of the bane enhancement?Incorrect.
2) The +10 maximum is for constructing the item. Temporary boosts like Furious, Bane, or Furyborn do not care about the +10 maximum.
My interpretation is that you cannot push the normal what-it-says-on-the-tin +10 limit even with a class ability, but any bonuses that the abilities within that +10 give can push it above that, and that the balance of that is built into the price. In other words, a +5 bane brilliant energy weapon still goes to +7 against its foe because it's not making itself a +12 weapon, it's still a +10 weapon, you're just using the benefits of one of those properties. On the flip side, you could not add flaming to the weapon with your class ability because that actually would make it a "+5 bane brilliant energy flaming" weapon, which is too big. Basically, the key is that the properties of the weapon when sitting on the shelf cannot be above +5/+10, but its /effectiveness/ when those properties are used properly can go wherever it wants.
This does mean that a paladin has little reason to fully max-out a weapon, and an inquisitor definitely wants to ensure they leave a +1 open for their bane ability. This is unfortunate to some extent, but I'm anti-christmas-tree anyway so I'm not going to cry over it.
Incorrect.
2) The +10 maximum is for constructing the item. Temporary boosts like Furious, Bane, or Furyborn do not care about the +10 maximum.
That FAQ is totally unclear as far as me being incorrect is concerned. It says the +10 is a hard cap and can't be affected by class or other unusual abilities. So, yes, you can't take a +10 weapon and have a Paladin or Magus add bonuses to it. But if Bane was part of that +10, it would still add the extra two against specific foes, and if +9 of that +10 were special abilities, Furyborn could still bump the enhancement bonus to +5.
For concrete examples:
A Magus has a +1 Elf-Bane Furyborn Holy Keen Speed Scimitar. That is an effect +10 weapon. That means the Magus in unable to add anything further to it through their Arcane Pool ability.
However, when attacking an Elf, it gives a +3 enhancement bonus to hit and damage. After the first swing, it gives a +4, after the second it gives a +5, etc. all the way until it's giving a +7 enhancement bonus after four hits. This does not make it an effective +16 weapon, it is still a +10 weapon, it just has special abilities that raise the enhancement bonus it provides temporarily.
Here. I'll quote the relevant bit:
For example, a +3 undead-bane longsword is a +4-equivalent weapon, which on its own is not enough to overcome DR/epic. When used against an undead creature, its enhancement bonus increases by an additional +2, making it effectively a +6-equivalent weapon (+3 baseline enhancement bonus, +1-equivalent from bane, +2 conditional enhancement bonus against undead from bane) and therefore able to overcome that undead creature's DR/epic. (Another way of looking at it is when bane is active, you add its conditional +2 enhancement bonus to the weapon's normal +4-equivalent bonus, temporarily giving you a +6-equivalent weapon).
Can you give a source for that quote? Because it's flat out wrong. A +4 Wounding weapon doesn't overcome DR as a +6 weapon, it overcomes DR as a +4 weapon. However, a +4 Keen Elfbane weapon DOES count as a +6 weapon when overcoming DR against elves.
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Hm. Looks like you're correct about the RAW, though I think it's bad form for a rule introduced in the optional mythic ruleset to change the way a non-mythic game is played (by which I mean that nothing outside mythic indicates an eg +4 vorpal bane weapon is illegal or nonfunctional). I will probably ignore that FAQ for my own game.
Didn't notice the link. That is totally absurd and makes DR/Epic ridiculously easy to overcome.
However, it still doesn't stop a +5 Elf-Bane Holy Wounding weapon from providing a +7 to hit and damage vs. elves (or counting as a +12 equivalent weapon).
The +10 being an absolute cap is unrelated to the Bane enchantment (or the Furyborn, Furious, or any other enchantment that works similarly). The +10 cap is for the base weapon, it does not limit that weapon's properties.
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However, it still doesn't stop a +5 Elf-Bane Holy Wounding weapon from providing a +7 to hit and damage vs. elves (or counting as a +12 equivalent weapon).
First FAQ: "The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities."
If +10 is a hard cap you can never have a weapon that temporarily counts as +12.
This is probably not the intended interaction of those two rules since if it was, it should have been clarified in the first FAQ that bane increased the weapon's total bonus equivalent and is, like class abilities and "unusual abilities," subject to the hard cap.
But they do interact in this way.
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You're missing the second FAQ. I understand why it would be nice to pretend it doesn't exist and I will certainly do so at my table, but here it is:
As a baseline, (bane weapons) include the plus-equivalences for its enhancement bonuses and special abilities; when the conditional or variable enhancement bonuses activate, it adds those to its total as well.
For example, a +3 undead-bane longsword is a +4-equivalent weapon, which on its own is not enough to overcome DR/epic. When used against an undead creature, its enhancement bonus increases by an additional +2, making it effectively a +6-equivalent weapon (+3 baseline enhancement bonus, +1-equivalent from bane, +2 conditional enhancement bonus against undead from bane) and therefore able to overcome that undead creature's DR/epic. (Another way of looking at it is when bane is active, you add its conditional +2 enhancement bonus to the weapon's normal +4-equivalent bonus, temporarily giving you a +6-equivalent weapon).
While this statement was made in the context of DR I don't see anything limiting it to that context. For example, it does not read "+6 equivalent weapon for purposes of overcoming DR/epic."
Maybe it should be limited to that context. Maybe it's intended to be. Lord knows Paizo could use more technical writers. But it doesn't currently have anything preventing it from interacting with the +10 hard cap rule.
I would imagine that all of the functions still work, it just can't count as more than a +10 equivalent weapon.
Say you have a bane, brilliant +5 weapon. The total cost is for a +10 weapon. It would be +11 equivalent when all parts are in effect. It is not like the bane function would cease to work upon its designated foes. It just will not count as a +11 weapon for any reason, it can only count as a +10 for bonus equivalents, not for using its normal functions.
"+10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap"
The cap allows the best of both worlds. In many cases, you gain the extra benefits for overcoming DR and stuff like that.
But it clearly can't count as higher than +10 for the mythical interactions.
I do not see anything that says the enchantments don't work, just that the EQUIVALENT can't exceed +10.
Basically, 2+4+5 = +10 (no, not +11, reread above.)
Not, 2+4+5 = Oh, you can't use the 2.
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Wouldn't that same logic allow you to use a class feature to add Vorpal to a +5 Flaming weapon because 5 + 1 + 5 = 10, not 5 + 1 + 5 = you can't use the 5?
Or to cast Greater Magic Weapon to grant a +5 enhancement to a +1 Holy Flaming Burst Speed Weapon because 5 + 2 + 2 + 3 = 10, not you can't use the 5?
If something temporarily contributes to a weapon's enhancement bonus equivalent, it either is prohibited by the +10 hard cap or it is not. The second FAQ states that the Bane quality's increase to enhancement bonus is considered to temporarily contribute to its enhancement bonus equivalent, and it doesn't limit this to DR purposes. Even if that was the intent, it's not stated. I have not seen anything in the rules text indicating Bane, specially, can be +11 equivalent but not count as one for purposes of the +10 cap.
The "best of both options" in the FAQ does unfortunately specifically refer to the question of DR: the two previously stated methods in the FAQ for piercing DR/epic (actual enhancement or bonus equivalent), not best of both options when deciding whether or not Bane increases the effective enhancement bonus for the weapon.
I really don't think that a total +10 weapon that includes Bane is intended to make Bane stop working when Bane is working.
I agree with you. I just don't see what the alternative is aside from "Rule 0 that poop."
No, because the weapon would ACTUALLY be +11, which is not allowed. The FAQ says that there is a hard cap on the EQUIVALENCE of the weapon. But the equivalence is a variable that changes with how the weapon is used.
I believe they are saying that no matter how it is used, it is still EQUIVALENT to +10, and never goes higher. Not that the functions fail to work.
Wouldn't that same logic allow you to use a class feature to add Vorpal to a +5 Flaming weapon because 5 + 1 + 5 = 10, not 5 + 1 + 5 = you can't use the 5?
No, because you never "add Vorpal," you add +X to the weapon and the capability to substitute Vorpal for +5 of that +X.
Since your +5 Flaming Weapon is the equivalent of +6, you can't add +5 to it, so you don't have +5 equivalent to add Vorpal. You can only add +4.
Or to cast Greater Magic Weapon to grant a +5 enhancement to a +1 Holy Flaming Burst Speed Weapon because 5 + 2 + 2 + 3 = 10, not you can't use the 5?
A +1 Holy Flaming Burst Speed Weapon is a +8 equivalent, so you could only add +2 to it via Greater Magic Weapon, making it a +3 Holy Flaming Burst Speed Weapon.
The trick is that Bane is a +1 equivalent ability, even when it makes the weapon count as +2 better. If you have a +5 Keen Holy Frost weapon, you can add Bane to it, and when that Bane triggers, it will be a +7 weapon, and, if it were to matter for some future purpose, it would count as a +12 weapon for overcoming SUPER EPIC DR or whatever. But the weapon's actual bonus is only +10.
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Is it just me or did those two FAQs contradict each other, one clearly said that you can add Bane to a +9 weapon (total enhancements) the other made it sound like Bane doesn't count?
Edit:
After rereading them, the FAQ from the Mythic Adventure source doesn't seem to contradict the original source. So never mind.
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I believe they are saying that no matter how it is used, it is still EQUIVALENT to +10, and never goes higher. Not that the functions fail to work.
So what makes increasing a weapon with a +10 equivalent bonus and a +3 enhancement bonus to +5 with Bane different from increasing that weapon's enhancement bonus with Greater Magic Weapon?
The trick is that Bane is a +1 equivalent ability, even when it makes the weapon count as +2 better. If you have a +5 Keen Holy Frost weapon, you can add Bane to it, and when that Bane triggers, it will be a +7 weapon, and, if it were to matter for some future purpose, it would count as a +12 weapon for overcoming SUPER EPIC DR or whatever. But the weapon's actual bonus is only +10.
I'm not sure why you have concluded that the +2 is only included in the effective bonus for purposes of DR. Could you point out the specific statement within the FAQ that says you only add the conditional +2 for purposes of DR? I do not think the context of the FAQ is sufficient to limit its application. For example, this FAQ is made in the context of applying weapon finesse to combat maneuvers, but also establishes the general rule that disarm, sunder, and trip maneuvers use a weapon and receive weapon bonuses (not just finesse but other effects).
When you add Bane it is only +1 equivalent, but when it activates it is +3 equivalent. You can add Bane to a +5 Keen Holy Frost weapon, but when it activates it attempts to add another +2 to a +10 weapon, which will fail. Perhaps the RAW conclusion is that a +10 equivalent weapon including Bane only gets the benefit of the 2d6 extra damage, not the increased enhancement bonus. This still looks like a bad deal to me, but at least it means you can use a class feature to add Speed or Brilliant Energy to a +5 Bane weapon.
An equivalent bonus is only used to determine what DR it can overcome.
A +1 Bane weapon IS a +3 weapon when attacking the specific creature.
The entire point, IMHO, is to make sure that a weapon cannot count as higher than +10 FOR PURPOSES OF OVERCOMING DR. In other words, it will not become an Epic/Mythic (I do not know the Pathfinder Epic/Mythic rules) weapon.
I do not believe that the FAQ states that the circumstantial effects will not take place.
That is how I read it, anyway.
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The first FAQ uses the phrase "bonus equivalent" in a context clearly applying to something other than DR:
The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.
The bolded portion of course refers to this text from the CRB:
A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10.
So the total of enhancement bonus and special ability bonuses cannot exceed a +10 bonus equivalent.
The mythic rule for DR/Epic (the only kind of DR that cares about your bonus equivalent instead of just your enhancement bonus), and the FAQ clarifying how it interacts with conditional bonuses, refer to this same total (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonuses):
A type of damage reduction, DR/epic can be overcome only by a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +6 or greater. Weapons with special abilities also count as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction if the total bonus value of all of their abilities (including the enhancement bonus) is +6 or greater.
The second way is presented in Mythic Adventures: You can use a weapon that has a total "plus-equivalent" of +6 or higher. For example, a +1 vorpal longsword and a +2 flaming frost shock keen longsword both are +6-equivalent magic weapons.
A weapon with a conditional or variable enhancement bonus, such as bane or furious, gets the best of both options. As a baseline, it include the plus-equivalences for its enhancement bonuses and special abilities; when the conditional or variable enhancement bonuses activate, it adds those to its total as well.