Hi all,
I am a fairly inexperienced GM although I have been playing pathfinder for some time now. I have a player in my campaign (Council of Thieves AP) that is currently playing a dex/stealth based Paladin of Desna but wants to take levels of Ninja also. I don't have a copy of Ultimate Combat, so I might not be too familiar with this class but from what I have read it feels like the Ninja is a rogue, assassin (a prestige class no less) and monk combined without any restrictions on alignment.
I kind of feel like he is trying to take advantage of my limited knowledge and design the most mechanically powerful stealth based character imaginable without real regard for the character background. Can anyone see this combination of paladin and ninja working? Am I missing some obvious disadvantage of the Ninja class that balances it against all the advantages the class grants? I personally can't think of an example of a lawful good ninja?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts and advice!
The ninja is an alternative rogue class. It is not all that powerful, except compared to the rogue. Considering the rogue is the weakest class in the game that is not a problem. Many people look at the rogue as being practically a NPC class. If all he wanted was power he would probably be better off staying strait paladin.
I would simply ask him "where did your paladin get the knowledge of the secrets of the Ninjas from? who trained you? when?" :)
I would only allow this cross-class if it reflects the characters behaviour/roleplay. (Lore and Rulewise nothing speaks against this combo)
Ninja class: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classes/ninja.html
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Haha, thats a great joke, ninjas being too powerful. HAHA!
The ninja isn't even that great at bein stealthy. The only real advanatge it gets is invisbility and greater invisibility. Greater invisbility doesn't even come on-line till 10th level, and by then creatures will have access to see invisbility or true sight which negate that advantage.
Then there is the issue of are ninja and paladin compatable together? This is a difficult question. Ultimately only you can decide if you think it's appropriate. Personally, the stealthy sneak up and assassinate approach of most ninja would violate the paladin code of conduct. Specifically the part about "act(ing) with honor". Now, this could vary wildly with everyone's indvidiual opinion. But mine is that it doesn't mesh.
Of course, he can also just think of the class as an access pass to certain powers and not even worry about the baggage. That baggage being innate assumptions of roleplaying for certain character classes. You can mechanically be a ninja, but play it any number of ways. Being able to turn invisible and having access to sneak attack isn't really a problem on its own.
Personally, I would say don't worry about this combination too much.
Though to be honest it sounds like he's probably just dipping paladin for charisma to saves and then going to be going full ninja for charisma synergy. If he starts playing an assassin remove the paladin powers and move along.
. . .Can anyone see this combination of paladin and ninja working?. . . .
No, but not for the reasons you are assuming.
Desna is an ancient goddess of freedom and luck [CG], and is credited with the creation of the heavens. . . As [Curchanus] died he gifted Desna with the domain of travel; she has traveled the planes and worlds since, opposing both oppression and Lamashtu wherever she encounters them, and spreading her word while making an effort to experience new wonders when she can. . . .
I don't know if one can balance one's service to a divine being who urges freedom over rules when the rules for a paladin are very important.
. . . A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. . . .
Mechanically, it's fine.
First of all: Ninjas are an alternate class from UC - you can flat out ban the three alternate classes by word of GM (Samurai, Ninja, Antipaladin).
Second: Yes, Ninjas ARE powerful, but they are pretty much dependant on two principles: Stealth and Flanking. both are stuff a melee-rogue is good in too, and they go this way by neglecting the 'I disable traps' part of a rogue. They have ways to go around that (light step etc), but then they infiltrate alone. They are, in themselves, a Class devoted to getting a nice Coup de Grace/killing blow.
Three: Obvious disadvantages... Actually there are a few! check it - they don't get trap sense, so traps might not strike them, but also their allies (if they don't activate it themselves...), Then they are miserably at multiclassing unless you take monk levels.
Four: You are the GM. You may deny any character for any reason, and he even gives you one: No BG. Demand a good BG that explains why he is there.
Five: Lawful Good Ninja... Do you know Hattori Hanzo, the counter-spy of Tokugawa Ieyatsu? He is imho Lawful-Neutral; Eventhough his rival and killer is also a (imho) Lawful-Neutral Ninja, they did serve opposing Daimyos. Ishikawa Goemon, thief and peasent hero, is more Chaothic Good.
Six: If it doesn't fit the campaign, ban it.
The Ninja is better than the Rogue.
So that makes it at least not the worst class in the game. I'd put it at 3rd or 4th worst, ahead of the Rogue, Core Monk (no archetypes, no new Feats, Final Destination), and maybe the Fighter since it at least has something going for it besides "I hit it. Hard. I guess.". In that order.
So, no, not overpowered in the least.
As long as you're not that guy who goes "Paladins can't be sneaky! That's lying to your opponent about where you are! FAAAAAAALLLLL!!!!!!11one1!!!!eleven!!" I see nothing wrong with it. Just make sure he remembers that just because he gets Poison Use doesn't mean he can use poisons now. It's still against the Code. =)
I kind of feel like he is trying to take advantage of my limited knowledge and design the most mechanically powerful stealth based character imaginable without real regard for the character background. Can anyone see this combination of paladin and ninja working? Am I missing some obvious disadvantage of the Ninja class that balances it against all the advantages the class grants? [Emphasis mine]
Yes, you are. The obvious disadvantages are that he's not getting additional Paladin levels. Let's say you have a player who goes Paladin 10, and a second who goes Paladin 5 / Ninja 5. The second player:
Gains
30 skill points and some class skills.
Sneak attack +3d6
Poison use (useless b/c of Paladin levels)
Ki pool 2 + CHA modifier per day
1 Ninja Trick
Uncanny Dodge
+1 on disguise and opposed stealth checks, minimally harder (+1 DC) to track with survival
Loses
BAB (+10/+5 --> +8/+3)
~5 HP
5 levels of Favored class bonus (normally)
2 Mercies
2 uses of Smite evil per day (!)
-5 damage per hit when Smiting
3d6 healing per Lay on Hands ((2 + CHA mod)*3d6 healing)
3 uses of Lay on Hands per day (an additional 15d6 healing)
1 use per day of their Divine Bond
+1 enhancement on their Divine Bond (if a weapon)
Aura of resolve (immune to Charm spells, bonus for other party members)
Level 2 & 3 Paladin spells and caster level
I would argue that in many campaigns, the straight Paladin is a mechanically stronger character (I have not played Council of Thieves, so YMMV). As long as you understand and properly enforce Stealth rules, I feel like you're fine.
If your worry is about power then you should be happy he is going with the ninja. From a flavor point of view and RAI there is nothing stopping a paladin ninja from existing. He might have been better off just going inquisitor if he wants to be a sneaky divine person.
Hi all,
I am a fairly inexperienced GM although I have been playing pathfinder for some time now. I have a player in my campaign (Council of Thieves AP) that is currently playing a dex/stealth based Paladin of Desna but wants to take levels of Ninja also. I don't have a copy of Ultimate Combat, so I might not be too familiar with this class but from what I have read it feels like the Ninja is a rogue, assassin (a prestige class no less) and monk combined without any restrictions on alignment.
I kind of feel like he is trying to take advantage of my limited knowledge and design the most mechanically powerful stealth based character imaginable without real regard for the character background. Can anyone see this combination of paladin and ninja working? Am I missing some obvious disadvantage of the Ninja class that balances it against all the advantages the class grants? I personally can't think of an example of a lawful good ninja?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts and advice!
As mentioned, the ninja while better then say a straight rogue, is far and away not the most powerful class in the game. Also as mentioned, you can find the details for free online in the prd right here on this site.
That said, it is among the best at being stealth based. Vanishing trick is pretty close to as good at it gets for hiding against anything that cant see invisible creatures or has blind sense/tremor sense or other similar abilities. On the other hand, its a short duration, and it costs a relatively limited resource.
As for advantages/disadvantages. First consider what he is giving up not progressing the paladin. Remember pathfinder tends to favor single classes characters since everyone just about has abilities that scale with level.
1. Loss of BAB, the character to hit will be lower then that of a full paladin
2. Lay on hands and mercies stop scaling, that swift action heal stops getting better, and after a few levels will end up being a minor boon, instead of a big help when stuck in the thick of things.
3. Fewer Smite evils. A paladin truly shines when he is smiting evil. Every few levels they get another one, getting to do that an extra time per day. Unless you arent puting your party against several encounters per day (which you should be) this is a huge loss for a character.
4. New defensive immunities and bonuses. Those auras are pretty friggan sweet after a while, while everyone else is making saves the paladin openly mocks debuffs and save or lose spells/effects. He's immune to half of them, gets bonuses against the other half, and has a massive boost to his saves in general. Taking levels in ninja misses out on that.
Those are some really big losses for a few dice of sneak attack damage, and some cool ki powers and extra skill points. While a multiclass paladin/ninja is a cool idea, its hardly overpowered. Particularly not when you compare it to a straight paladin. Its certainly more flexible, but not more powerful.
In terms of 'background', if he was already playing a stealth/dex based paladin, I dont see how adding 'mystical' powers (ki) to his magical powers (divine magic/effects) makes any difference thematically. If it was cool to fight using stealth as a straight paladin, simply being better at it by taking ninja doesn't hurt the theme. The only thing that is potentially an issue is the specific paladin's code and attacking unaware opponents (from stealth), but if he was already stealth based, obviously that isn't an issue. Things like sneak attack are not thematically incompatable with a paladin. The name is sort of a mislabel. You aren't being sneaky, you are attacking a vulnerable point in the enemy's defence. The paladin is already trying to kill their opponent. Doing it by nicking an artery isnt any kind of violation. And it's not like paladin's cant flank, or take other tactical advantages in combat. They can. So there isnt anything thematically problematic with the ninja.
If your worry is about power then you should be happy he is going with the ninja. From a flavor point of view and RAI there is nothing stopping a paladin ninja from existing. He might have been better off just going inquisitor if he wants to be a sneaky divine person.
I also was wondering why the guy didn't go sneaky inquisitor if he wanted that flavor from a PC.
OP: the ninja class is not OP. It just works better than the rogue.
If your worry is about power then you should be happy he is going with the ninja. From a flavor point of view and RAI there is nothing stopping a paladin ninja from existing. He might have been better off just going inquisitor if he wants to be a sneaky divine person.I also was wondering why the guy didn't go sneaky inquisitor if he wanted that flavor from a PC.
OP: the ninja class is not OP. It just works better than the rogue.
Yea it sounds like the character would have been better servered to just be an inquisitor, but if they are already a paladin, not really a big issue taking ninja levels thematically. At least not any more then just being a ninja or a paladin in whatever setting, or whatever the character is.
|
Honestly, the character is already illegal. Desna is CG and doesn't have Paladins. On top of that, to gain powers from a deity you must be within on step on the alingment axis.
You can have a paladin of a LG (Iomedae, Torag) god, a NG god(Sarenrae, Sheyln), or a LN god(Irori, Abadar), but not a CG one.
From personal experience, I once made a Paladin Ninja unarmed character. I made some use of the Knockout Artist and Sap Master feats, a Temple Sword to cause flat-footedness, and then punched them for okay nonlethal damage. The character was, in my opinion, mechanically weak.
Lore-wise, he was a Paladin who wished to be merciful and use stealth to avoid fights when unnecessary. He was the man who believed taking out a bandit leader (and taking him to prison) would cause any unharmed bandits to reconsider their lifestyle.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Paladin simply cannot worship evil gods.
Nothing "illegal" here.
Also, the name of a class, is just that.
A name.
Your Ninja can be as righteous and good, as they want to be.
A Paladin can be sneaky if he wants.
Oh, and I will admit, I openly laughed at "Ninja, overpowered?" title.
I wanted so bad, for there to be a "Wizards, underpowered?" thread right next to it.
|
|
Honestly, the character is already illegal. Desna is CG and doesn't have Paladins. On top of that, to gain powers from a deity you must be within on step on the alingment axis.
There actually isn't any text that paladins must be within one step of their deities alignment in the rules. That's only for clerics. And Desna has paladins if the GM says she does. So this isn't illegal, only unusual.
I would simply ask him "where did your paladin get the knowledge of the secrets of the Ninjas from? who trained you? when?"
That's fluff, and thus mutable. You can be a ninja(class) without being a ninja(concept). Irrelevant.
No they are fine and the combo of ninja/paladin is not as great at the straigth paladin. IMOP.
1. Ninja is not that strong.
2. Ninja and Paladin are compatible.