Browsing through Masterwork Tools on my phone, I looked at the Arcane Trickster. I stared pretty hard at everything involved with it. I played around with concepts and builds for a few days, not quite getting anything that I wanted from the class. What I wanted was a spellcasting Rogue that was selfish in his casting but was still effective in doing what he does. The base Arcane Trickster doesn't do it for me. I wanted something slightly more.
Also, there are some problems with the Rogue that can't be gotten rid of with spells either. Some things mitigated, yes, but not erased entirely.
Instead of bashing my head against a wall trying to come up with a workable build, I instead came up with a functional class.
I present The Spider (still a work in progress).
Going through the class, I looked at everything I was doing, taking this and that wholesale, then finding a theme and teasing out clarity in concept. For this class, I wanted it to feel rewarding to properly set up a Sneak Attack. Everything else in this class's toolkit is there to support that. The custom spell list I've given the class is used for positioning, misdirection, confusion, and mainly for buffing whatever weak spots the player of the character may consider himself to have.
What I am looking for:
- 1) Rules lawyering. Most of the rules elements are taken from the Rogue and Arcane Trickster classes. A few else are new. I'd like to hear what exploits can be made from these new ones.
- 2) Names. I quite literally spent two hours looking up synonyms to loads of words I thought suited the concept: rogue, trickster, stealthy, sneaky, etc. I looked for something to name this class. One search came up with, of all things, "Spider", and that's what stuck with me. However, the class does not have fluff supporting this, nor do the class mechanics support this name. I'm looking for a suggestion on it.
- 3) Feelings. Yes, this is straight up a better Rogue than the Rogue. That wasn't the intended goal, but so far it is. Other than that, how would you feel about making a character based on this class?
- 4) Improvements to new features. Did you see something that looked a little funky/clunky in the new class features? I'd love to hear your suggestions for it.
- 5) Replacements/Suggestions. So far, Trapfinding and Trap Sense (modified) are in. While the ability to teleport around the map is the main feature of this class, I do wish to avoid it being a one-trick pony. I also want to maintain a Rogue-like feel, but I am not averse to looking at other options. Sneak Attack, however, is non-negotiable. I want the class to be rewarding through proper positioning and setup of Sneak Attacks.
- 6) Spells. Does the custom list look weird? Doesn't support what I've talked about here? Can you recommend a spell or two, or perhaps give a reason why a particular spell shouldn't be on the list at all? So far all spells have been taken from the Sorcerer/Wizard list, but I am not averse to adding others that look like they should get a shot. I'd like to keep the rays/ranged touch spells (weapon-like spells) as they can be used with Sneak Attack, or as stand-alone options. I am okay with dropping the enchantment spells altogether, but I think they add more flavor to non-combat sessions. Spells like Fireball and Burning Hands exist because, while most of the time you want to be precise, there is that 5% of the time when you just need to nuke it. Also, escape and positioning spells are a must, as well as spells that obfuscate the battlefield (Obscuring Mist and the like).
I'll be watching this thread and making changes as time passes. I will try to post a response to most questions or concerns.
Thanks for playing.
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If I want to play a spellcaster rogue, I'd honestly rather play a magus, which has plenty more support for the character concept and is simply more fleshed out in general. In fact, I'd recommend redesigning the class as a magus archetype or using the magus as a template. At the moment, the class feels too weak and has a narrow scope of character concepts it can enable. At the very least, you can afford to give them 6-level spellcasting. Additionally, several of their class features, like impromptu sneak attack, take away the gameplay of using their class features.
While I like the Magus, Spell Combat is not what I'm going for with this class. In fact, I'd like to completely remove spell combat from the realm of possibilities for this class right now.
6th level spells would be also too powerful for the concept. I may be willing to budge on that though, later, but I'm still tied to the idea of up to level 4 spells until given some incentive.
What about the class feels weak in your opinion? Is it that it only has 4th level spells? Not enough spells to wade into combat with? That it is a 3/4 bab d8 light armor class that requires getting into melee (until level 8 at least) to deal its damage?
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I think it needs at least 6 Spell levels if it is to make any sense picking this over the normal Arcane trickster.
I think the teleportation power is to powerfull too early.mi would also remove street smarts. He is getting bonus to hit he can get from spells he is a trickster not a assasin.
And why does orcs have a strong enough tradition with this class to get a special FCB?
I may have more this was first fast look.
They have a 3/4 BAB and only 4-levels of spellcasting. That's weak compared to other similar classes. The standard structure for a gish class is 3/4 BAB and 6-level spellcasting. Even so, those classes have much more class features. Look at the vivisectionist alchemist. They start off with the same skills/BAB, sneak attack, mutagen, and 6-level extracts. And I'd consider the vivisectionist weaker than the base alchemist.
The magus is still a good chassis, even if you want to remove spell combat.
The problem with using the Magus as a chassis is that once you remove Spell Combat, the whole class falls apart. That is that class's gimmick. It's a really good one too, but doesn't support what I'm going for here. I'd like this class's Teleportation ability to be this class's gimmick, with the other class features there to support it.
And when you recommend working off the Magus chassis, why would you also recommend against Street Smarts? The Magus uses spells and his Arcane Pool to enchant his weapon, as well as gaining Arcana that does what Street Smarts does for any attack instead of Sneak Attacks.
Street smarts has no gameplay with it. It's just bonus damage on something the player is trying to do anyway (get sneak attacks). Arcane pool and spells require decision making and resource management. Even the Arcane Accuracy arcana (which doesn't allow the magus to add his Intelligence to damage, by the way) requires spending points. The flavor is also really weak.
You need much more mechanics to have this idea stand as its own class. Designing classes is hard. Really hard. So hard that it baffles me why everyone's first instinct when envisioning a character concept is to build an entire class on it when Pathfinder has many ways to modify existing classes.
I think it needs at least 6 Spell levels if it is to make any sense picking this over the normal Arcane trickster.
I could maybe get behind that. I'll look at it later tonight when I can get to my computer.
I think the teleportation power is to powerfull too early.
I'm thinking of moving the bonus ability from this from 3rd to 6th level. It's supposed to double as a replacement for Evasion/Improved Evasion.
mi would also remove street smarts. He is getting bonus to hit he can get from spells he is a trickster not a assasin.
I had originally spaced it like the Fighter's access to Weapon Focus/Specialization and Greater, where the Greater versions would apply bonuses to all Sneak Attacks (including ranged) at 8th and 12th levels, but it seemed a little awkward.
And why does orcs have a strong enough tradition with this class to get a special FCB?
I wanted to expand the class to other races, which Paizo doesn't seem to have been doing with books after the ARG. Plus, Orcs represent brutality instead of strict finesse. Granting this kind of bonus to a class they could pick even though they get a penalty to its casting stat seemed to appropriately make up for that lack.
I may have more this was first fast look.
Thanks for taking a look.
Street smarts has no gameplay with it. It's just bonus damage on something the player is trying to do anyway (get sneak attacks).
Let me point out Bravery and Weapon Training.
Arcane pool and spells require decision making and resource management. Even the Arcane Accuracy arcana (which doesn't allow the magus to add his Intelligence to damage, by the way) requires spending points.
The Teleportation ability is supposed to be the major resource management with this class.
The flavor is also really weak.
I agree. I'm working on it. The while thing is a work in progress. That's not an excuse, but rather making it known that I am aware of it.
You need much more mechanics to have this idea stand as its own class. Designing classes is hard. Really hard. So hard that it baffles me why everyone's first instinct when envisioning a character concept is to build an entire class on it when Pathfinder has many ways to modify existing classes.
I am reaching out to the community here to have more eyes on this to see what I've missed here. More mechanics is fine, as long as they advance the concept. Before I conclude that the class is "complete", I'd like to be happy with the mechanics. Currently, I'm not. While I agree that some things just don't belong (Surprise Spells for example), I'm at a loss for what to replace certain abilities with, at least all at once.
Again, I didn't use the Magus as the chassis for this as I didn't think Spell Combat or all its supporting abilities lent themselves to the class I'm trying to build, as this isn't supposed to be a combat spellcaster but a melee specialist with a few specialized spells.
Street smarts has no gameplay with it. It's just bonus damage on something the player is trying to do anyway (get sneak attacks).Let me point out Bravery and Weapon Training.
That's a really bad counterexample. Many consider the fighter one of the worst designed classes because they're just a ball of stats and bonus feats. It's why modern martials like the swashbuckler, slayer, and
Again, I didn't use the Magus as the chassis for this as I didn't think Spell Combat or all its supporting abilities lent themselves to the class I'm trying to build, as this isn't supposed to be a combat spellcaster but a melee specialist with a few specialized spells.
If that's the case, then make them a full BAB class that gets spells at 4th level and some kind of teleportation ability at 1st or 2nd level.
Again, I didn't use the Magus as the chassis for this as I didn't think Spell Combat or all its supporting abilities lent themselves to the class I'm trying to build, as this isn't supposed to be a combat spellcaster but a melee specialist with a few specialized spells.If that's the case, then make them a full BAB class that gets spells at 4th level and some kind of teleportation ability at 1st or 2nd level.
I see 3/4 BAB as the "sweet spot" where classes are allowed to gain cool and useful abilities, both in and out of combat and not just a large scaling flat bonus to hit and damage, but where tactics beyond "I full-attack it" come into play.
Maybe Street Smarts does need changing around in that case as it's this weird plain numerical bonus that you don't have to think about, just add to your character sheet.
With Street Smarts, I think the Spider really clearly outclasses the rogue. The rogue is weak though, so I am not sure if that is a problem for you.
Sneak attack magic missiles are 2-dope (lots and lots of automatic damage). I would consider revising the surprise spell class feature.
I also perhaps think that this class lacks an identity. Perhaps your could take out sneak attack and street smarts and put in a mechanic that more elegantly blends this class's spellcasting and martial capabilities? I am not sure if I have any suggestions on that front this second, though.
I run would run with the spider concept, but dump some of your class features. I would incorporate a way to bind or trap opponents, include some way to ascend and descend quickly, and devise a sneak alternate that delivers damage to those without dex bonus and immobilized creatures.
Building on Ciaran's point: perhaps this class could be an expert with poisons or have the ability to create some kind of mystical poison-like substance (so you can actually effect one of the millions of Pathfinder creatures with poison immunity).
I was actually pushing for something like this in the Investigator playtest last year.
Made a few changes to the document. That link is in the OP at the top.
Street Smarts has been retained, but changed to be more active.
Teleportation can now be used a number of times per day equal to your Intelligence modifier +1 for every 3 levels.
The bonus rider to Teleportation has been moved to 6th level under the name "Teleporting Dodge".
To promote Stealth play, a new ability called "Stealthy Relocation" has been created, granting a bonus to Stealth checks after the Teleportation ability has been used.
A new feature named "Teleportation Understanding" has been adding, granting two feats, additional spells, and modifying existing spells.
Spell list has been modified to add racial spells of the appropriate races.
Impromptu Sneak Attack has been removed.
Trap Sense has been removed.
Surprise Spells has been removed.
To do list:
Look at 5th and 6th level spells to determine usefulness to the class. Fireball is about the largest nuke I want for the class.
Renaming the class to something more "teleport" themed.
Consider the ramifications (and potential wording) of adding Sneak Attack damage (as standard HP damage) to rays and ranged touch attack spells that qualify for Sneak Attack, even if they don't normally deal HP damage.
With Street Smarts, I think the Spider really clearly outclasses the rogue. The rogue is weak though, so I am not sure if that is a problem for you.
Street Smarts is something I'm considering adding to the Rogue in my home games. I've also updated it for this since it was just so powerful.
Sneak attack magic missiles are 2-dope (lots and lots of automatic damage). I would consider revising the surprise spell class feature.
Yep. I ditched the Surprise Spells feature. I may have to dig through the spell list and weed out a few spells now because of it.
I also perhaps think that this class lacks an identity. Perhaps your could take out sneak attack and street smarts and put in a mechanic that more elegantly blends this class's spellcasting and martial capabilities? I am not sure if I have any suggestions on that front this second, though.
The Magus exists for that reason. I wanted a sword with a spell casting toolbox, not a caster with a sword.
I run would run with the spider concept, but dump some of your class features. I would incorporate a way to bind or trap opponents, include some way to ascend and descend quickly, and devise a sneak alternate that delivers damage to those without dex bonus and immobilized creatures.
Building on Ciaran's point: perhaps this class could be an expert with poisons or have the ability to create some kind of mystical poison-like substance (so you can actually effect one of the millions of Pathfinder creatures with poison immunity).
I was actually pushing for something like this in the Investigator playtest last year.
This class didn't start out as "The Spider". This class actually started out as "Rogue Arcane Trickster" and became "Spider" when I was desperately trying to find a single word name for the class. It's not meant to have a spider theme. I don't mind the PC picking up Poison Use somewhere else, say a trait or dipping into another class, but so far it doesn't seem like this is exactly the class for it. It might be later, though.
This sounds like it should be an archetype based off of bard instead…
Then switch out things things such as bardic knowledge for things from slayer such as studied target, give ranged Legerdemain at 2nd level and dump trap findingas a static. Switchout spider talents for slayer talents. Bardic performance is dropped for sneak attack.
Maybe give it some more specific talents? Also change the spell list a little. I would get rid of direct damage spells.
How about instead of "Spider" call it a "Dart"?
Kjeldor, I'll give it some thought over the next couple days.
The problem with using the Magus as a chassis is that once you remove Spell Combat, the whole class falls apart...
Oh, I kinda disagree, but then I'm biased...
This class didn't start out as "The Spider". This class actually started out as "Rogue Arcane Trickster" and became "Spider" when I was desperately trying to find a single word name for the class. It's not meant to have a spider theme....
I like the spider theme, but again, biased. :)
Ambrosia Slaad, that is a very interesting link. (Still includes Spell Combat, which hasn't disproved my point.) But I will consider it.
This class didn't start out as "The Spider". This class actually started out as "Rogue Arcane Trickster" and became "Spider" when I was desperately trying to find a single word name for the class. It's not meant to have a spider theme....
how about huckster as a name then.
how about huckster as a name then.
That's more of a shady salesman, your local car salesman or door to door vacuum cleaner rep.
how about huckster as a name then.That's more of a shady salesman, your local car salesman or door to door vacuum cleaner rep.
i got from deadlands rpg, they are the rogue-ish casters from that game. just a thought but what about good old fashioned trickster as a name, its a name synonymous with magicians anyways.
The problem with using the Magus as a chassis is that once you remove Spell Combat, the whole class falls apart...Oh, I kinda disagree, but then I'm biased...
This class didn't start out as "The Spider". This class actually started out as "Rogue Arcane Trickster" and became "Spider" when I was desperately trying to find a single word name for the class. It's not meant to have a spider theme....I like the spider theme, but again, biased. :)
I looked at the archetype again and saw your name credited at the bottom. It's a good archetype. It's not exactly what I've been looking for, but it looks like it works out better than what I've been trying to do. Thanks for the link.
I see 3/4 BAB as the "sweet spot" where classes are allowed to gain cool and useful abilities, both in and out of combat and not just a large scaling flat bonus to hit and damage, but where tactics beyond "I full-attack it" come into play.Again, I didn't use the Magus as the chassis for this as I didn't think Spell Combat or all its supporting abilities lent themselves to the class I'm trying to build, as this isn't supposed to be a combat spellcaster but a melee specialist with a few specialized spells.If that's the case, then make them a full BAB class that gets spells at 4th level and some kind of teleportation ability at 1st or 2nd level.
The problem is that the class doesn't have enough cool abilities to stand as its own class, and you refused to hook what little you have on an existing class. I can play your character concept as another class and do better. If I want a rogueish fighter with spellcasting ability, I can play a magus. If I wanted to be more skill and utility focused, a bard is a better choice. Heck, I played a magus that reserved her spells for utility and crowd control and stealth rather than shocking grasp.
A class can have a full BAB and cool abilities. The paladin, the ranger, the swashbuckler, the bloodrager are all full of cool and fun class features. The brawler doesn't have many largely because of flurry of blows, martial flexibility, and the tons of bonus feats the class receives.
I looked at the archetype again and saw your name credited at the bottom. It's a good archetype. It's not exactly what I've been looking for, but it looks like it works out better than what I've been trying to do. Thanks for the link.The problem with using the Magus as a chassis is that once you remove Spell Combat, the whole class falls apart...Oh, I kinda disagree, but then I'm biased...
This class didn't start out as "The Spider". This class actually started out as "Rogue Arcane Trickster" and became "Spider" when I was desperately trying to find a single word name for the class. It's not meant to have a spider theme....I like the spider theme, but again, biased. :)
Thanks! Yeah, it sounded like you were trying to fill a need/niche similar to what I was, so I pointed you at it. If there was anything on the bones that you liked, go ahead and reuse it/cannibalize it. I just didn't want you to see you reinventing the wheel if the spiderhawk did the job well enough.
Owen Stephens, of Rogue Genius (and now at Paizo too), is working on a Talented Guide for the Magus, which will let you custom-build your own magi. When it comes out, I'm sure it'll have options to swap out Spell Combat for something you'd prefer. I can confirm his other Talented Guides for modular monks, rogues, fighters, have been consistently excellent.
Purple Duck also built the arcane trickster into a non-PrC base class, but I haven't bought it yet. I've also found their products well-designed and balanced.
Not saying you have to use any of these, but no sense making more work for yourself than necessary if one already fills the role to your satisfaction. Tinkering on classes & archetypes can be fun too. :) Good luck!
I already have the Talented Fighter (and More Fighter Talents), and so far that's been pretty awesome.
Just doing a bunch of writing on this has made me realize that classes (or archetypes) can't really be banged out in a day. At least, not by me. But I'll keep at it till I have something good.
But maybe not here.
That Spiderhawk looks better every time I look at it. Makes me jealous.
Maybe one day I'll get up the gumption to post my Yla's Blade PrC, if that concept isn't already taken. (Gestalt Malefactor / Swordsage)
Just doing a bunch of writing on this has made me realize that classes (or archetypes) can't really be banged out in a day. At least, not by me.
I started developing mine months ago and still not ready for the public to see!
Generally this is true. However, I knocked out my Monty Python Lumberjack base class in a few hours. Obviously, I refined it a bunch after that, but I knew exactly what I wanted it to do from the beginning and finding inspiration wasn't an issue. Every one of my original concepts, that another story. They have all undergone significant rewriting. Some never feel finished, some have to be put away for months so you can return more objective.
Come and have a look over at the Multi Class Archetype thread. This is the kind of thing done all the time and is the main focus.
Come and have a look over at the Multi Class Archetype thread. This is the kind of thing done all the time and is the main focus.
I've been following the latest thread since the first post.