Double Weapon Crossbow (Bladed, etc.)

[Arcanic Drake]

Do double weapon crossbows exist?

I understand that there are bayonets that can be attached to them (that also make them useless at range until removed), but are there crossbows with under-mounted blades that you can hack, slash and possibly stab people and creatures with? I've seen official double weapon firearms, so why not crossbows? I have seen a lot of Paizo Pathfinder art with crossbows such as these, but I haven't been able to find anything official stat-wise about them.

I guess I could home-brew them, but I would rather have the official material if it exists.

On another note, if they don't exist, how do you guys think I should go about creating them? Should I make something similar to the double weapon firearms or are they too powerful (minus the firearm part but keep range).

[Arcanic Drake]

I am also sorry if I put this thread in the wrong place... If I did, can someone point me to the more appropriate designation. Thank you.

[ngc7293]

On page 407 of the Core Rule Book is a Dark Elf with a Hand Crossbow. It has what looks to be a pair of blades on the end; perhaps daggers.
The GM in our Second Darkness campaign ruled that the hand crossbow was in fact special and was a double weapon.

[boring7]

General discussion is fine, though to answer your question; Not generally.

Going from memory, the "battle Bow" (I think that was the name) was a 3.5 crossbow with blades on the end, it took an EWP but did what you wanted. It was in the Arms and Equipment guide.

*looks around*

Ah, it was a "Bladed Crossbow" and was a specific magic item (like the "luckblade") which was a +2 crossbow with a pretty cool look and 1d8 x2 slashing damage as a melee weapon. Took an exotic weapon proficiency, could only be improved with DM permission, was a Heavy not-repeating crossbow, and was incredibly restricted compared to a lot of the crazy stuff they had in that book.

I mean this is the same book that had a weapon enchantment you could stick on a dagger, shove in your backpack, and just get a +2 to your initiative that stacked with nearly anything. All over the map with the power curve, that sourcebook...

The only Pathfinder melee/ranged weapons I know are the gunblades. Thanks to their nature they are hard to reload quickly, expensive to fire (minimum 1 gold per shot), and have a short range increment (max 30 feet). They also have poor rules-support (there are some unclear rules which have never gotten an FAQ and likely never will) so you'll still be working in homebrew territory pretty quickly.

As you mentioned, bayonets in Pathfinder are all Plug Bayonets (I believe that is the official term for "stick it in the firin' hole so you's can't shoot no more but can stab okay" bayonets). There is supposedly one magical one which is a ring bayonet (attaches to the outside of the weapon) and is also a specific-enchantment item which may or may not attach to crossbows like it attaches to guns.

I'd recommend homebrew, steal the design of the Bladed Crossbow, and don't worry too much about it.

[Arcanic Drake]

ngc7293 wrote:

On page 407 of the Core Rule Book is a Dark Elf with a Hand Crossbow. It has what looks to be a pair of blades on the end; perhaps daggers.

The GM in our Second Darkness campaign ruled that the hand crossbow was in fact special and was a double weapon.

Yes, but do they have stats for it? I found many of these things, but no stats....

[Zwordsman]

Nothig official exists no..

but it would be cool to get some "HUnter the Reckoning" video game's melee ranged weapons. Even if the Die was super tiny still be so nice.

[Tryn]

I would simply houserule it:

"You can attach a masterwork blade to a ranged weapon. By this the ranged weapon become an exotic weapon.

hand crossbows and shortbow blades count as daggers
longbow and all other crossbow blades count as short swords

The blade count as seperate weapon and have to get enchanted seperatly"

[Arcanic Drake]

Zwordsman wrote:

Nothig official exists no..

but it would be cool to get some "HUnter the Reckoning" video game's melee ranged weapons. Even if the Die was super tiny still be so nice.

That's an interesting idea.

[Arcanic Drake]

Tryn wrote:

I would simply houserule it:

"You can attach a masterwork blade to a ranged weapon. By this the ranged weapon become an exotic weapon.

hand crossbows and shortbow blades count as daggers
longbow and all other crossbow blades count as short swords

The blade count as seperate weapon and have to get enchanted seperatly"

That sounds reasonable. Thanks.

[Zwordsman]

I never got why the bayonets blocked the weapon...
i mean yeah the original old school muskets in the real world's bayonet made it a spear.. but that was because it was darn near impossible to load well.. so usually fired a shot then stabby fight..

Consideirng it's fully possible to shoot and load a muskett in pathfinder many times in 6 seconds I figure someone would've made a usuablle bayonet..

I mean you still have to enchant it seperately and all.

[boring7]

Zwordsman wrote:

I never got why the bayonets blocked the weapon...

i mean yeah the original old school muskets in the real world's bayonet made it a spear.. but that was because it was darn near impossible to load well.. so usually fired a shot then stabby fight..

Consideirng it's fully possible to shoot and load a muskett in pathfinder many times in 6 seconds I figure someone would've made a usuablle bayonet..

I mean you still have to enchant it seperately and all.

Ring bayonets are hard to make. it needs to be thin enough to attach and not weigh down the weapon or spoil your line of sight. It has to be strong enough to stay attached when you ram it into someone's chainmail-clad belly, and long enough to do real damage. And given the firearms are primitive and the metallurgy is rather limited the only ring bayonets seem to be magic.

But I don't think that is the reason, I think the reason is that the number crunchers are afraid of it. A weapon that is both ranged and melee breaks existing paradigm that has switching from ranged to melee or back take time and effort or involve dropping a weapon to the ground in order to quickdraw the next one. Like the spiked chain, it's "just too good" to even try. The warhammer musket and it's siblings slipped through because at the time someone had the idea that guns were never going to have iterative attacks, and to be fair that is pretty hard. An axe musket can't free-action-reload without a house-ruling and the sword-pistol is both sucky (10' range increment) and hard to do (feat + ammunition + increased misfire chance + double-enchantment).

But that's just my theory, it's a question of intent.

Also, it raises all the questions currently swirling around the axe musket. Do you have to take weapon focus twice? What happens if you use the hinky archery abilities and the fact that you also threaten with the same weapon to bend the rules into a pretzel? Does slashing grace somehow apply to your ranged attack or something? Yeah, you might have answers but other folks might not agree with those answers, which means more confusion, more FAQs, more re-writing and careful selection of language and concerns about breakable mechanics.

Maybe it would all be fine, maybe it would make for a weapon as popular as the spiked chain (there's a reason it was super-nerfed, whether or not I agree with that reason), but I don't think anyone on the design team wants to open that pandora's box when they don't have to.

Then they make a ring bayonet as a rare magic item, because as a rare splatbook magic item it won't show up on random-roll treasure tables and is therefore all the fault of the GM foolish enough to allow it in the game, ha-ha + caveat emptor, sucker.

[Zwordsman]

Isnt an axe musket a double weapon(havne't checked. but I'm sorta assuming so)? so each bit is enhanced and feat required seperately. So slashing grace wouldn't for both..

I think given pathfinder construction stuff they certainly have skills for the ring style bayonett. or even just welding it on to the crossbow.

It's certainly a product of not wanting one weapon for melee and ranged. Can't doubt that one~ I'd just require seperate enchantments like other things i guess.