I have a group fighting a pretty tough fight against a winter wolf. One person found themselves standing at negative hit points with diehard after a surprise round. He now hopes another party member will grab a potion off of him and feed it to him as he stands there and fights the wolf.
His stance is that its a move action for the other guy to grab the potion, and a standard action for the guy to feed it to him, and that he can drink it as a free action while he takes his normal actions.
My stance is that it is a move action for the other guy to grab the potion, and a standard action for the guy to feed it to him, as well as a standard for him to drink the potion because it takes cooperation from both people, which isn't feasible, and is the exact reason people don't do it all the time.
The rules state clearly that it's a standard action to drink a potion. It's not the guy feeding it to him that's drinking the potion, it's him, so I don't know where he believes his footing to be in claiming it should cause it to be a free action for him, but I am posting here so that other people can weigh in on it. I'm sure he'll be commenting here soon.
Im that guy.
You are assuming that there is any action when it comes to drinking it. I'm saying that they are forcing it to be applied to you. Drinking it provokes as they can slap you while you are putting the potion to your mouth most likely Sundering the potion OR you. Much like casting cure spell provokes but having someone else cast it and placing it on you doesnt. it is the same as applying an oil or other magical balm. It doesnt suddenly take ANOTHER standard to help someone apply magic Oil to my Axe.
If I were unconscious, Stunned, Dazed, paralyzed.. Whatever and fed a potion AND it was my turn next, I would have had no downsides whatsoever. Yet somehow being conscious of your effort to help me.. makes it harder.
People dont do it all the time because Potions are inferior to Spells/Magic/SU abilities that can also apply effects.. And because potions are expensive.
It doesn't mechanically take a standard action to pour a potion, it takes a standard action to drink one, which you can pour as part of. This is spelled out clearly in the rules, you added the rest yourself. I was just ruling that if the pourer is not the drinker that it would take an extra action because of the cooperation required. If I pour something, and you drink something, we both spent time doing those things. Me holding it up to your mouth instead of a bucket doesn't magically make it take less time than the sum of those two actions separately. It still takes me the same amount of time to pour, and you the same amount of time to drink.
Activation: Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill. The user merely removes the stopper and swallows the potion or smears on the oil. The following rules govern potion and oil use.
Drinking a potion or using an oil is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion or applying the oil.
I didnt say pour I said drink. The bucket as nothing to do with it. I didnt add anything at all, THAT is how the rules would work because IF you can apply a potion to an UNCONSCIOUS character who cannot take actions... how does he drink the potion? Putting it to your lips and pouring it into your mouth must not take much then if you can do it with mental input from your brain. Otherwise what you describe would be more of a move action than a standard truthfully.. placing something in someones hands or positioning something isnt a standard.
You were the person that originally brought up the argument against drinking a potion being more difficult than being unconscious. Two Standards =/ to a Full round
A character can carefully administer a potion to an unconscious creature as a full-round action, trickling the liquid down the creature's throat. Likewise, it takes a full-round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature.
So it takes a move action to draw the potion/oil, and another full round action to apply it.
Edit: You can start a full round action by using a standard action and complete it with a move action on the next turn.
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Your stance is much more reasonable.. Personally I would not allow it. Just not feasible. Casting spells and using a wand on a pc in melee is the best method.
If you allow either stance, the pc drawing the potion provokes, same pc giving him the potion provokes again, pc drinking the potion provokes. Hopefully only the one wolf and no combat reflexes which it normally does not have.
Pc has staggered condition so 1 move or standard and he loses 1 hp and begins dying again after resolution of standard action. Hopefully the potion heals him enuff to get out of negative hp.
Starting rd 1 now? Can other pcs just attack the wolf instead? Sounds like someone is already adjacent to pc in trouble.
Need more info on situation as I am sure there are better options
Curious-- was the pc attacked by 1 wolf in surprise rd? How many attacks did the wolf make?
I am the tank, the beatstick, Whatever you want to call it.
We are level one.. Magic doesnt exist but Elixirs like potions of cures do. The creature got a real high Stealth, he charged me.. I was hit.. Did 19 points of damage to my 17 HP in one hit albiet with 4 above avg rolls.. I have Diehard. Then init is rolled and I go after the creature regardless. Wands dont to my knowledge exist. At first none of the party had any knowledge to what this was until the GM fixed himself. One person attacked it anyway as the only other melee.. the other two cant really do much right now.
On the provoke rules, I could only see that happening if you were next to the creature.. which.. he isnt. At least not the person applying the potion. What your saying basically amounts to "Well you should just be a caster and have magic *goofy laugh* because its too hard to cooperate and be healed without it " it does say its a full round action though. I could see that fine.. just delay until that person goes since its after the Wolf anyway..
Btw there are only 4 people in this party and the next highest has.. 12 Hp? So avg damage from any of its attack will drop them and any other member.
This is why I don't find it unreasonable.
Okay. First, the only way to apply a potion to another creature requires them to be unconcious, and takes a full round action. I'd also allow it if they were helpless or otherwise not taking any actions.
Second. Do me a favor. Fill a small glass with water. Hand it to a friend. Have him stand 5 feet away from you. Then, take a stick and swing it around as if you're fighting off a wolf or whatever. Now have him feed you the glass of water. Now you should realize how preposterous this all is.
Edit: Also, magic doesn't exist what? Sorry, but you're playing a game that's so far outside the normal pathfinder ruleset we can't help you. And if an average attack from a foe will drop anyone in the party, then your GM's doing something wrong. Much like how he's doing something wrong if there's no magic.
Grabbing the potion is move action, feeding it to another person is full-round action (if that person is unconcious. You may argue that you can cooperate, but you also fighting a wolf. May be considered as Aid Another with rolling touch attack against DC 10 instead of skill check? idk)
Okay. First, the only way to apply a potion to another creature requires them to be unconcious, and takes a full round action. I'd also allow it if they were helpless or otherwise not taking any actions.
Second. Do me a favor. Fill a small glass with water. Hand it to a friend. Have him stand 5 feet away from you. Then, take a stick and swing it around as if you're fighting off a wolf or whatever. Now have him feed you the glass of water. Now you should realize how preposterous this all is.
Edit: Also, magic doesn't exist what? Sorry, but you're playing a game that's so far outside the normal pathfinder ruleset we can't help you. And if an average attack from a foe will drop anyone in the party, then your GM's doing something wrong. Much like how he's doing something wrong if there's no magic.
I am currently Flat Footed.. I can take no actions. What is different from me currently being unconscious is that I am not prone I guess.
Ill also take your challenge there, the opposite would be me standing there as the wolf is biting at my leg because I am in alot of Armor, while it is distracted NOMMING on me my friend tilts my head to the side and gives me a drink. Your suspending belief for actions in combat for Mundanes but not for magic. The same could be said of someone using a cure spell. Since you are moving around dodging and whatnot is it suddenly a case where the caster has to roll a touch attack to heal you with the spell because your moving too much? Another caveat is.. Im not even an adventurer. And a bottle would be closer to a potion than a glass to be fair.
We joined originally with 6 people , 2 dropped, they were ranged, but they dropped a while ago. These potions basically are the only healing but thats not really much a point. The point is nothing stops that person from literally standing still and then ON THEIR TURN moving to defend themselves.... Just like if you were unconscious and woke up.
The actions still provoke. Just a matter if any opp. can do anything about it.
interesting world. No magic. Wonder what classes the other 2 pcs are.
19 dam in 1 hit. Wow. Fighting a winter wolf at lvl 1. You guys are screwed.
this potion deal will be a moot point.
Im an Aegis, pretty beastly tank. The other is a Cryptic. A Soulknife (more of a striker, dex-type) and a Psion.
The potion portion isnt moot. I acknowledge that the surprise round was a good portion of this trouble but the creature is beatable just it was when we had a different set-up. I've already shared my views to the GM on his choice referencing things like.. Wights.. and ghouls.I can actually fight back and fully intend to its just whether I have some healing in between or not. The application will determine if I can change out Armors or just stay Juggernaut.
Right, well, no matter what you say, the rules only support feeding potions to unconcious people, as a full round action. There's no alternative in the rules. If you want to houserule something, talk to your GM, and suspend a hell of a lot of disbelief.
Flatfooted doesn't mean you can't take any actions, anyway. It's not a status effect like unconcious - it's a state that applies against certain effects, generally attacks, that denies you certain things. If there's an invisible foe in the room I'm flatfooted against his attacks, but I can still act.
I'm curious as to how it dealt so much damage in 1 hit. Did it seriously roll a nat 20, confirm, then a 6 and 5 on the damage rolls? That's horrible luck. I'm not going to try telling anyone how they should run things, but after fluke rolls like that, I'd (as a GM) seriously consider bringing in a helpful NPC to save the day. After the party was back to fighting strength, I'd expect the group to have a personal quest to hunt down the wolf later for revenge, or perhaps receive a stern lesson from a local druid or ranger (the helpful NPC?) about living in harmony with nature, etc.
Still, that's all a moot point. The question at hand is whether someone should be able to drink a potion with help from a friend. This actually came up in my Emerald Spire campaign recently, with a player dangerously low due to a spider attack. In our case, the potion was administered immediately after the combat ended, so we avoided the issue of provoking AoO's and action types. If it had to be done in combat for tactical reasons, I would recommend house-ruling a compromise like this: Have a third party member intercede and stand between the injured player and the enemy, thus providing cover for the potion-giving. Have them use the "Fighting Defensively" action if they needed to, but so long as another player stepped in like that, I would allow the potion to be administered with the move and standard on the "healer's" part and a free action on the wounded player's part. I would then change the wounded player's initiative as if they used "Delay" until the very beginning of the next round. I would not allow them to take their move and standard in the same round that they received the potion. Imagining the situation in my head, I would think they'd have to momentarily collect themselves while the potion did its work.
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Actually thats not true, Flat Footed and denied dex are not the same while one tends to include the other. While flat footed unless you have something special that allows you to act you cannot take any actions until your turn comes up which includes immediate actions. Same as the surprise round Baring something like..Combat reflexes or the Sohei monk Class ability.
An invisible person can still be reacted to and attacked.. when you are flat footed however, you cannot act until your turn comes up. Which is why things like.. uncanny dodge are good.
The guy who posted this thread IS the GM.
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Is this Winter Wolf a standard creature out of the Bestiary? Your 1st level with no magical healing class? This encounter is a bit over the top for 6 1st level characters let alone 4.
The standard Winter Wolf is a CR 5 creature and 4 1st lvl characters dont add up to one CR 5 creature.
I'd say just let him do the potion thing otherwise theres a very good chance for a TPK here.
I'm curious as to how it dealt so much damage in 1 hit. Did it seriously roll a nat 20, confirm, then a 6 and 5 on the damage rolls? That's horrible luck. I'm not going to try telling anyone how they should run things, but after fluke rolls like that, I'd (as a GM) seriously consider bringing in a helpful NPC to save the day. After the party was back to fighting strength, I'd expect the group to have a personal quest to hunt down the wolf later for revenge, or perhaps receive a stern lesson from a local druid or ranger (the helpful NPC?) about living in harmony with nature, etc.
Pretty standard for it's type.
Just rolled 4 above avg.
My turn is AFTER the wolf anyway so it doesnt change when this will go off as it will be before the wolf goes a third time.
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Who all will be around after the wolf goes a 3rd time?
+ 10 to hit avg dam 15pts and possible trip (more likely with a +12 CMB) AND 57 HP.
On its next turn it just breathes a 6d6 15 ft cone.
And there is all this debate on getting you d8 plus 1 hp back (currently at - 2).
I would say at least 1 more person will be dropping from this train wreck game.
WolfPretty standard for it's type.
Just rolled 4 above avg.My turn is AFTER the wolf anyway so it doesnt change when this will go off as it will be before the wolf goes a third time.
Ah, I was looking at the wrong statblock on accident. If you were facing the one you just linked, then that's even crazier. No way would I sic that on a level 1 party unless I wanted to introduce the heroic NPC to save the day.
Who all will be around after the wolf goes a 3rd time?
+ 10 to hit avg dam 15pts and possible trip (more likely with a +12 CMB) AND 57 HP.
On its next turn it just breathes a 6d6 15 ft cone.
And there is all this debate on getting you d8 plus 1 hp back (currently at - 2).I would say at least 1 more person will be dropping from this train wreck game.
IF I get healed just above negative I can start pounding away better and on avg if it focuses on me with the cone OR the Bite I will live. I just need the action. It STILL has a chance to fail to hit some of us but the damage is pretty high If I dont hit it at least once.
I'm more worried about the fact if I DONT fight it the creature will cone the rest and drop them.
Is psionics THAT op? I steered away from them in my games, and i think i just got another reason to do so.
I mean it have 57hp... you need 2 barbarians to roll nat 20 with greataxes and be lucky on damage to kill it at level 1.
The point is nothing stops that person from literally standing still and then ON THEIR TURN moving to defend themselves.... Just like if you were unconscious and woke up.
Eloquently stated, Jin. You would have to be "literally standing still" for someone to administer a potion to you. Which you are not, since you are in combat.
You can't think of a combat round as a unit of time divided into 20 or 30 segments where you spend a while standing around, then suddenly your initiative comes up, you attack, then you stand around for a while until the end of the round. It doesn't work like that. Initiative is an abstract system for adjudicating which action out of a whole bunch of simultaneous actions is resolved first.
In order for your character to be fed a potion, he has to be "literally standing still" for an amount of time equal to... one standard action.
And you'd still be better off drinking that potion yourself, since your friend would have to actually enter your square to administer it, and you'd both provoke AoOs.
Or... you can take a 5 foot step back, and drink your potion without provoking, and without twisting the rules in ways that just don't work.
Psionics is not OP at all.. As a matter of fact as you should know psionics is more balanced than regular game mechanics BECAUSE nothing is free, every spell every ability pretty much costs points or actions to be a full power.. where most casters and the lot just auto get them at their highest (Or higher) Caster level.
I have not acted in the initiative.. I am Flat Footed I literally haven't moved.. I just got hit by a Wolf. There is no twisting of words on my side, if anything there is twisting to make Unconscious some sort of Unachievable state that is harder to achieve than a caster.. who can somehow cast beneficial spells to up to 6 people in.. one round. I am not saying during regular initiative I am standing still but at this point I havent done much as of yet.
Also why would then need to go into my square.. they have 5ft reach? You can do it from any square adjacent to my own. And considering I am Staggered your way doesnt work either. I don't need to twist the rules here.
if anything there is twisting to make Unconscious some sort of Unachievable state that is harder to achieve than a caster.. who can somehow cast beneficial spells to up to 6 people in.. one round. I am not saying during regular initiative I am standing still but at this point I havent done much as of yet.
Also why would then need to go into my square.. they have 5ft reach? You can do it from any square adjacent to my own. And considering I am Staggered your way doesnt work either. I don't need to twist the rules here.
A caster has to touch you or your gear to give you a healing spell. A potion has to be poured down your throat.
Flatfooted means you're still trying to figure out what's going on. Why is a wolf attacking you? Where is everyone at? Where's my sword? Are there more wolves? It's not standing there like a total doofus, staring off into space and begging for a potion to be poured down your throat.
They'd need to go into your square because while I can reach out across 5 feet pretty easy, I can't pour a potion down someone's throat 5 feet away.
The rules do not allow you to pour a potion down someone elses throat unless they're unconcious.
The rules do not allow you to pour a potion down someone elses throat unless they're unconcious.
The rules do not allow you to pour a potion down someone elses throat unless they're unconcious.
The only way around that is to talk to your GM and make a house rule. The only way you seem to be willing for this to go is in your favor, and makes no sense, and would be disallowed by pretty much everyone in this thread.
If you won't accept that, then have fun. Until you present something more than "Well I should be able to" I'm done here.
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I want to throw I'm that I had an NPC sunder the potion while someone had begun to deliver it to an unconscious PC useing the move action to get out and standard action to begin the full rou.d action required to deliver it to another person.
I felt sorry for explaining the rules about starting one round and finishing the other. I did not tell them just to try to screw them over and sunder it inbetween rounds. The option just came to me as an option when theinsters turn came up. I was nice enough to say a drop fell on the knocked.out person's lip and stabalize him but the extra actions required to finally really heal him ment another knocked out person bleed out. I felt sorry because it eS a first PFS game for the guy who bleed out to death. I hope it was not the determining reason I have not seen him around any mire PFS games.
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Good point about the drop. Actually drinking a potion isn't just a quick swig. It's more like: "glug... glug... glug... glug!" I mean, look at the weight of a standard potion. Even allowing for the weight of the container, how much liquid volume do you figure we're talking about?
Aside from the fact that nothing in the rules actually allows you to administer a potion to another character who isn't prone and immobile.
I have not acted in the initiative.. I am Flat Footed I literally haven't moved.. I just got hit by a Wolf.
Yes, maybe you haven't moved until the wolf hit you. Immediately after getting hit, though, you are moving, trying to get away, avoid being bitten again, readying your sword and getting in position to land a blow. I mean, say the wolf's initiative was 19 and yours was 11. That doesn't mean that you spent an additional ten initiative points not moving (during which window I presume you want your pal to pour that potion down your throat). Ten initiative points are not a measure of time. It just means the wolf got to hit you while you were still flat-footed, and then you got to hit back.
Even if the rules allowed your friend to pour that potion down your throat, he'd have to move into your space, yell "Hold still, Jinbo!" and probaly grab hold of your hair, helmet or shoulder to steady his aim and pour: glug... glug... glug... glug.
Any reasonable DM would allow this action, even though the rules don't specifically call it out. BUT he would also
- rule it cost you your standard action, as well as your pal's standard (or more likely full) action, and
- rule that both you and your friend were vulnerable to AoOs (that wolf probably only has one, but at least he'd have more selections on the menu).
Now that it comes to it, it'd probably take you a full-round action too, meaning the wolf could hit again before you even finish downing the potion.
The only sane reaction to this situation is either 5-foot step back and drink or withdraw action and run away and drink on your way back to town to make your friends' funeral arrangements.
A caster has to touch you or your gear to give you a healing spell. A potion has to be poured down your throat.
Flatfooted means you're still trying to figure out what's going on. Why is a wolf attacking you? Where is everyone at? Where's my sword? Are there more wolves? It's not standing there like a total doofus, staring off into space and begging for a potion to be poured down your throat.
They'd need to go into your square because while I can reach out across 5 feet pretty easy, I can't pour a potion down someone's throat 5 feet away.
The rules do not allow you to pour a potion down someone elses throat unless they're unconcious.
The rules do not allow you to pour a potion down someone elses throat unless they're unconcious.
The rules do not allow you to pour a potion down someone elses throat unless they're unconcious.
The only way around that is to talk to your GM and make a house rule. The only way you seem to be willing for this to go is in your favor, and makes no sense, and would be disallowed by pretty much everyone in this thread.
If you won't accept that, then have fun. Until you present something more than "Well I should be able to" I'm done here.
One, you can act overly antagonistic if you want, but saying that the rules only mention that particular case and then adding things like "You must be in their square" is different. I don't particularly care all that much if I get healed or not because it simply saved me a little damage and an action.
The rules sate a situation where it is defined when you can apply the potion and no others, that's fine. Sometimes the rules are one-sided on this such as this where casting is just so much better. Or certain actions take less time or more time.
You also assumed it was only to benefit me when in reality I am the LEAST effected considering I can actually survive getting hit, If Anyone else were knocked unconscious? Well I guess I'll just leave them to die.. much easier that way, completely in the rules.
It is BY RAW impossible to assume anything near unconscious without being knocked out, Sleeping or Bleeding out. That is what we found out.
Now I see alot of people bringing up provoking and the action it takes to do so.. But I will say this.. Grappling.. takes most of the time.. a Standard.. When you grapple someone.. they arent suddenly unable to defend themselves, they take a penalty yes, but its the same action as swinging a sword.. but you are actively pulling them to you and next to your square. Along with that you can also pin them and even tie them up or force them to do something.. with a standard action. Ofcourse if you spec for it you can grapple and pin someone in one round possibly stunning them as well if you are a monk.
While doing all of this.. not one time is the creature your actively trying to suppress.. provoking nor the person doing so.. except to the creature they are grappling (If they do not have the feat)
Just a note.. this person.. while grappled can still somehow defend themselves from others while actively fighting you.
*shrug* Its not in the rules so it cant be done I suppose. Yes, Chiroguen Alchemists did get screwed I see.
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Pathfinder, like other rpg systems streamline the rules for combat, etc... without the game having 50 core rulebooks to go through trying to make it so realistic. The whole grappling thing is definetely something that to me is out of hand.
Its all about what the rules state and how your gm rules on it. Outside of pfs, there is the house rule system many gms come up with.
The gm posted to get opinions to help him make a ruling or to ask others to side with his stance or yours. Everyone who has posted regarding rules on this, are for the most part stating the same thing. Which you seem unable to accept.
You misunderstand, I actually didnt have much of an issue with it but I will argue a point when it needs to be argued. It seems that generally most people dont deal with it, see it as silly (Im not going to go too far into how that is funny) or side with the rule as stated (Which is.. you have to be unconscious.)
As it currently is, my character will be aware of these things and as such act accordingly. meaning Potions for lack of a better alternative are self use only as any other variation is not viable.
If people die from such a thing then the next characters simply need to be stronger is all. And have the options to make such a case a non-issue.
The rules do not cover giving a potion to a conscious potion. I think it is reasonable to use the rules for an unconscious person, but I am not the GM.
As for the attack of opportunity there should only be one if the person administering the potion is beside the wolf. <--That is the rules, not just some opinion I am giving.
Also if that is a winter wolf, and not a normal wolf the GM should not be throwing at a 1st level party, but then again you do have 19 hit points at level 1, and I am assuming some house rule is in play for that to happen. That means there could be other rules I dont know about that the GM had added.
The rules do not cover giving a potion to a conscious potion. I think it is reasonable to use the rules for an unconscious person, but I am not the GM.
As for the attack of opportunity there should only be one if the person administering the potion is beside the wolf. <--That is the rules, not just some opinion I am giving.
Also if that is a winter wolf, and not a normal wolf the GM should not be throwing at a 1st level party, but then again you do have 19 hit points at level 1, and I am assuming some house rule is in play for that to happen. That means there could be other rules I dont know about that the GM had added.
He took 19 points of damage, has 17.
10 + 4 (CON) + 3 (Toughness) is certainly possible.
True.
Someone mentioned psionics so I assumed he was a caster, but psionics does have d10 classes. My mind just went to psions. Now I see that he is an Aegis. :)
You need one of these: Beer Potion Helmet
Flat-footed is one of the most misunderstood elements of the game. Being flat-footed does NOT remove your ability to act. Being unable to act results in being flat-footed.
Note: there are other reasons you can be flat-footed but they also do not remove your ability to act.
If you are unable to act and you just got smacked into the negatives but you are still conscious (due to die-hard) then it sucks to be you. You will probably be dead if the wolf acts before you next round.
If you act before the wolf I hope you have a spring-loaded wrist sheath so you can pop that potion as a swift action and then drink it as a standard. I also hope you have the ability to 5' step away from the wolf otherwise it's AoO may just kill you outright.
In any case, in order to give a person a potion it is a 2 action sequence (move then full-round action) and the person must be unconscious.
This is the rules forum. If you want to argue house rules there is another forum for that.
BTW, a lack of magic in the game really messes with the game's balance. The GM should reduce the CR of encounters accordingly.
Edit: You can start a full round action by using a standard action and complete it with a move action on the next turn.
Nope:
Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
/cevah
Hoy crap that a lot to catch up on...
Wands dont to my knowledge exist.
Dorje's do, which is basically the same thing. But, psionic healing isn't as effective as magical healing, so its still a hindrance.
At first none of the party had any knowledge to what this was until the GM fixed himself.I never made a mistake to fix. If no one asks which knowledge check it is, it's not my job to remind you to make the check. I actually fixed your mistake.
Second. Do me a favor. Fill a small glass with water. Hand it to a friend. Have him stand 5 feet away from you. Then, take a stick and swing it around as if you're fighting off a wolf or whatever. Now have him feed you the glass of water. Now you should realize how preposterous this all is.
Thats pretty much exactly what I said
Edit: Also, magic doesn't exist what? Sorry, but you're playing a game that's so far outside the normal pathfinder ruleset we can't help you. And if an average attack from a foe will drop anyone in the party, then your GM's doing something wrong. Much like how he's doing something wrong if there's no magic.
We replaced magic with psionics. The plan is to drop someone below 0 every round without killing anyone until the wolf is dead. So far it's going exactly as planned. I'm doing nothing wrong
the opposite would be me standing there as the wolf is biting at my leg because I am in alot of Armor, while it is distracted NOMMING on me my friend tilts my head to the side and gives me a drink. Your suspending belief for actions in combat for Mundanes but not for magic. The same could be said of someone using a cure spell. Since you are moving around dodging and whatnot is it suddenly a case where the caster has to roll a touch attack to heal you with the spell because your moving too much? Another caveat is.. Im not even an adventurer. And a bottle would be closer to a potion than a glass to be fair.
Your missing the point. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying it takes time for both of you to do rather than just one of you. You keep comparing it to magic when they are clearly different. Magic is kind of like a person turning on a radio. Only the person turning on the radio has to turn it on. The other guy can listen while doing something else, requiring nothing from him to benefit by hearing the music. The mundane potion version would be like them playing the song live, where each have to take time to play an instrument. Your claims that "it can be done with magic so it can be done with a potion" are ridiculous.
Also if that is a winter wolf, and not a normal wolf the GM should not be throwing at a 1st level party, but then again you do have 19 hit points at level 1, and I am assuming some house rule is in play for that to happen. That means there could be other rules I dont know about that the GM had added.
No house rules, I just had faith that they could take a high CR. I fully understood it would take them within an inch of their lives, but I thought that would be a fun way to start a game. As I stated above, I was hoping to drop someone without killing anyone every round until they won. So far, so good. Also, the wolf may not necessarily fight to the death. I did kinda cringe when I realized no one but the wolf would get to act in the surprise round though.
If by DM fiat you're going to have a wolf attack each of them, drop them, then do nothing with them, well, what's the difference between doing that with a wolf and doing that with a level 20 wizard casting extended Color Spray? Unless you honestly think that with a combined total of 10 to 12 rounds some level 1s can burn through 59 HP without being fully optimized.
If by DM fiat you're going to have a wolf attack each of them, drop them, then do nothing with them, well, what's the difference between doing that with a wolf and doing that with a level 20 wizard casting extended Color Spray? Unless you honestly think that with a combined total of 10 to 12 rounds some level 1s can burn through 59 HP without being fully optimized.
You misunderstand the plan. I foresee them doing enough damage per round that the wolf dies or flees before they have all dropped, though a couple of them will fall below 0 in the process. The wolf took 15 damage on the only attack it suffered so far. Seems to be going according to plan so far
If by DM fiat you're going to have a wolf attack each of them, drop them, then do nothing with them, well, what's the difference between doing that with a wolf and doing that with a level 20 wizard casting extended Color Spray? Unless you honestly think that with a combined total of 10 to 12 rounds some level 1s can burn through 59 HP without being fully optimized.You misunderstand the plan. I foresee them doing enough damage per round that the wolf dies or flees before they have all dropped, though a couple of them will fall below 0 in the process. The wolf took 15 damage on the only attack it suffered so far. Seems to be going according to plan so far
Right, at level 1. Party makeup assumes classic fighter-rogue-cleric-wizard.
Wizard hurls magic missile at it, cleric spends his turn trying to heal the fighter, rogue tries to hit it, fighter hits it, and fighter nearly drops. Team does ~20 damage.
Wolf goes, drops fighter with the second attack, he doesn't get to act this turn. Rogue swings, hits. Wizard magic missiles again, cleric makes sure the fighter is stabilized or maybe even tries to bring him back up. Team does ~10 damage.
Wolf goes, drops rogue in one hit. Wizard starts to flee, Cleric either got the fighter up and tries healing them again, channels - probably without selective - or flees. Assuming he channels, both the fighter and the rogue are positive and prone, but the wolf heals 5.
Wolf goes, after the cleric this time because he's still standing. Call it a miss. A lucky break. Rogue acts first in the party. He stands up... and eats an AOO, going down again. Fighter stands up, swings, hits for ~15 damage with a solid blow. Wolf has a little under 20 HP left. Cleric channels again to make sure the rogue doesn't bleed out, healing the wolf as well but not as much - only 2. Fighter heals this too, not that it matters.
Wolf goes, after either the cleric or the fighter. Either way, the one hit drops. Ideal situation here for the party is actually the cleric - the fighter has a shot at killing the wolf if the wolf misses the next attack. The cleric doesn't. Either way, you're ending up with 1 party member standing on the field if you're lucky.
Sure, an optimized party could do better. But an optimized party is not what you have. The only time you throw a ECL+5 encounter at a party is if it's mundane and the party is mythic, or maybe optimized and a bit higher level as a boss fight - but that only if you're playing a brutal, gritty game.
You misunderstand the plan. I foresee them doing enough damage per round that the wolf dies or flees before they have all dropped, though a couple of them will fall below 0 in the process. The wolf took 15 damage on the only attack it suffered so far. Seems to be going according to plan so far
That's a big gamble. You've got 4 players, and you're assuming, essentially, that every character both hits and deals roughly 20 damage in 3 more rounds.
Your party includes a Cryptic, a Soulknife, and a Psion. The Aegis is out of commission.
So your Soulknife needs to hit and do 20 damage before he's dropped.
The Cryptic (a secondary combatant at best) needs to do likewise.
The Psion may not even be able to do half that. Even if he's a Kineticist he's doing around 1d6+1, if he hits.
So best case scenario, your Winter Wolf drops the Psion, then the Cryptic, then the Soulknife, and the Cryptic and the Soulknife both hit and deal enough damage to drop it.
They each have maybe a 50/50 shot at best of hitting.
The odds are against your plan working pretty heavily.
The only time I see this work is if you have a much larger than normal party (one game I'm playing in we're fighting a Gargoyle and 4 Gremlins at level 1, but we have like 12 people and Cold Iron weapons).
@Bronnwynn All of my normal parties would be doing way better damage than that, but we are indeed more optimized. The setting we are playing his game in is no different. I guess I could have warned them better, but it just seemed normal to me. However, I talk quite a bit about how the lowlands were so dangerous that it was unable to hold settlements, or even travel. I went into detail about the mountain top settlements and how they were secluded from each other for hundreds of years until the recent advent of airships, because travel was so dangerous.
@Rynjin They don't need to each hit and do 20 damage per round, they need to collectively hit and do a total of 20 damage per round, that's a big difference. The first increment was nearly achieved on the first attack. Not to mention, that would kill the wolf in 3 rounds, but it has an Int of 9 and may very well flee before then.
Also, the Aegis isn't put of commission yet.
He is if he wants to live. Another 17 damage will put him down for good.
Living is for Noobs, If I take a hit then it wasted its attack on me. Avg damage wouldnt kill me but I'd be one away from death.
I never made a mistake to fix. If no one asks which knowledge check it is, it's not my job to remind you to make the check. I actually fixed your mistake.
Just a note you did ask for a knowledge check.. nature to be exact.. Which none of us had.. you then found out said check was wrong so asked for another.. Psionics/arcana.. that was a mistake on your part.. not ours..
Jin is not a slouch with damage so its fine I expect him to survive maye two more rounds and then Kill over but hit at least once. I has Diehard.. I will stand until I die..
Living is for Noobs, If I take a hit then it wasted its attack on me. Avg damage wouldnt kill me but I'd be one away from death.
Meaning if it rolls one higher than average, it kills ya. Or uses its Breath Weapon, in which case multiple of you guys are in trouble. Even if it rolls average, you're out of commission. If you act fully on your turn, you die.
TBH if this guy was played intelligently you'd have no chance, but at least Jimi was nice enough to have it play the "Run up and whack ya" game on the first round instead of Breathing on 2-3 of you and mopping up the survivors. The Psion and Cryptic are within auto-unconscious or dead on average damage range from that. The Psion could actually very well be screwed even if he passes the save on that.
Just a note you did ask for a knowledge check.. nature to be exact.. Which none of us had.. you then found out said check was wrong so asked for another.. Psionics/arcana.. that was a mistake on your part.. not ours..
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. My bad. Like you said though, at least I caught it and gave you guys the option to retcon:)
Aaaaaand one well placed crit, the wolf dropped to 2hp, and took off running. All turned out as I said it would. I'm sure plenty of you will chalk it up to luck, but results speak for themselves. It went down as I said it would go down. The crit was not necessary, but it did speed it up.
I will chalk it up to luck. Because that's what crits are.
"Results speak for themselves" is a silly statement. This is the equivalent of having never played poker but pulling a Full House on the river by sheer chance against experienced players.
The result of that is not "Dude, I am so good at poker".
Crits aren't luck, they are a chance that can be calculated. The term I used might be silly if used by a fool, but it's hard to call a guy a fool when he just predicted the exact outcome of something. Perhaps I know exactly what I'm talking about, and it's just easier for you to tell yourself I got lucky than admit when you were wrong.
And if the truth of this weren't apparent enough, I'd like to point out, again, that the crit wasn't necessary, it just sped things up. If he had not scored the crit, the next guy to hit would have caused the wolf to flee.