Whirlwind attack and movement

[LoneKnave]

There are a number of feats now that let you move while doing attacks (for example, jabbing style/dance). I heard Whirlwind attack was FAQ'd to bar interactions like this, but I can't find the FAQ. Is there one? Wanted to make a build like that that takes advantage of pummeling absolutely everyone around.

[Magda Luckbender]

Whirlwind Attack is a full round action. You may 5' step in the middle, but no other movement is allowed. You are limited to attacking foes you can reach with a single 5' step.

One way to dramatically increase the number of foes you can hit is to increase your reach. For example, if you are affected by both Enlarge Person and Longarm you can attack everyone within 15'. Enlarge person, longarm, and a reach weapon lets you strike everyone within 25'.

[LoneKnave]

I'm pretty sure after checking the Full Round Actions that it means as part of the action, not your entire turn.

Jabbing dancer

In your reading, you can't use this feat during a full attack?

[Gauss]

The FAQ covers Cleave. Basically, it says that you cannot take a 5' step during the cleave attack and re-check who you threaten.

I take this to also apply to other abilities/feats that check at the start of the action (such as Whirlwind attack). Others disagree though.

Basically, my stance is that you can 5'step during a whirlwind attack but that will not allow you to re-check who you are threatening (as per the logic in the cleave FAQ) since Whirlwind attack (like Cleave) also checks who you are threatening at the start of the action.

The opposition stance is that the FAQ only applies to Cleave.

It is up to you and your GM which stance is most appropriate for your table.

[Bob Bob Bob]

So let's quote the particulars, shall we?

Whirlwind Attack wrote:

Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Pummeling Style wrote:

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit. You can only use Pummeling Style with unarmed strikes (see errata at right).

Jabbing Dancer wrote:

Benefit: Each time you hit with an unarmed strike while using Jabbing Style, you can move 5 feet without provoking an attack of opportunity as long as you move to a space adjacent to the opponent you hit with the unarmed strike. If you use this feat, you cannot take a 5-foot step during your next turn.

So Pummeling Style and Whirlwind cannot be used together (Pummeling is a full-round action that is not the full-attack action). In theory Jabbing Dancer could be used with Whirlwind Attack but as Gauss linked, the Cleave FAQ seems to imply that you check the conditions once so Jabbing Style wouldn't allow you any extra attacks. Even if it did, quite frankly, your enemies would all have to be lined up in a row for you to get more attacks out of it. 5 feet of movement and you have to end adjacent to whoever you attack is pretty restrictive.

[LoneKnave]

Eh, you'd triple your attacks (and actually make use of jabbing style's primary function) with greater trip and vicious stomp.

Thanks for the FAQ link Gauss.

[I am Nemesis]

sorry to "raise dead" on this thread.

say you are large with a 10-foot reach and have the following feat chain;

Feats Alertness, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack.

I believe it is implied because you have to have the combat expertise, dodge, mobility, spring attack chain in order to get Whirlwind Attack, that you are allowed to move, attack and move again (with SPRING ATTACK), using WHIRLWIND ATTACK (which is part of a full-attack action, NOT a full-round action) in your Spring Attack.

Correct me if I'm wrong and please explain why. Thanks in advance.
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i can find no FAQ's that contradict my thinking.

[Name Violation]

I am Nemesis wrote:

sorry to "raise dead" on this thread.

say you are large with a 10-foot reach and have the following feat chain;

Feats Alertness, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack.

I believe it is implied because you have to have the combat expertise, dodge, mobility, spring attack chain in order to get Whirlwind Attack, that you are allowed to move, attack and move again (with SPRING ATTACK), using WHIRLWIND ATTACK (which is part of a full-attack action, NOT a full-round action) in your Spring Attack.

Correct me if I'm wrong and please explain why. Thanks in advance.
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i can find no FAQ's that contradict my thinking.

nope. no more than having combat expertise requires you to be using it to spring attack or whirlwind attack. what it takes to get it is irrelevant.

it is its own full attack action. you can not spring attack (a full round action on its own) during a full attack action, or vice versa

[I am Nemesis]

[sigh] this makes me very unhappy. I see the full-round (for Spring Attack) and full attack (Whirlwind Attack).

i get how potent a "pounce whirlwind attack" would be. i would be ecstatic if i could figure a way to make it legally happen in the game.

[SheepishEidolon]

I am Nemesis wrote:

i get how potent a "pounce whirlwind attack" would be. i would be ecstatic if i could figure a way to make it legally happen in the game.

A fighter with mobile fighter archetype can do it - but only at level 20+.

On a more practical note, Outslug Sprint allows you 10-ft steps, friendly casters can teleport / telekinetically throw you towards your next victims, friendly martials can do the same with bull rush / drag / reposition and a Quick Runner's Shirt grants a move action after the whirlwind attack once a day.

[avr]

There's other tricks for movement like the batrachian helm too.

As to a whirlwind attack being especially potent though - only if you can do enough damage to have a chance of incapacitating with a single normal attack on each target, or if you have some effective debuff to apply with that single attack. Otherwise you've thrown yourself into the middle of your enemies and annoyed them. This could hurt.

[I am Nemesis]

i could modify the build and preparation then take dodge, mobility, Flyby Attack (Spring Attack for fliers), then Greater Flyby Attack to make 1 attack against everyone in a straight line up to my full move (60-feet if i use a potion of flying).

I have access to Tome of Horrors IV to get;
Greater Flyby Attack (in HeroLab for me). Yes, 3rd Party.
prerequisites: Dex 13, Fly Speed, Flyby Attack, BAB +8
benefit: When making a flyby attack and flying in a straight line, the creature can make a single attack at its highest attack bonus against each opponent within reach at any point during the move. The creature makes a separate attack roll against each opponent, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity from a targeted opponent.

Now imagine being enlarged and using a reach weapon like a long spear. You'd have a 20-foot reach and be utterly devastating against ground forces, much less other aerial opponents.

[sigh] Having vented my frustration, ;-), are there any other ways to make whirlwind attack more viable other than going Greater Invisible, Spring Attacking one of the group of bad (or good) guys and making your Whirlwind Attacks against your Flat-Footed opponents in the following round?

[Name Violation]

I am Nemesis wrote:

i could modify the build and preparation then take dodge, mobility, Flyby Attack (Spring Attack for fliers),

Flyby attack isn't quite flying spring attack.

It doesn't remove the AoO for movement like Spring attack does.

Now here's the tricky part...

Flyby Attack wrote:

This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.

Prerequisite: Fly speed.

Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.

Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move

Another...

[Java Man]

I believe whirlwind attack is compatible with pounce. So hang out with a beast totem skald.

[Name Violation]

Java Man wrote:

I believe whirlwind attack is compatible with pounce. So hang out with a beast totem skald.

nope.

Charge its own action. Pounce let's you make a full attack, but didn't give you a full attack action.

Look at the faq for pounce and haste

faq wrote:

If a creature with pounce is under a haste effect, and it charges, does it get the extra attack from haste?

Yes. This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn’t specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling implied that pounce did not allow the extra attack from haste because pounce wasn’t giving you the full attack action.

Haste needed a special rule to be allowed to work because it didn't count as a full attack action.

Whirlwind has no such special rule

[Java Man]

Good call.

[SheepishEidolon]

I am Nemesis wrote:

are there any other ways to make whirlwind attack more viable

A few have been mentioned right before your posting.

[Java Man]

For another combo: you've already paid the combat expertise tax, so use improved/greater trip or disarm? Or sunder if you have power attack.

[avr]

SheepishEidolon wrote:

I am Nemesis wrote:

are there any other ways to make whirlwind attack more viable

A few have been mentioned right before your posting.

Mounted skirmisher is another come to think of it.

& in particular, make sure you've got some useful debuff on each attack (possibly tripping as Java Man suggests). If you swift action move into the middle of your enemies, or through them to the side away from your party via greater flyby attack, any serious enemy (not 1-hit mooks) will still be alive and able and willing to hurt you.