Alright, so I'm DMing a game of Pathfinder, and one of the players (An Artificer) has a plan to create an airship. This isn't a huge issue in itself; the setting already has mundane airships existing, but I digress:
The method he intends to use is to create/acquire a normal colossal ship, then cast a permanence'd Animate Object on it - using construction points and so on to give it a fly speed.
The intention then is to treat it like a normal airship, though more maneuverable than an 'actual' one, requiring no crew, and being able to simply follow orders.
This doesn't really rustle my jimmies too much, though I'm not sure if there's something I'm not thinking of here.
I do kinda have a problem with another assertion though - that said character would be able to cast invisibility on the airship, as it is a creature, and thus make it and everyone and everything on board invisible. Along with this of course would be the repercussions for casting any number of spells on it, though I haven't really thought on that too much.
So my question is, what do people think of the above? Am I getting concerned over nothing, or is it something that needs looked at again? (Or alternatively is there something I'm not considering)
p.s. I'm pretty sure said player will find this thread - he does a lot more research on PF than I do - so when he does, hi! :D
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Making it invisible wouldn't make everyone else inside invisible. It would make them trying to walk around in it a comedy of errors, though.
I actually think this is a balanced idea, because though it's a free airship, it can be simply dispelled, sending everyone aboard to their deaths (but what sane air-farer doesn't have Feather Fall or Fly?). Also, by that time, PCs can teleport fairly easily, so who's going to object to an awesome airship? It's also easy to remake if someone takes the dispel route.
What kind of ship? All the ones I am seeing (besides the rowboat) seem to be Colossal. You need to have a caster level of 32 to animate a colossal object, as it counts as 32 small objects.
Invisibility works on objects, simply turning its individual parts invisible with multiple castings and rendering the spell permanent (because why not?) is a viable strategery. Then what DominusMegadeus wrote comes up and you laugh at them.
Also, as Saving Cap'n Crunch said, the spell itself can be dispelled, "killing" the airship.
But here is why you the player should not do it that way: animated object airships have crap for stats.
The average colossal animated object has something like 150 HP (going from memory here) and a max airspeed of 40. RAW, the speed boost don't stack and the base flight speed is 30. End of story. You can meddle with both if you want but you'll be leaving the rules behind and getting into uncharted homebrew territory. Such a construct costs 50k gold to craft up with the Craft Construct feat, and sizably less with the unstable Animate Objects spell.
Meanwhile, going from memory again, the airship in Ultimate Combat rolled something like 600 hit points, had a top speed of 60, and ranged attacks. Oh yeah, forgot to mention, animated objects have lousy ranged attacks. The damage and to-hit are passable, but the range increment is 20 feet. Proper siege weapons attached to your airship do not have this difficulty.
Mind you, it makes for a sweet ride, and if it isn't being used in combat you don't have problems with most of those things. Also I'm not familiar with the weather/vehicle rules, but I think the Construct airship has an easier time of pushing through strong headwinds. And you can always just staple on siege weapons which use animated objects to auto-load them if you really want.
Flying castle > Flying ship. Just saying.
Invisibility on the ship is all well and legal. It may or may not help those inside/on deck, personally I'd say that's dependent on angles (PCs are standing on the deck, something above them looks down? Visible. Something underneath them looks up? They see the bottom of the boat, which is invisible. Invisible =/= transparent).
Though as previously noted that'd make walking around a huge pain.
The only other thing to watch out for is how capable of a combatant it is. If lots of your combat is in dungeons and the like this isn't a big deal, but on the open field it is a reasonably tough creature (and one that can be upgraded as they go along).
When I put my similar project together (Operation Helicarrier, which was grounded by GM veto), the major sticking point I thought I might have was when I wanted to arm it independently. The plan (at higher levels, of course) was to steal a battery of artillery, animate that, and put it inside the flying fortress. Independent animation meant that they could fire separately (for ease of play, I planned to run them in groups as batteries rather than individual cannons). I believe the plan called for five total groups, four of 3-4 guns and one of 1-2 guns (the latter was to be Firewyrms, the rest cannons). One group (the Firewyrms) in the bow, capable of being pointed downward for ground-attack, one group on each flank inside the fort, and two groups on the upper deck to be moved where needed. This would be staggeringly expensive and, likely, a massive display of overkill, but the result was a firebase the PCs could call on that could unleash (assuming three-gun groups) 54D6 on a single target relatively easily. With time to prepare and shift all of the guns to be pointed at the same target, that number jumps up to 84D6. All of this while the fortress itself is maneuvering independently and even delivering its own Slam attacks if need be.
I was also going to consult the GM about armoring the fortress with Permanencied Walls of Force. That may be a bit questionable but, well... as you can probably see by the sum total of the plans, I aimed high and figured I'd work down to what the GM would allow (as it turns out, that was zero, but he's not a fan of permanent minionmancy. Understandable).
Also Jeraa: Create Construct bypasses that. There are two ways to create a permanently animated object; Create Construct or Animate Object + Permanency. One is fast, cheap, and has a really high CL requirement. The other is slow and easy.
Boring7 - yeah, its not intended to be a combat ship as it will literally have like 150hp.
Also, regarding its speed, said player was planning on using some construction points on 'faster' (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/animated-obje ct) to increase its speed - is there something that prevents that? It seems to make sense from what I've seen.
Worth noting that if he's doing it with Craft Construct, there are rules for upgrading constructs. While it'll never be a monster, you can bring its hit dice up 50% (thus BAB, saves, etc. as well as HP-- and I want to say more CP too?), bring up ability scores, AC, weapons, etc. A Colossal one can have its hit dice boosted up to 19, which is a pretty solid upgrade. Admittedly that can get expensive. Ability scores, amusingly, are dirt cheap (5,000 per). The Rune-Carved stuff can also be effective; five or so Runes of Shielding is only 6,000 for +4 AC basically as long as you'll need it.
They're better platforms for guns (or catapults, ballista, whatever) than close-in fighters. But depending on the level of the party and resources available, they can fight decently enough.
At least until something points at that Will save. Ouch.
So a related question then, regarding the invisibility - the permanent (enableable/disableable) invis on it would cost 24k - would there be any well defined way to decide how much a modification that basically allows anyone 'inside' it to see the airship would cost?
Goggles of true seeing for anyone on board.
Swift777 wrote: Alright, so I'm DMing a game of Pathfinder, and one of the players (An Artificer) has a plan to create an airship. This isn't a huge issue in itself; the setting already has mundane airships existing, but I digress:
The method he intends to use is to create/acquire a normal colossal ship, then cast a permanence'd Animate Object on it - using construction points and so on to give it a fly speed.
The intention then is to treat it like a normal airship, though more maneuverable than an 'actual' one, requiring no crew, and being able to simply follow orders.
This doesn't really rustle my jimmies too much, though I'm not sure if there's something I'm not thinking of here.
I do kinda have a problem with another assertion though - that said character would be able to cast invisibility on the airship, as it is a creature, and thus make it and everyone and everything on board invisible. Along with this of course would be the repercussions for casting any number of spells on it, though I haven't really thought on that too much.
So my question is, what do people think of the above? Am I getting concerned over nothing, or is it something that needs looked at again? (Or alternatively is there something I'm not considering)
p.s. I'm pretty sure said player will find this thread - he does a lot more research on PF than I do - so when he does, hi! :D
The player can do all the research he wants. If you want to allow him to have a super airship on the cheap, all the power to you. On the other hand, you have the right to rule that this goes beyond the power intended for the methods he intends to use to create his ship. Even if the entire Paizo staff were to post otherwise. It's YOUR campaign, not Paizo's, not mine, nor anyone elese's on this board.
The rules do not address this question directly, so whatever ruling you make is valid. Remember however that each decision you make may have implications down the line, so that is why it is always best to err the conservative side.
He gets a really cool base and can easily terrorize towns on down. The permanency path is very high level and animate object needs caster level or 32 so no big deal by the time he can do it. Crafting construct cost more and takes alot of time but works better in the end. The absolute minimum level for this is 11 and it costs 36 percent of his wealth. It will have big impact at that level but mostly narrative and since teleport it around by then it is not the fast way to travel.
Mathius wrote: The absolute minimum level for this is 11 and it costs 36 percent of his wealth. Dangerous assumption there. Since the full party can use the airship there's no reason why they wouldn't pool their wealth. That either brings down his cost and thus the level he needs to be to make it, brings up capabilities by letting him pour on some upgrades, or just makes it less of an impact on his pocketbook.
Swift777 wrote: Boring7 - yeah, its not intended to be a combat ship as it will literally have like 150hp.
Also, regarding its speed, said player was planning on using some construction points on 'faster' (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/animated-obje ct) to increase its speed - is there something that prevents that? It seems to make sense from what I've seen.
Nothing says the Faster ability stacks or can be taken multiple times. Usually that means it doesn't, though the final call is up to you.
As for invisibility...
RAW doesn't say that you can switch a permanent invisibility spell on and off, on the flip side a ring costs 20k gold and you could just give the boat a figurehead with hands. RAW is shaky on whether turning invisible would turn the people it was carrying invisible, but it's not THAT big a deal if you let it slide.
Cheapest way to still see the invisible boat is to throw on some custom-made goggles that hit someone with see invisibility or find a way to dose them with it (personal range, but at 2nd level it fits in a spell-storing ioun stone) and then make it permanent. This has larger implications since it makes invisibility no longer useful for your NPCs at all. On the other hand if a party has the wealth and means to do so it should, every time.
boring7 wrote:
But here is why you the player should not do it that way: animated object airships have crap for stats.
The average colossal animated object has something like 150 HP (going from memory here) and a max airspeed of 40. RAW, the speed boost don't stack and the base flight speed is 30. End of story. You can meddle with both if you want but you'll be leaving the rules behind and getting into uncharted homebrew territory. Such a construct costs 50k gold to craft up with the Craft Construct feat, and sizably less with the unstable Animate Objects spell.
Meanwhile, going from memory again, the airship in Ultimate Combat rolled something like 600 hit points, had a top speed of 60, and ranged attacks. Oh yeah, forgot to mention, animated objects have lousy ranged attacks. The damage and to-hit are passable, but the range increment is 20 feet. Proper siege weapons attached to your airship do not have this difficulty. Ah, but one big advantage: Animated objects you can buff. Just have the alchemist use an expeditious retreat infusion on it (okay, probably not legit). Or load it up with DR and energy resistances.
So, the concept is that animated object is going to make a ship fly? What mechanism is going to lift it off the ground? The idea is that a flying animated object has wings or something that actually allows it to fly. The 'Additional Movement' build option is an Ex ability - not Su. This 'Ship' would still have to have wings.
Probably better to simply build a mundane airship, held aloft by balloon, for instance - and animate it for single-person piloting.
Or, more simply - instead of bothering with an animated object that's just going to float around most the time - make a mundane airship, and create a wondrous item (The ships helm, for instance) that is able to cast Phantom Driver 5 times/day.
CraziFuzzy wrote: So, the concept is that animated object is going to make a ship fly? What mechanism is going to lift it off the ground? The idea is that a flying animated object has wings or something that actually allows it to fly. The 'Additional Movement' build option is an Ex ability - not Su. This 'Ship' would still have to have wings.
Probably better to simply build a mundane airship, held aloft by balloon, for instance - and animate it for single-person piloting.
Or, more simply - instead of bothering with an animated object that's just going to float around most the time - make a mundane airship, and create a wondrous item (The ships helm, for instance) that is able to cast Phantom Driver 5 times/day.
The Paizo-made examples of flying animated objects do not actually require wings. Even if they did, it doesn't require the wings or propellers or large balloon actually follow the laws of physics.
I like animated objects, they're robots which don't have to look human (golems are dumb). But the versatility of the rules regarding them creates a vagueness involving them. That vagueness must be defined by the GM, which means the outcome varies wildly.
They might split the cost so that it only a small part of each ones wealth but level 11 is hard prereq that spellcraft can not get around. They could hire crafter but that doubles the price.
Mathius wrote: They might split the cost so that it only a small part of each ones wealth but level 11 is hard prereq that spellcraft can not get around. They could hire crafter but that doubles the price. There's no hard pre-req in item crafting, and this is what I'm seeing for Animated Object's item creation rules:
Quote: Animated Object
CL varies (equal to the animated object’s HD); Price varies (cost of object + [(animated object’s HD + CP) × 1,000])
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Construct, Animate Objects, Permanency; Skill optional (determined by object being created; crafting the object reduces its cost); Cost 1/2 price
So it's a DC 28 check assuming access to neither required spell (CL 13 + 5 for base DC 18, +5 for missing Permanency, + 5 for missing Animated Object). Doesn't require level 11 or a crafter. Nooot even close. Easy option, using Spellcraft:
Level 9: Take 10 on it, Int mod of +6, nine ranks, +3 for a class skill, 10+6+9+3=28.
If he invests in the specific crafting skill required, even less. The Artificer gets a +4 to all crafting skills at 6th level. Dial it down to an Int mod of +5 and you get 10+5+6+3+4=28.
If he really wanted, he can use the Artificer's Item Creation class feature to make a separate DC25 Craft check to knock 5 off the item DC, and a DC26 check to knock another 5 off. This makes it doable at level 5, even with the Artificer's Craft bonus only at +2.
DC25 check to emulate Permanency: 10+5+5+3+2=25, follow up with DC23 check to craft a 13 HD Animated Object with one missing pre-req: 10+5+5+3+2=25, more than enough.
So... yeah, DCs aren't a problem. Time and money are the limiting factors.
Each missing requirement increases the Craft DC by 5. Regardless, the creator must meet all item creation feats and minimum caster level requirements.
The second sentence does not appear in other magic creation rules. You can not get around the level requirements for constructs. You can for any other item.
There is no "minimum caster level requirement" to craft an Animated Object though?
An FAQ on the matter:
Quote: Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item.
This clearly states that the CL listed at the beginning of a crafted item (13 for a Colossal Animated Object, 17 for a Pearl-- am I the only one amused by that, incidentally?) is not a minimum caster level requirement.
The only requirements crafting an Animated Object has is the Craft Construct feat (which must be met), Permanency (which does not have to be met, at the cost of a +5), and Animate Objects (which does not have to be met, at the cost of a +5). While it, like all crafted items, has a caster level, that is not the same thing as a minimum caster level requirement.
To contrast, this is the requirements to make a Stone Golem.
Quote:
Stone Golem
CL 14th; Price 105,000 gp
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Construct, antimagic field, geas/quest, limited wish, symbol of stunning, creator must be caster level 14th; Skill Craft (sculpture) or Craft (stonemasonry) DC 19; Cost 55,000 gp
Note the bolded section. That is what your quote is talking about. Even if a 13th level caster can hit a Spellcraft check of 44, he cannot craft the Golem. But Animated Objects have no such requirement; if you can meet the DC and get the funds/time together, you can craft it and level is no issue.
As of Ultimate Magic, the rule is Caster level 11, and a specific price based on size. You can choose to use the old rules, indeed they are listed as "alternate rules", but that is a GM call.
Kestral is correct regarding item creation rules, although to get craft construct you have to get 2 other item creation feats, and I don't know of a class that lets you get them earlier than level 5. With retraining rules you could presumably get it done then though...
Remind the player that if someone or something cast Greater Dispel Magic on it or it ran into an Antimagic Field or a few other situations that since it's not a regular mechanical ship and not manned by a crew that it'll crash.....fast and hard.....with everything in/on it.
boring7 wrote: As of Ultimate Magic, the rule is Caster level 11, and a specific price based on size. You can choose to use the old rules, indeed they are listed as "alternate rules", but that is a GM call.
Kestral is correct regarding item creation rules, although to get craft construct you have to get 2 other item creation feats, and I don't know of a class that lets you get them earlier than level 5. With retraining rules you could presumably get it done then though...
This is the section from Ultimate Magic:
Quote: Animated Object
CL 11th; Price as determined by CR
Construction
Requirements Craft Construct, animate objects, permanency; Skill Spellcraft or appropriate Craft skill; Cost 1/2 price
No caster level requirements on animate objects made with the Craft Construct feat.
The hard level requirement is part of construct casting in general. If yo do it that it can not be dispelled.
To do it the other way you have to cast both animate object and permanency. The CL for animate object is 36 that way.
boring7 wrote: As of Ultimate Magic, the rule is Caster level 11, and a specific price based on size. You can choose to use the old rules, indeed they are listed as "alternate rules", but that is a GM call.
Kestral is correct regarding item creation rules, although to get craft construct you have to get 2 other item creation feats, and I don't know of a class that lets you get them earlier than level 5. With retraining rules you could presumably get it done then though...
Huh, the flat CL is nice.
Level 5 is the earliest you can possibly make the feats work, such that I can figure (before then, the CL5th pre-req gets in the way). That said, for an Artificer it's (theoretically) easy. They get both pre-reqs as bonus feats at levels 4 and 5, so use your level 5 feat slot to take Craft Constructs and you're in business.
The 'theoretically' is because such as I can find an Artificer never actually has a caster level. They have two specific instances of pseudo-CLs (once in relation to their device-thingies, once in relation to item crafting prereqs), but so far as I can see neither one of them explicitly applies to the actual feat pre-req. So, a GM could argue that an Artificer never qualifies for the feat. But given that this GM is cool with the animated ship anyway, I'm assuming he got the feat somehow.
Incidentally, assuming a four-person party at standard WBL for level 5, the entire party has 42,000 to spend between them. The actual animating process takes 30,000+ship price, so theoretically within reach even if not very smart at that point... how much does a ship cost anyway?
Boat prices range from 3k to 50k, depending on sourcebook, which I will get to in a minute. If you have access to Permanency you have access to Fabricate, which can construct a boat with relative ease for negligible cost.
Let's see, if we're being sticklers for boat construction you'd need a source of lumber; any unoccupied forest. You'd need Nails and iron parts; any pile of crap weapons and armor from the last Goblin/Orc village you destroyed. You'd need waterproofing; so find some pine trees and make pine tar or any other brand of seal that can be easily manufactured. And you would need rope; grass rope is easy. It would take several days and most likely some transportation of parts, but that's not that big a deal. All told, raw materials can be scavenged for free, in fact with Blood Money they can be literally conjured up from a tiny bit of strength damage. (I like the spell, but it makes for some weird stuff).
Now: the problem with boat stats is they weren't that well done. This is no slam on the Paizo team, sailing and boats have an INCREDIBLE variety and history and Pathfinder is not, generally speaking, a naval game. They made something simple, then when they had to work on it harder for Skull and Shackles they changed some things up. The Keelboat, for example, is 50' by 20' and is either gargantuan or collosal. It is also listed as "flat-bottomed" despite the fact that the "keel" in keelboat refers to a fin that sticks out the bottom of the boat to keep it from rolling. They could print 10 books on the subject and still not get all the nuances of sailing ships, and you've probably already gotten so bored you aren't reading this.
The keelboat from Skull & Shackles has room for ~120 people and is gargantuan, more than enough for the carrying limit of an 8-legged (oars count as legs...I guess) gargantuan animated object (32k pounds for light load, I think). Takes a level 16 caster to animate, a level 14 caster to make permanent, and drops it's hit points from 600 to ~120 hit points. For stealth purposes you can drop a Ring of Chameleon Power on the figurehead giving giving it the Helicarrier active camouflage effect and rock on. Total price 960 (animate objects) + 15700 (permanency) + 3000 (boat) + 12700 (ring of Chameleon Power) for a total of 32,360 gold.
Permanent invisibility and permanent see invisible on 4 part members would be around 28k gold by itself, so I presume they'd go for the ring. See invisible is nice though, so I could be wrong.
I actually did read all of that. :P
Costs seem to bounce from the 3k Keelboat up to a 25k warship. 10k for a Longboat, which seems to be a rather nice option (though the warship's room for guns makes it very, very appealing). So... in theory, possible at level 5. If the entire party cooperates and spends absolutely nothing until then. Probably not really palatable around 10th unless the ship can be acquired for free though.
Interesting note that I was able to confirm: a Crafted Animated Object can't be Dispelled and laughs at Antimagic Fields. I'd always assumed that was the case but it's nice to know.
kestral287 wrote: Interesting note that I was able to confirm: a Crafted Animated Object can't be Dispelled and laughs at Antimagic Fields. I'd always assumed that was the case but it's nice to know. Absolutely cannot be dispelled. Much disagreement on Disjunction. TECHNICALLY laughs at anti-magic field.
RAW says alternate movement is (Ex), so not magical. But the example flying objects include metal manacles (which don't have wings) and an animated straightjacket (which could theoretically flutter, I guess?) so where flight stops being natural and starts being supernatural is kind of weird.
Personally I recommend the keelboat, aside from being a good reminder that you don't want your construct to be a warship its "class" includes the kind of flat-bottomed boats that can land in an open field and not tip over.
Why would you need to land?
At best, you spend your free time modifying the ship of choice with a loading ramp. At worst, you throw a net over the side and climb down.
My issue with the keelboat is that it's Gargantuan (thus, less HP and worse saves). I know I placed a premium on defenses when I was putting together Operation Helicarrier, and part of that was making sure the floating fortress was really, really big. Still, if defenses aren't a major issue and mobility is the only concern, keelboat is the clear winner.
Be wary your PCs do not attempt to "equip" magic items on the Airship. That could get very broken, very quickly.
From a RAW standpoint, I think your players assumptions about Invisibility are correct -- since the PC's are "carried" they would Invis with the airship - with one small caveat: At 100/lbs per caster level, I'm not sure that would cover a colossal ship, even at level 20!
Since the PC's are "carried" their weight would count against the weight of the airship AND all the carried cargo. If they can muster that kind of spell power in your campaign the airship is the least of your worries.
On the other hand, if they go the route with Animate Object and Permanence, the airship is prone to crash with a simple Dispel Magic, so ... caveat emptor?
Sitting without orders in a high wind might result in some drifting, even if not, it tends to be easier to load and unload heavy things if your ride is at ground level. I'm operating from the assumption that it is a sweet ride and a mobile base rather than a flying weapon of war.
For combat and defenses you are better off just making a regular airship in most cases. Or doing a "Voltron" with a whole lot of airships that all link up. It was actually a big argument I had a while back about a flying city and how it would be better to just stick your city in a demiplane.
After being convinced, I remembered that there is implied precedent for setting some permanent gates in large airships, and having your totally awesome "Magic Vegas" trade city thing be neighbors with mutliple places at once, and fully capable of changing neighbors by pulling up stakes and moving the boat.
Or the castle, if you prefer.
Then the discussion digressed into whether or not it would be valuable to put a wall of force-supported battlestation/research lab over the Pit of Gormuz as a punishment job. Studying the pit and killing any cultists who show up.
edit: Come to think of it, you could always make a regular boat, hit a large "ballast" section in the middle with permanent levitate spell. Once the boat reaches neutral bouyancy have a few linked "lifters" that are part of the ship move the whole thing around. It could even use vehicle rules instead of creature movement rules to go faster.
|
|
