Murdock Mudeater
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Just trying to understand, does the PC need to meet these requirements with every additional level, or just to take the first level in this class?
I guess I'm asking if the race is a "foot in the door" sort of thing, or if being a member of the race is inherent to the class/archetype.
For example, any PC with racial archetype/class that get's reincarnated (or whose race changes for other reasons). Likewise, if a PC can wild shape or polymorph into that race, do they qualify.
Obviously, they lose access to any class abilities which depend on racial traits. But how much of a class depends on actually being a member of the listed race? Is the idea that the PC is a member of race, or that the class/archetype is only taught to members of a certain race?
Perfect example, Bonded Witch Archetype for half elves. If she reincarnates, does she lose her archetype, lose her class (like ex paladins and ex clerics), or is she able to retain the levels gained? Likewise, can she progress further in the archetype, given that she was an elf when she was trained to be a bonded witch?
On a side note, humans can take a feat to allow certain race archetypes/classes, despite not being one of those. How is this different from a druid which wildshapes into a member of the race to learn an archetype/class? Likwise, are humans able to retrain this feat at latter levels if they've taken an archetype/class which is dependent on it?
| fretgod99 |
Wild Shaping does not change your type, so that's a no.
As for how Reincarnation works, you do change your type. If you were an Elf before and are a Gnoll now, you are no longer an Elf. I think it's clear you'd keep any levels gained. The question is whether you can continue to progress. If there were any actual abilities predicated upon your being a particular race, you wouldn't still qualify to use those (but I don't think that exists, so far as I am aware).
Expect table variation, to be honest. If it's a home game, talk it over with your GM. I probably wouldn't allow continued progression in a racial archetype that you no longer qualify for (but I'm more likely to be forgiving on that than I am with regard to qualifying for racial-specific feats, etc.).
Murdock Mudeater
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Wild Shaping does not change your type, so that's a no.
The question is more one of does the PC need to be a member of the race, have the subtype, or just look like they are a member of the race. Could a non-dwarf druid infiltrate a Dwarf colony and poise as a dwarf long enough where they could obtain dwarf training in a particular skill/class/archetype?
A reincarnated PC has the subtype, but really isn't a member of the race for any reasons except appearance.
Likewise, a human with the feat to count as a member of a certain race for archetypes and such, still isn't really a member of the race.
And last, if playing a high level game and your PC attains level 20 which changes their race (sorcerer and oracle have several options like this), does this race change alter their archetype/class options for future progression?
| ChrisLKimball |
Racial requirements always seemed to be something more gained from the characters heritage rather then the actual race. One of the reasons that Humans can take a feat that lets them count as having grown up in another culture. I can't imagine playing in a game where A GM wouldn't let you progress because of something like reincarnation, (unless you were trying to game the system somehow). Racial feats on the other hand I can understand as most are based on the physical or magical innate abilities of a race.
Murdock Mudeater
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Racial requirements always seemed to be something more gained from the characters heritage rather then the actual race. One of the reasons that Humans can take a feat that lets them count as having grown up in another culture. I can't imagine playing in a game where A GM wouldn't let you progress because of something like reincarnation, (unless you were trying to game the system somehow). Racial feats on the other hand I can understand as most are based on the physical or magical innate abilities of a race.
Racial Heritage if taken via the human bonus feat, is one of the things lost via Reincarnation...
Murdock Mudeater
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Wild Shaping does not change your type, so that's a no.
As for how Reincarnation works, you do change your type. If you were an Elf before and are a Gnoll now, you are no longer an Elf. I think it's clear you'd keep any levels gained. The question is whether you can continue to progress. If there were any actual abilities predicated upon your being a particular race, you wouldn't still qualify to use those (but I don't think that exists, so far as I am aware).
Another point is that some require race names, not subtypes. For example, the bonded witch is for half elves only. Goblin archetypes are not for other creatures of the goblinoid subtype, and so forth.
Point is that subtype isn't really a requirement for most classes/archetypes, unless the subtype is also the name of the race.
Duergar are dwarf subtype, so they qualify for dwarf feats and dwarf archetypes. Dwarf characters are not Duergar, so don't qualify for Duergar race specfic feats or archetypes.
Can a Dwarf Druid wildshape into a Duergar to attain Duergar Feats/archetypes? They are both Humanoid (Dwarf)...
| blahpers |
kestral287 wrote:There are a select few racial archetypes, like the Kasatha's Ranger one, that are predicated on select racial traits. For them, I would say you can no longer progress. For any others, keep going.There's no real reason that those others couldn't be take by any race, either.
Other than the rules, anyway.
| Claxon |
The rules say you have to have the appropriate racial subtype.
Being polymorphed or disguising yourself and ingratiating yourself in the culture doesn't work.
Racial Heritage does because it adds the subtype.
Now, in the even of a reincarnation I would say that you can continue to progress into the prestiege class unless something about the class depended on you having a specific physical capability lost in the reincarnation. I can't think of any examples where this exist except with the Kastha archetype. However, strictly speaking you lose the subtype when you reincarnate and would lose the ability to even qualify for the class levels you have...how that should be resolved is unclear. Do you have to retrain to the base version of the class? Can you no longer level in the class (and archetype) because you no longer qualify? Reincarnate is always tricky. I think with it you just have to say everything continues to work unless their is some obvious reason it shouldn't like the archetype is all about wielding two longbows with 4 arms and you don't have 4 arms anymore.
| kestral287 |
Fiend Flayer (Magus) is a debatable case of having a physical quality inherent in the archetype; it's implied that there's something special about the Tiefling's blood but never outright stated. 'Course, replacing it is "remove Fiend Flayer abilities, leave everything else totally identical because nothing is removed to add Fiend Flayer in the first place", so there's that.
Elemental Knight (also Magus) requires having the Suli's Elemental Assault ability, and isn't so easy to replace. So others exist, but they're not the norm (no clue why the Elf-only Magus archetype requires elves...).
Murdock Mudeater
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Racial Heritage does because it adds the subtype.
A common misconception.
Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race.
For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both
a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats,
how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Does not change your subtype, you just count as if a member of the chosen humanoid race for things that relate to that race. So, you can pick half-elf for this feat, which is not a racial subtype. Would not make you an elf, just a half elf.
| Claxon |
While it doesn't explicitly state that it changes your subtype, it effectively does. Thing like dwarf bane would harm you if you had racial heritage dwarf. What is the actual difference between having the subtype and what racial heritage causes you to have? Hint: Nothing.
As for half-elf, nothing says that half elf can't be or isn't it's own sub-type. It's just subsumed by subtypes human and elf.
Murdock Mudeater
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While it doesn't explicitly state that it changes your subtype, it effectively does. Thing like dwarf bane would harm you if you had racial heritage dwarf. What is the actual difference between having the subtype and what racial heritage causes you to have? Hint: Nothing.
Huge difference.
The big difference is found for things like gillmen or merfolk, which have the aquatic subtype. Part of the aquatic subtype rules is the inability to breath air and ability to breath underwater. Racial Heritage would allow you to count as merfolk or gillmen without sacrificing your ability to breath air.
Half elves are a race, but not a subtype. Their subtypes are human and elf. Half orcs are another race, but their subtypes are human and orc.
It does matter for archetypes, as there are multiple half orc archetypes, which orcs cannot take because they are not half orcs.
Also, if you chose duergar, dwarf bane would not affect you. This is because racial heritage would make you count as a duergar, not a dwarf. It doesn't matter that Duergar have the dwarf subtype.
Another similar choice would be drow, which are a race with the subtype of elf.
For the purposes of the feat, which is qualifying for feats, spells, and archetypes, not adding a subtype, but actually counting as a member of the race is better.
| Claxon |
I disagree with your interpretations for both dwarf and drow. They would count as the appropriate subtype. We both know that the feat has been hotly debated in past, about how it is actually supposed to work.
In theory, it's supposed to represent that in your bloodline you have a bit of ______ somewhere along the line.
Anywyas, this isn't supposed to be about how racial heritage does or doesn't function. We both agree it allows you to qualify for racially restricted classes.
Per the rules polymorph wont do it, neither does disguising yourself. Hardline RAW would say you can't continue to level in a racially restricted class after you reincarnate into a different race, but honestly I feel like that just doesn't make sense. In fact, most racially restricted archetypes don't really make that much sense.
It would have made more sense to make a regionally or culturally restircted class/archetype but then you would have to add a lot more catgeories of things to Pathfinder and a lot of stuff would become very Golarion specific instead of applicable to general Pathfinder. The developers have tried to make the game setting agnostic for the core line, though splat books are set in Golarion. So the next best thing they could come up with was racial restrictions, I guess.
| Dave Justus |
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Most racial archetypes are that race for flavor reasons. They are cultural and much more connected to an individuals mental processes than anything physical. Since reincarnation doesn't change a persons mental abilities, personality or memory their is no reason they shouldn't retain to abilities and even continue to advance with that archetype.
A few are more connected to physical abilities. Some or all of the archetypes powers might be unavailable to someone who reincarnated. At that point it would make sense to retrain out of the archetype (and perhaps even into another one).
Which is which will be a GM call, but most often it should be pretty clear. Along those lines, I wouldn't, without a compelling story reason, allow a character to who was reincarnated into a new race to take a racial archetype of that race, because they generally wouldn't have the cultural connections to it.