Ready a charge when staggered?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

If I'm staggered, can I ready a (partial) charge?

Likewise (assuming the above answer is yes), if I'm staggered, but I'm only staggered until the end of my turn, can I still ready a (partial) charge?

Silver Crusade

I'll try to answer. I recently investigated this topic, and other people on the forums 'larned' me. Here's my take:

* No one is allowed to Ready an action to Charge, partial or not. This is because Paizo added a high-prerequisite feat Rhino Charge, which allows one to ready a Standard Action charge. I think most GMs would have allowed ANYONE to ready a standard action charge, but ... The presence of a FEAT that does this means that no one lacking the feat can ever do it. So the existence of this feats means "No, you can not ready any sort of charge, ever, unless you have the Rhino Charge feat."

This is sort of like the Strike Back feat, which is the worst feat ever. It's the worst feat ever because it took an action that was already generally permitted (readying an action to e.g. sunder a reach weapon when said weapon was used to strike them) and made it forbidden. No one is ever likely to actually take Strike Back (requirement BaB+11 !!!), because it's a lousy feat with high prerequisites, but it's existence prevents everyone who doesn't have it from doing this perfectly reasonable thing. I think the feat's authors did not think through this unintended consequence.

* The Staggered condition permits either a Move or a Standard Action. If you had the stupid Rhino Charge feat then you could use your staggered standard action to ready a standard action charge. Since you don't have this feat, and probably never will, the answer is a firm NO. Sadly.

If this is for a home game, and not PFS, consider discussing this issue with your GM. Your GM would be entirely reasonable to disintegrate both those awful feats, and rule that both those readied actions are totally legitimate readied actions for anyone. Without a house rule, though, you are SOL.

Grand Lodge

So I can (partial) charge while staggered, but can't ready a (partial) charge?

(also Rhino Charge is an awesome feat, it just has a lot of prereqs)

Silver Crusade

Correct.

Yes, Rhino charge is a fine feat, except to those players who were already readying standard action charges without the feat and had to stop once the feat existed. And yes, it does have a lot of prerequisites.


When you ready an action, you cannot ready a full-round one, such as a charge.

If you have rhino charge, you can ready a charge as Standard action. Aaaand that's all.

The partial charge is an exception to the charge action cost, but you're not allowed to ready charge without the feat.


Partial charges don't actually exist. There's only a single charge action, which can be performed as a standard action in certain circumstances.

It's just that determining whether you can ready it isn't one of those circumstances, unless you have Rhino Charge.


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And that is why I houserule that rhino charge and strike back are free virtual feats.

Grand Lodge

Avoron wrote:

Partial charges don't actually exist. There's only a single charge action, which can be performed as a standard action in certain circumstances.

It's just that determining whether you can ready it isn't one of those circumstances, unless you have Rhino Charge.

That's why I never wrote "partial charge".

Liberty's Edge

Actually, I think that Claude found an interesting loophole.

Part of the Charge action reads:
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

If you are staggered, you are only able to take a standard or move action during your turn. In this case, using a charge would be a Standard action, so by the rules, you CAN use the Ready action to ready a 'partial' charge. However, this would be an obvious exploit, so any GM worth his salt should not allow a player to do so.

Silver Crusade

Claude can charge when staggered, but can't ready an action to charge. That requires the Rhino Charge feat, unless your GM does what both I and Charender do and pretend those feats don't exist (same as providing them as virtual feats).


If you're staggered, your charge is a standard action.
Standard actions can be readied.

As silly as it is, yeah, it works.

The only counter argument I can think of is that charging is always a full round action... but if you're only allowed to take a standard action, you're permitted to take the modified full-round action charge instead of that standard action. Ie, the charge remains a full-round action that you are merely allowed to use despite being, say, staggered, and thus can't be readied. This is really stretching the semantics though. :P

Also, just because a feat comes out to let you do something, doesn't mean it automatically changes existing rules. See Prone Shooter.

As for Strike Back, it lets you hit something outside of your reach which is not something you can normally do with a readied attack.


Magda Luckbender wrote:

I'll try to answer. I recently investigated this topic, and other people on the forums 'larned' me. Here's my take:

* No one is allowed to Ready an action to Charge, partial or not. This is because Paizo added a high-prerequisite feat Rhino Charge, which allows one to ready a Standard Action charge. I think most GMs would have allowed ANYONE to ready a standard action charge, but ... The presence of a FEAT that does this means that no one lacking the feat can ever do it. So the existence of this feats means "No, you can not ready any sort of charge, ever, unless you have the Rhino Charge feat."

This is sort of like the Strike Back feat, which is the worst feat ever. It's the worst feat ever because it took an action that was already generally permitted (readying an action to e.g. sunder a reach weapon when said weapon was used to strike them) and made it forbidden. No one is ever likely to actually take Strike Back (requirement BaB+11 !!!), because it's a lousy feat with high prerequisites, but it's existence prevents everyone who doesn't have it from doing this perfectly reasonable thing. I think the feat's authors did not think through this unintended consequence.

* The Staggered condition permits either a Move or a Standard Action. If you had the stupid Rhino Charge feat then you could use your staggered standard action to ready a standard action charge. Since you don't have this feat, and probably never will, the answer is a firm NO. Sadly.

If this is for a home game, and not PFS, consider discussing this issue with your GM. Your GM would be entirely reasonable to disintegrate both those awful feats, and rule that both those readied actions are totally legitimate readied actions for anyone. Without a house rule, though, you are SOL.

I didn't allow it, and most GM's I know did not allow it either. By the rules you can only attack someone if you can attack the space the creature actually occupies. Those feats did not change the rules. How far a creature with reach can reach was never meant to be considered part of the space it took up. It won't break the game, but the feats at least made the intent clear. It was never the intention of the rules to be able to strike limbs unless it was called out such as with the hydra, and sundering its heads. I know you could do that in 3.5 with them. PF may have changed that.

I did not know that feat(strikeback) had a BAB of +11.<--That is silly. At best it should have a BAB of 1 since it is already requiring a readied action. Now if it could work with an attack of opportunity then it would be more worthwhile.


Using Rhino Charge as a rule affecting characters that do not have Rhino Charge makes no sense. Even more so, Rhino Charge is in a splat book that very few might actually own - so again - should not be used as any sort of a rule source for basic combat actions.

I personally don't feel you should be able to ready a charge - but that is more a 'realism' issue than a rule text issue. A charge is a rather complicated maneuver, and to be able to pull one off as what amounts to an interrupting action (Move AND swing before the other person gets their action off). This is the reason why a charge amounts to a full action.

The issue, as exhibited, is that the Charge Full-Round Action has the note about being restricted in actions (staggered, surprise round, etc) allowing the 'partial' charge. However, it doesn't actually state that the 'partial' charge is a standard action. It is an exception to the restriction, not a change to the action type - therefore, it cannot be 'readied'. All charges are full-round actions - its just that you can still take this full round action when action restricted, if other restrictions are taken (less movement, restricted on weapon draw).

Even Rhino Charge doesn't actually change the Charge's action type - it is a change to the 'Ready an action' rules that allows readying this specific, and modified, charge action.


Allowing readying a charge does have some exploitative potential.
"I charge him."
"You can't. There's a stone column directly between you and him."
"All right. I move thirty feet diagonally, then I ready an action to charge immediately. Then I charge."

Grand Lodge

Matthew Downie wrote:

Allowing readying a charge does have some exploitative potential.

"I charge him."
"You can't. There's a stone column directly between you and him."
"All right. I move thirty feet diagonally, then I ready an action to charge immediately. Then I charge."

Which could only be done with Rhino Charge--not my question about being staggered. For what it's worth, I wouldn't allow readying a charge while staggered, I just wanted to know what other people thought about it.


Can you ready a partial charge+pounce?


Nicos wrote:
Can you ready a partial charge+pounce?

If you had Rhino Charge. I'm fairly certain it was clarified that a partial charge as a standard would still allow for pounce, and the normally granted full attack. Which is part of why pounce is so good. It keeps you full attacking under so many conditions.


Yes, you can ready a charge and pounce (but not a partial charge, because they don't exist). But only with the Rhino Charge feat, because otherwise you cannot ready a charge at all.

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