Please confirm: Can Investigators be the new "Hulk Smash"?

[Wyrmfoe]

Gang,

Just want to confirm if I'm reading the following correctly...

* At 11st level, Investigators can select the "Eidetic Recollection" talent, which enables them spend one daily use of inspiration to take 20 on a Knowledge skill check, as below:

"Edetic Recollection (Su): An investigator can always choose to take 10 on any of his Knowledge checks, even if he's in immediate danger or distracted. An investigator may expend one use of inspiration to take 20 on a Knowledge skill check even if he's in immediate danger or distracted. An investigator must be at least 11th level to select this talent."

* Another talent available since 3rd level, "Applied Engineering," enables Investigators to spend one daily use of inspiration to take a full-round action to study an object, make a Knowledge (engineering) check, and use the result of that check in place of a Strength check to break the item next round, as below:

"Applied Engineering (Ex): The investigator can leverage his knowledge of engineering to solve tasks that normally require brute strength or keen eyes. He can expend one use of inspiration as a full-round action to study an object or area and attempt a Knowledge (engineering) check. On his next turn, he can use the result of that Knowledge (engineering) check in place of a Strength check to break the object or in place of a Perception check to locate hidden doors or compartments in that area."

* The DCs for breaking objects are listed below:

"Table: DCs to Break or Burst Items

Strength Check to: DC
Break down simple door 13
Break down good door 18
Break down strong door 23
Burst rope bonds 23
Bend iron bars 24
Break down barred door 25
Burst chain bonds 26
Break down iron door 28
Condition DC Adjustment*
Hold portal +5
Arcane lock +10"

All this said, here's what I'd like to confirm...

At the cost of two daily uses of inspiration, am I right that an 11th level Investigator with the above two talents, a likely starting Intelligence of at least 16, and at least one rank in the class skill Knowledge (engineering) AUTOMATICALLY succeeds in breaking down iron doors and all other objects of lesser DC?

Here's the potential math:

+20 via Eidetic Recollection
+3 via Intelligence bonus
+4 via a rank in class skill Knowledge (engineering)
+1 via free use of inspiration with Knowledge skills
=28

Please let me know if it appears I'm reading this correctly. This seems quite powerful, very useful, and wonderfully thematic.

Thank you for your feedback and your time.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, "Eidetic Recollection" is not available until levels in which magic would overshadow such abilities anyway.

[dwayne germaine]

Looks like it works, but I wouldn't say he's "Hulk Smashing" through it, it's more like hes "MacGyver"ing his way through the door

[Secret Wizard]

That's pretty cool but I'm sure Barbs can pull that off easily too with just Strength.

Remember, it says nothing about REDUCING the time needed to take a 20, which takes two minutes for Knowledge checks.

[Wyrmfoe]

First and foremost, thanks for the feedback; please keep the conversation going!

I do agree "MacGyver-ing" is a funnier and more relevant reference.

As for the time delay, being able to destroy almost any mundane object within two minutes seems very useful. Do you agree?

Further, am I correct that simply taking 10 accrues no delay, allowing the Investigator to potentially break through most common, non-reinforced barriers in two rounds (1st: study, 2nd: break)?

Ultimately, with these two talents, is the Investigator potentially a bit more "smash-y" than he/she might initially appear?

[Secret Wizard]

Quote:

As for the time delay, being able to destroy almost any mundane object within two minutes seems very useful. Do you agree?

Oh, yeah, but I mean, a level 11 Martial Artist can ignore the hardness of ANYTHING and a Barb can have massive strength to do the same.

This is really cool because it's more like "press right here and it all comes down", but it's alright.

[Johnico]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Remember, it says nothing about REDUCING the time needed to take a 20, which takes two minutes for Knowledge checks.

Not necessarily. Making a Knowledge is listed as not taking an action, meaning it takes no time. So, wouldn't taking 20 on something that requires no action take no time (since 20 * 0 is still 0)?

[LoneKnave]

Applied engineering i kinda silly because it takes an ability check and turn it into a skill check. A mindchemist with a 3 level dip into investigator (or the other way around, I guess) could break everything without that lvl 11 talent even.

In fact, at lvl 11, just by putting points into that knowledge, you'd already succeed at almost everything just by taking 10.

[Secret Wizard]

Johnico wrote:

Secret Wizard wrote:

Remember, it says nothing about REDUCING the time needed to take a 20, which takes two minutes for Knowledge checks.

Not necessarily. Making a Knowledge is listed as not taking an action, meaning it takes no time. So, wouldn't taking 20 on something that requires no action take no time (since 20 * 0 is still 0)?

Its a function of actions, not time. You don't make more than a single Knowledge check per round, and you need a function of rounds * 20, and a round is supposed to ve 6 seconds, so 2 minutes.

[graystone]

Now it does say "Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform)." but it's debatable that this applies to checks that aren't an action. Add to that the "usually" and it's even more unclear.

PS: you can take as many Knowledge check per round as you wish as they are not an action, at least by RAW. This is a different issue than take 20 though.

[Uwotm8]

The key there is 'or less.' In terms of length of time, nothing is absolutely less than something.

[Imbicatus]

Expect table variation on the time to take 20 for knowledge checks. RAW it should take no time because 20 x 0 is 0.

That said, it may be better to just take 10 on the knowledge check and boost it so 10 is an auto-success. It's relatively easy to get an absurdly high knowledge check, and it will save you a use of inspiration.