A lot of the time I browse this forum, and I see the number one piece of advice when dealing with Paladin players is "sit down with your player and discuss with him/her what can lead to falling before the game starts.
So, yeah. I've got a player in an upcoming Kingmaker game who's going to be playing a paladin.
Oh, and...
...I wrote a silver dragon NPC in, for funsies, who has been given to said paladin from her order to foster...said order was given the egg a long time ago by that which is mentioned in the spoiler tag. (It's using the awesome Savage Species "Bestiary Levels" conversion floating around in the Conversions forum, so he won't even be a wyrmling until level 7...also he's being designed with a lower point-buy, and other things in mind to keep from overshadowing the PCs.)
So, I'm trying to figure out what a good code for a pally is. Obviously, when you're lawful good, and you've been given the egg of a lawful good dragon to watch over, taking care of that dragon is totally gonna be on the code.
And, considering the last time I tried to run this AP it got derailed hardcore by a player who...
...killed the kobold who surrenders without attacking you outside their lair, in cold blood, after it quite literally begged him to please not hurt him. I bumped the player down from CG to CN for that, he pitched a fit, started trying to throw off the game at all points, even going PVP because he was a sulky whiner who always did that kind of thing when things didn't go his way, to the point where I eventually got tired of dealing with him and left the group
....I figured it would be a good idea to point out to her ahead of time that I believe killing those who surrender who have not actually attacked you, regardless of racial stereotype, is justification for falling.
What else do you think is pretty basic Paladin code stuff?
Not lying, cheating, or using poison are pretty much spelled out for me and don't seem open to interpretation (I will totally be okay with pulling a Carrot Ironfounderson and not actually lying while sending across a message contrary to the obvious in the form of a bluff).
"Helping those in need" and "punishing those who harm or threaten innocents" seems more...open to interpretation.
I don't think she should have to refuse payment for good deeds, but is it wrong to ask for payment even though you're willing to help them even if they can't pay?
The PCs charter states that unrepentant banditry is punishable by the sword or the rope...but what about repentant, or supposedly repentant? Is it okay if she lets them live? I'm guessing yes, as long as they get some kind of punishment. More importantly, is it okay if she doesn't let them live, considering a. they were bandits, b. she's the legal authority in the area according to the charter and c. they're pretty much guilty.
Finally, other stuff you think would help flush out the code (but keep it simple) would be helpful.
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What exactly is the Paladin's order?
Without more information about the order and their specific goals, or at least the character's goals and backstory, it's hard to put together a specific code. You could hash out details about when mercy is expected and what is considered "dishonourable," but without an order that comes down to what you as a GM feel is appropriate.
For example, some Golarion deities with paladins would be completely fine with a paladin executing a repentant bandit (I'm thinking Torag and Ragathiel). Others, like Sarenrae or Shelyn, would be absolutely opposed to killing someone who has a chance for redemption.
Even with an order a lot of it's what you as a GM feel is appropriate.
I don't think she should have to refuse payment for good deeds, but is it wrong to ask for payment even though you're willing to help them even if they can't pay?
The best way to go about that would be something along the lines of "I will of course help you regardless, but if you are able to make a donation to my cause it will assist me in providing aid to others - as the donations of others improve my ability to help you now."
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Yeah - I think the big thing is to figure out where on the spectrum between justice and mercy they are.
To me - a justice based paladin is epitomized by this scene :
*Last bandit, tied hand and foot after attacking paladin & his caravan.*
Paladin : "You have sinned, committing murder, banditry, attempted murder... (goes down the list)... and assault upon a knight of the church. The punishment is death."
Bandit : "Please forgive me my lord!"
Paladin : Of course I forgive you. The punishment is still death."
Bandit : "But I thought you said that you forgave me!!"
Paladin : "I do. The crime of assault upon a knight of the church is hereby stricken. However, I have no authority to forgive you for what was done to others, and I have a duty to justice."
Bandit : "Wait, n..." *The bandit's words are cut off (literally) by the paladin's blade coming down in an arc to decapitate the bandit, cleanly and nearly painlessly.
*Shrug* - whenever I play a pali - that's the sort I play. I currently have a samurai with leanings that way too.
I sent her an email a couple days ago asking what deity she's going to follow, and like a normal person, she's taking time to get back to me. We play every Sunday, so I should be able to at least get from her a general leaning-to by then...probably.
This game doesn't start for a couple months, so she may take her time to decide things; we're finishing up another AP now, but when I'm GM I push everyone to get involved early so they're invested in their characters, and so I can write in some extra background stuff to make the game more interactive, etc.
Zahir, I'm a bit...financially tight...with the holiday season upon us. I'll peruse the PathfinderWiki to see if I can find anything, but if it's not there, or on d20pfsrd, or the like, I probably won't find it.
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Shelyn is here. I think it's the only code online in its full form, but here are some examples of stances on mercy vs justice, from most merciful to most punitive:
Shelyn: I accept surrender if my opponent can be redeemed—and I never assume that they cannot be. All things that live love beauty, and I will show beauty’s answer to them.
Sarenrae: I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword.
Abadar: Bandits are a plague. Under my will they come to justice. If they will not come willingly before the law, where they can protest for justice in the courts, they will come under the power of my sword.
Torag: Against my people's enemies I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except to extract information. I will defeat them, and I will scatter their families.
Deities often have special interests protected in their code, for example Shelyn abhors the destruction of an object of art, Torag forbids sloppy forge-work, and Erastil requires service to the community.
This just in...she will be an aasimar paladin of Erastil. I don't think their code has been written out, has it?
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This just in...she will be an aasimar paladin of Erastil. I don't think their code has been written out, has it?
I don't think so. But then again - I don't think Erastil has all that many paladins. (For one thing - not many palis go archery.) The Pathinder Wiki mentions there being a few halfling paladins of Erastil - but that's the only mention of them that I could find.
I'd guess that a pali of Erastil would be a bit on the justice side of the spectrum - and probably wouldn't bother taking criminals back to courts often whether or not they decided upon mercy. After all - a whole court is just a contrivance of uppity & overcivilized folk.
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Just make sure to end it with...
"The code exists to make me a better person. I'll not ignore its spirit in favor of its literal words. I will not use it as an excuse to to justify disgraceful acts."
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Erastil, with his focus on community, seems a good place to slot in the following code(s):
On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey [Erastil's] Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.
A [Paladin] is:
*Trustworthy
*Loyal
*Helpful
*Friendly
*Courteous
*Kind
*Obedient
*Cheerful
*Thrifty
*Brave
*Clean, and
*Reverent
Don't forget to Be Prepared, and to Do a Good Turn Daily!
It's going to be basically impossible to write a paladin's code without knowing his/her deity.
Bump this thread when you find out?
Give him a free, slotless Phylactery of Faithfulness. Then there's no issue of surprise fallings.
The OP already said that it was Erastil.
Sorry, missed that!
I'd think a paladin of Erastil should endeavor to provide food and provisions for those in need, as he is the god of hunting and farming.
He would work toward simplicity and self-sufficiency. Bureaucracy, technology, and over-specialization of labor should be resisted, as they bring people further away from nature.
He should not wear intricate clothing, eat elaborately-prepared foods (especially if he doesn't know what is in them,) or sleep in soft beds.
He should always pray to thank Erastil before eating.
So a few responses in context of the character being a paladin of erastil.
....I figured it would be a good idea to point out to her ahead of time that I believe killing those who surrender who have not actually attacked you, regardless of racial stereotype, is justification for falling.
Depending on the laws the group eventually sets up, you should be cautious here. A paladin of Erastil would be respectful of both the law and tradition.
Tradition of the River Kingdoms:
"While many inhabitants of the surrounding kingdoms think of the people of the River Kingdoms as back stabbing curs they are wrong as one of the codes of the River Freedoms is that oathbreaker must die (usually in a very painful manner), as a result most people from the River Kingdoms would die before they broke their word but are also very cautious about giving their word in the first place."
The law, it will depend on what is established, but currently banditry carries the death penalty. A legal execution or respect for the traditional code of ethics probably should not be fall worthy for a paladin of erastil.
What else do you think is pretty basic Paladin code stuff?
Not lying, cheating, or using poison are pretty much spelled out for me and don't seem open to interpretation (I will totally be okay with pulling a Carrot Ironfounderson and not actually lying while sending across a message contrary to the obvious in the form of a bluff).
I would be a little cautious here. Does this mean that your paladin is simply not allowed to decieve someone? That could be a major problem in a certain part of the end of book one of Kingmaker no? I think lying for personal gain, is an issue. Decieving someone to achieve a good on the other hand, probably not an issue, particularly when trying to 'go under cover' or something similar. I dont think you should endevor to exclude the player from those types of encounters, which potentially could come several times in kingmaker.
"Helping those in need" and "punishing those who harm or threaten innocents" seems more...open to interpretation.
I think bob's post covers this one rather well.
I don't think she should have to refuse payment for good deeds, but is it wrong to ask for payment even though you're willing to help them even if they can't pay?
Thematically that might be nice, but again remember this is pathfinder, and money is power. I dont think you need to deliberately handicap the player in terms of wealth in order to keep in theme. She might want instead to insist on practical rewards (weapons and other equipment) or to make a point to spend reward money on such things, as a paladin of erastil would 'live simply' so lavish homes and clothing would be out of style, but a very fine bow, armor and other tools would be completely appropriate.
The PCs charter states that unrepentant banditry is punishable by the sword or the rope...but what about repentant, or supposedly repentant? Is it okay if she lets them live? I'm guessing yes, as long as they get some kind of punishment. More importantly, is it okay if she doesn't let them live, considering a. they were bandits, b. she's the legal authority in the area according to the charter and c. they're pretty much guilty.
I think that becomes very tricky until at the least the group has built a jail. What is a suitable lesser punishment? Remember the traditional punishment would certainly be death in the area regardless of punishment, and until a jail is built there is pretty much only execution or let them go free. There arent other choices. Once the kingdom establishes its self encourage them to actually write laws (it makes a huge difference in roleplay interactions like these), but mostly, this should be a character choice, but not one that results in a breach of the code.
Yeah, the misogyny might be an issue...
I mean, first off, Erastil isn't super in love with Pallys, though he seems to begrudgingly admit they're necessary at times, so it's not far fetched to think there's an aasimar pally of Erastil. The problem is, she's a she, and probably playing a she, so yeah, there's that.
After reading through the section on Erastil in book 2 of Kingmaker, it almost seems like his entire opinion on women is "Get in the kitchen, make me some dinner, and raise me some chill'n. Barefoot optional."
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It seems to me that Erastil would be in favor of working off your debt to society in the form of community service. Justice in a method that actually benefits the people, no?
I pretty much told her, based upon what I read so far, that killing guilty surrendering bandits won't make her fall, but neither will giving them another suitable punishment, such as the aforementioned community service. Letting them go free with a simple "go and harm no one else", however, is a no-no.
(Also, I don't know why, but I picture Erastil as what would happen if Hank Hill attained divinity. I am probably going to whisper "that boy ain't right" in my best impression when she detects evil.)
I do want to point out that Jails or Prisons for common criminals was not a medieval thing. Whipping, hands cut off, branding, banishment, work service or large fines were.
Prisons are expensive.
The first time I tried to run Kingmaker (it failed miserably around book 2 or so, due to two of the flakiest players to ever flake...flaking out on us), there was a cleric of CC who made the bandits caught work out their debt in Oleg's place as indentured servants until they had paid off double the amount they stole at the rate of 1sp/day/worker. I thought that was pretty fair play. Then again, CC is chaotic good, and the spirit of what's right is more important to him than eye-for-an-eye.
It seems to me that Erastil would be in favor of working off your debt to society in the form of community service. Justice in a method that actually benefits the people, no?
I pretty much told her, based upon what I read so far, that killing guilty surrendering bandits won't make her fall, but neither will giving them another suitable punishment, such as the aforementioned community service. Letting them go free with a simple "go and harm no one else", however, is a no-no.
(Also, I don't know why, but I picture Erastil as what would happen if Hank Hill attained divinity. I am probably going to whisper "that boy ain't right" in my best impression when she detects evil.)
The problem with community service is how does one enforce that until the group establishes themselves? Otherwise I think erastil would be in favor of that, but again, consider the traditions of the riverlands. They have extremely harsh punishments for oath breakers in this region by tradition and custom. That would factor in for a servant of Erastil.
Okay, so sorry to give preemptive information, but...upon showing her the description of Erastil and his church in page 66 of Rivers Run Red (or rather, copying and pasting a lot of it, but you get the point), she pretty much dumped him.
His misogyny is pretty much way too much for her, and it'd be too hard roleplaying someone who worships a guy she personally would wholeheartedly disagree with (at least on the get-in-the-kitchen-and-make-me-a-sammich-in-between-popping-out-chillun department).
I'll let you know when we get a new choice.
I do want to point out that Jails or Prisons for common criminals was not a medieval thing. Whipping, hands cut off, branding, banishment, work service or large fines were.
Prisons are expensive.
They werent the most common punishment, but they definately existed. Granted being a prisoner generally meant a short life as a slave, gladiator or via starvation, but jails certainly existed. In say roman times usually they were of the 'hard labor' variety as prison camps near mines, or mills or what have you. But that doesnt mean they werent used.
In medival europe they were less frequent but that was because government was less central. Local lords had their own dungeons and their own justice.
While the modern concept of 'rehabilitation' didnt exist, imprisonment as labor, or forced indentured servitude did. And it generally revolved around some location where the prisoners could be securely held when they were not working. Or they were sold as slaves. Either way, you were still conceptually imprisoned.
Any good kingdom in kingmaker is going to likely scoff at such ideas, but then again good kingdoms never existed in the real world, making it hard to judge.
Okay, so sorry to give preemptive information, but...upon showing her the description of Erastil and his church in page 66 of Rivers Run Red (or rather, copying and pasting a lot of it, but you get the point), she pretty much dumped him.
His misogyny is pretty much way too much for her, and it'd be too hard roleplaying someone who worships a guy she personally would wholeheartedly disagree with (at least on the get-in-the-kitchen-and-make-me-a-sammich-in-between-popping-out-chillun department).
I'll let you know when we get a new choice.
Many groups sort of rewrite the whole get in the kitchen part, even paizo seems to want to diminish it. So I would talk to her about changing it, family, hearth, hunting etc is a good kind of deity for kingmaker. Just need to remove the blatant mysogeny. You are after all the DM, you are welcome to just do that.
We actually chatted, and it seems Iomedae is a bit more up her alley. She kind of epitomizes the awesome knight-in-shining armor, and in addition to that, is a female deity, which gives her a little more example to go by.
Furthermore, the fact that she was once a mortal inspired us to come up with a backstory where as an aasimar, her mortal portion is descended from Iomedae herself before attaining divinity, and her immortal portion is from an angel, so she's pretty much literally destined to fight for truth, justice, goodness, etc, from birth.
So, yeah, Iomedae it is.
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Oh man, Iomedae probably has the simplest paladin code of all.
Kill. Evil. ALL of it.
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I have a half-orc alchemist who, and I quote him on this "love{s} to murder evil people".
He's a real riot to play with when I get the chance, think Drax (Dave Bautista's character) from Guardians of the Galaxy.
It'd be fun if I got into a Wrath of the Righteous game with him, because he's very particular. He doesn't want to just kill evil people, it has to be murder, and it also has to be people, a definition that he takes restrictive liberties (oxymoron) with.
Having the chance to have this chaotic neutral murderhobo agree whole-heartedly with the preeminent Lawful Good Paladin Goddess would just be too precious.
Iomedae is pretty much the default for Paladin behavior. Here is the basic Iomedaen Code:
The paladins of Iomedae are just and strong, crusaders who live for the joy of righteous battle. Their mission is to right wrongs and eliminate evil at its root. They serve as examples to others, and their code demands they protect the weak and innocent by eliminating sources of oppression, rather than merely the symptoms. They may back down or withdraw from a fight if they are overmatched, but if their lives will buy time for others to escape, they must give them. Their tenets include the following affirmations.
•I will learn the weight of my sword. Without my heart to guide it, it is worthless—my strength is not in my sword, but in my heart. If I lose my sword, I have lost a tool. If I betray my heart, I have died.
•I will have faith in the Inheritor. I will channel her strength through my body. I will shine in her legion, and I will not tarnish her glory through base actions.
•I am the first into battle, and the last to leave it.
•I will not be taken prisoner by my free will. I will not surrender those under my command.
•I will never abandon a companion, though I will honor sacrifice freely given.
•I will guard the honor of my fellows, both in thought and deed, and I will have faith in them.
•When in doubt, I may force my enemies to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives.
•I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest.
•I will suffer death before dishonor.
•I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior. I will strive to emulate Iomedae’s perfection.
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The paladins of Iomedae are just and strong. Their mission is to right wrongs and eliminate evil at its root. They are crusaders and live for the joy of righteous battle. They serve as examples to others, and their code demands they protect the weak and innocent by eliminating sources of oppression, rather than the symptoms. They may back down or withdraw from a fight if they are overmatched, but if their lives will buy time for others to escape, they must give them. Their tenets include:
• I will learn the weight of my sword. Without my heart to guide it, it is worthless—my strength is not in my sword, but in my heart. If I lose my sword, I have lost a tool. If I betray my heart, I have died.
• I will have faith in the Inheritor. I will channel her strength through my body. I will shine in her legion, and I will not tarnish her glory through base actions.
• I am the first into battle, and the last to leave it.
• I will not be taken prisoner by my free will. I will not surrender those under my command.
• I will never abandon a companion, though I will honor sacrifice freely given.
• I will guard the honor of my fellows, both in thought and deed, and I will have faith in them.
• When in doubt, I may force my enemies to surrender, but I am responsible for their lives.
• I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest.
• I will suffer death before dishonor.
• I will be temperate in my actions and moderate in my behavior. I will strive to emulate Iomedae's perfection.
Anyway - Iomedae paladins are definitely on the justice side of the justice to mercy spectrum.
Edit: Dang ninjas!
Soooooo...something happened...
Basically, long story short, another party member got all up in this girl's kool-aid by copying her and making a lawful good aasimar. She got annoyed (rightfully so IMO), and chucked the basic story as part angel, part descendent of Iomedae right out the window.
So, now, she's a Half-Orc Redeemer archetype Paladin of Sarenrae. Still lawful good, but obviously way more about the good than the law.
The silver dragon NPC she was to foster has been replaced by a black dragon NPC she has raised from an egg, in an effort to steer it from it's natural ways.
So, yeah, much more of a mercy than justice girl, I would say. Is Sarenrae's Pally's code out there?
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Going to try every deity?
The paladins of the Dawnflower are fierce warriors, like their goddess. They provide hope to the weak and support to the righteous. Their tenets include:
• I will protect my allies with my life. They are my light and my strength, as I am their light and their strength. We rise together.
• I will seek out and destroy the spawn of the Rough Beast. If I cannot defeat them, I will give my life trying. If my life would be wasted in the attempt, I will find allies. If any fall because of my inaction, their deaths lie upon my soul, and I will atone for each.
• I am fair to others. I expect nothing for myself but that
which I need to survive.
• The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not.
• I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword.
• I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when words are not enough. I do not flinch from my faith, and do not fear embarrassment. My soul cannot be bought for all the stars in the sky.
• I will show the less fortunate the light of the Dawnflower. I will live my life as her mortal blade, shining with the light of truth.
• Each day is another step toward toward perfection. I will not turn back into the dark.
Note that while rehabilitation for criminals was pretty rare historically, and imprisonment often was just a way to work criminals to death, there's nothing preventing your party from implementing a more modern system in your game - Mark of Justice and Geas/Quest can help at higher levels.
I do want to point out that Jails or Prisons for common criminals was not a medieval thing. Whipping, hands cut off, branding, banishment, work service or large fines were.
Prisons are expensive.
It's a good thing Golarion is an early-Renaissance world, then.
Soooooo...something happened...
Basically, long story short, another party member got all up in this girl's kool-aid by copying her and making a lawful good aasimar. She got annoyed (rightfully so IMO), and chucked the basic story as part angel, part descendent of Iomedae right out the window.
So, now, she's a Half-Orc Redeemer archetype Paladin of Sarenrae. Still lawful good, but obviously way more about the good than the law.
The silver dragon NPC she was to foster has been replaced by a black dragon NPC she has raised from an egg, in an effort to steer it from it's natural ways.
So, yeah, much more of a mercy than justice girl, I would say. Is Sarenrae's Pally's code out there?
I have Inner Sea Gods so I'll just copy it for you:
I will protect my allies with my life. They are my light and my strength, as I am their light and their strength. We rise together.
I will seek out and destroy the spawn of the Rough Beast. If I cannot defeat them, I will give my life trying. If my life would be wasted in the attempt, I will find allies. If any fall because of my inaction, their deaths lie upon my soul, and I will atone for each.
I am fair to others. I expect nothing for myself but that which I need to survive.
The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not.
I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword.
I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when words are not enough. I do not flinch from my faith, and do not fear embarrassment. My soul cannot be bought for all the stars in the sky.
I will show the less fortunate the light of the Dawnflower.
I will live my life as her mortal blade, shining with the
light of truth.Each day is another step toward perfection. I will not
turn back into the dark.
"Don't be a d**k."