Do items such as Jolly Roger or Besmara's Bones take up a space in a character's card deck between games or do they "live" with the ship? Suspect that it is the former but hoping it is the later... ;) ha, ha.
They have to be part of a character's deck. They are items, which by default are kept in your deck. And I see nothing to change that.
I've played it as it applies to anyone on the ship.
I played it the same way as Hawk. On another note, I don't have the rules in front of me. Is there anything that prevents stacking Jolly Roger's or similar cards that are displayed next to your ship?
Does Jolly Roger "remember" who played the card and only give the 1d6 bonus to that player? Or does it apply to any player who is on the ship?
Cards have no memory. because of that I always read it as applying to anyone on the ship
I played it the same way as Hawk. On another note, I don't have the rules in front of me. Is there anything that prevents stacking Jolly Roger's or similar cards that are displayed next to your ship?
Not that I've seen. I've played them as if they stack.
I think Jolly Roger doesn't get discarded at the end of your turn. I don't have the cards so I can't be 100% sure. But, if I'm remembering correctly, it stays there the rest of the game.
Displayed cards don't count as cards in your hand.
Display: Place it faceup in front of your character, unless stated otherwise; the card’s powers function until it’s discarded. When a character displays a card, it is not part of that character’s hand, deck, or discard pile, but it still belongs to that character.
There is no language on the Jolly Roger that indicates it gets discarded at the end of the the turn. WHen you play it, the card sticks around unless you change ships.
CEO
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We are playing this card in our home game and Vic has ruled slightly differently than the consensus here. What we are playing is:
a) Once played, the card sticks around until the end of the turn
b) The effect of the Jolly Roger only applies to the character who plays it
My reading of the card was very similar to everyone else's in that I thought it would apply to to anybody who is on the ship, but Vic says that I am reading it wrong. :) Not the first time.
I will try to get him to get on here to clarify, but they are eyeballs deep in getting Wrath out the door today, so it may be a day or two.
-Lisa
Hmmmmm. Yeah we were playing Jolly Rogers as if it applied to the entire party. If its only for one person then the Flag loses a lot of its luster and will likely be discarded. Thematically, a ship's flag should inspire the entire group of pirates, not just the person that hoists it!
I'm surprised that's the case. Since that, and Besmara's bones, don't say anything about how you returned the cards to your hand (Besmara's Bones has a little more text about banishing/burying than Jolly Roger), we assumed these were like permanent buffs to your ship that stuck around for the entire scenario. If it's only for a turn, and particularly if it's only for one character, I don't really see it as worth the space in the deck, especially considering if you want to keep it around for the scenarios where it's pretty useful, you have to drag it through all the "Your Ship Is Anchored At..." scenarios where it's borderline useless.
We are playing this card in our home game and Vic has ruled slightly differently than the consensus here. What we are playing is:
a) Once played, the card sticks around until the end of the turn
b) The effect of the Jolly Roger only applies to the character who plays itMy reading of the card was very similar to everyone else's in that I thought it would apply to to anybody who is on the ship, but Vic says that I am reading it wrong. :) Not the first time.
I will try to get him to get on here to clarify, but they are eyeballs deep in getting Wrath out the door today, so it may be a day or two.
-Lisa
Isn't it great that Paizo is the kind of company where this kind of post from the CEO can not only happen, but doesn't seem surprising when it does? I mean, Lisa, as CEO, basically just said, "Not only am I CEO of this company, but I play this game you guys love too. I'll have to see if I can get the authoritative voice of the game to come in here and comment on how we've played this. But he might not be able to do that right away because he is busy working on that next awesome thing you will all want."
If we are talking about it this much, is anyone able to post the wording on the card?
Wait and it only sticks around till the end of the turn? .....yeah if that's how it's meant to be played then bye bye Jolly Roger.
I'm surprised that's the case. Since that, and Besmara's bones, don't say anything about how you returned the cards to your hand (Besmara's Bones has a little more text about banishing/burying than Jolly Roger), we assumed these were like permanent buffs to your ship that stuck around for the entire scenario. If it's only for a turn, and particularly if it's only for one character, I don't really see it as worth the space in the deck, especially considering if you want to keep it around for the scenarios where it's pretty useful, you have to drag it through all the "Your Ship Is Anchored At..." scenarios where it's borderline useless.
Completely agree. If its a one shot item with a narrow application for one player it's not going to be worth the card slot.
Well, I can maybe see an argument for the "it only helps the person who displayed it" part. Depending on the wording, if it said "Display this to add X to Y" then the fact that it is by the ship doesn't really do anything to make it apply to anyone besides the person displaying it.
I'm not at home, but I remembered I had a picture of the Jolly Roger in my photostream. The text is "Display this card next to your ship. While displayed, add 1d6 to your checks to defeat ships."
I could see how there might be some confusions for the "your"s. Since "your ship" is universal, but "your checks" might not be. I forget, is there a passage in the rulebook defining the default action with displayed cards? Like "unless otherwise specified, return displayed cards to your hand at the end of your turn." That might explain why Vic extracts so much meaning from such brief text. We were playing under the assumption that cards are displayed until they tell you they're not. Besmara's Bones has a lot of text defining when it goes away. However, it could still be true that it stops being displayed at the end of the turn; all the text about seizing a new ship would be necessary anyway.
I guess we assumed because the display action is next to the ship (which isn't associated with a specific character) the "your" in the text meant any character in the ship flying the jolly roger. Otherwise why not just display the Jolly Roger in front of you like the other cards?
For theme, maybe?
If this gets errata'd I'll be bummed. :( Not currently using the Jolly Roger in my deck, but I was for a while, and I got super psyched on seeing Besmara's Bones for the first time and immediately set about imagining this whole array of equippable buffs to power up your ship. I can kind of understand the reasoning for making it weaker, since a permanent +d6 to all ship checks for a whole scenario is very, very strong in scenarios where there are ships to kill, but I felt it was mostly balanced by forcing you to play one card down in your deck, and forcing you to cart it around in scenarios where it was useless.
I hope it does work for the whole party and last the whole scenario. I don't even want it if it's that good, never mind if it's worse.
I just don't fight ships enough to justify the inclusion in my deck...
There is nothing in the S&S rule-book that gives default actions for displayed cards save for
"Display: Place it faceup in front of your character, unless stated
otherwise; the card’s powers function until it’s discarded. When
a character displays a card, it is not part of that character’s hand,
deck, or discard pile, but it still belongs to that character."
I hope it does work for the whole party and last the whole scenario. I don't even want it if it's that good, never mind if it's worse.
I just don't fight ships enough to justify the inclusion in my deck...
I include the card in both of my current decks. Yes, it's situational, but scenario's like 'Free Captain's Regatta' make the card worth taking. And its a situational card that doesn't clog up your hand, making it a solid choice for decks that you want to continuously cycle.
Needles to say that if Lisa is correct I would drop the card like a bad habit.
If you think about how a pathfinder game works and all the different things you have to keep track of, putting an item from your deck next to your ship (which is by the scenario card)and then remembering on your subsequent turns that you still have that card and can use its powers doesn't make a lot of sense.
If the intention was always to make the jolly roger work only for an individual character and only for one turn then it really shouldn't be put next to the ship.
|
If you think about how a pathfinder game works and all the different things you have to keep track of, putting an item from your deck next to your ship (which is by the scenario card)and then remembering on your subsequent turns that you still have that card and can use its powers doesn't make a lot of sense.
If the intention was always to make the jolly roger work only for an individual character and only for one turn then it really shouldn't be put next to the ship.
I'd have to agree with you on that last point. If it is meant to be only for you and only until the end of your turn, then why display this next to the ship?
If it was meant to be played the way Vic stated to Lisa, then I'd think they'd word the card similar to others that say "Display this card ..." (and not say next to the ship) and "... at the end of your turn, discard it." Lots of other cards do say this.
If you think about how a pathfinder game works and all the different things you have to keep track of, putting an item from your deck next to your ship (which is by the scenario card)and then remembering on your subsequent turns that you still have that card and can use its powers doesn't make a lot of sense.
If the intention was always to make the jolly roger work only for an individual character and only for one turn then it really shouldn't be put next to the ship.
Yeah. That is why I played it as effecting everyone. And I too really hope it works for everyone.
I include the card in both of my current decks. Yes, it's situational, but scenario's like 'Free Captain's Regatta' make the card worth taking. And its a situational card that doesn't clog up your hand, making it a solid choice for decks that you want to continuously cycle.I hope it does work for the whole party and last the whole scenario. I don't even want it if it's that good, never mind if it's worse.
I just don't fight ships enough to justify the inclusion in my deck...
Hmm, that's a good point - it's basically burying itself. I have taken cards that bury themselves just for the sake of removing them from my deck before. I hadn't thought of it like that. I like it much better now... assuming it DOES stay the entire scenario.
Although, now that the Helpful Haversack exists, I don't know that I'll take items that get removed from my deck solely for that purpose anymore.
That's a tacit benefit of it, definitely. And since all the characters I end up loving have strong deck cycling, I naturally lean towards things that let me bury and slim down the deck. Revelation Quill? Emerald Codex? Hell yes. That's why I kept Jolly Roger around as Damiel for a grip of scenarios. One card fewer in your deck is one card closer to another Potion of Flying use. Like Joshua says, I would've loved to have it around for Free Captain's Regatta, which is a super fun scenario where you're encountering ships practically every other turn.
Problem with putting it on Damiel is just that there's so many other items he wants more and can use better, and few ships that we've seen so far are so dangerous that the benefit of the Jolly Roger isn't just better provided by PoHeroism, Besmara's Tricorne, or Aid when it feels necessary. Unless you keep running into Dominators summoned by Pirate Captains, the average ship isn't that big a deal. It's a great card, then, but only if you're not champing at the bit for every slice of Item space you can grab. I think Merisiel would find a lot of use for the Jolly Roger. But Damiel? He's got potions to brew.
As Dave points out, S&S has a ton of amazing items. I find making item choices so much harder than I did in RotR, and "item" has actually become my default card upgrade for characters that don't have clear choices.
|
I thought it was everyone's checks, but can clearly see it as actually meaning the person who played it. It's a display, so most definitely doesn't count against your hand size. Without a trigger to remove it, I definitely don't know that anyone could logically have known you were supposed to discard it at EoT
|
CEO
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We are playing this card in our home game and Vic has ruled slightly differently than the consensus here. What we are playing is:
a) Once played, the card sticks around until the end of the turn
b) The effect of the Jolly Roger only applies to the character who plays itMy reading of the card was very similar to everyone else's in that I thought it would apply to to anybody who is on the ship, but Vic says that I am reading it wrong. :) Not the first time.
I realized that I wrote something slightly wrong above. a) should say that once the card is played, it sticks around until the end of that scenario.
Vic explained again why it only applies to the person who played the card. The card comes from a single player's deck and talks about adding to "your rolls", not any roll. Thus the "your" on the card is the player who played the card.
The confusing thing is that it is displayed with the ship, something everybody owns and becomes the "captain" of when it is their turn. Turns out there was a bit of dissension about whether to display the card next to the ship or next to the player. Looks like it should have been the later to avoid confusion.
-Lisa
|
CEO
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hawk requested the actual wording:
Display this card next to your ship. While displayed, add 1d6 to your checks to defeat ships.We actually interpreted it as only working for the player of the card ("your checks"), but that it stays displayed for the game without counting against your hand.
I believe that you are playing it correctly. Once displayed, it isn't part of your hand. It lasts until the end of the scenario, but it only affects your rolls, nobody else's.
-Lisa
|
CEO
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Isn't it great that Paizo is the kind of company where this kind of post from the CEO can not only happen, but doesn't seem surprising when it does? I mean, Lisa, as CEO, basically just said, "Not only am I CEO of this company, but I play this game you guys love too. I'll have to see if I can get the authoritative voice of the game to come in here and comment on how we've played this. But he might not be able to do that right away because he is busy working on that next awesome thing you will all want."
If we are talking about it this much, is anyone able to post the wording on the card?
Obviously, it isn't so great when the CEO gets the frickin' interpretation wrong and causes all sorts of consternation. :)
-Lisa
|
CEO
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One thing Vic pointed out to me when we were playing which made me keep the Jolly Roger in my hand is that when battling ships, you have to make non-combat checks. If you stink at things like Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, having something that adds to those checks every time you are on a ship and it is displayed is pretty powerful. Sure, you don't run into ships every scenario, but this is a pirate game after all, so ships will be one of the more common enemy types. Considering I wouldn't have a chance without lots of blessings to defeat a ship, the Jolly Roger gives me more of a fighting chance.
Just my two bits.
-Lisa
Isn't it great that Paizo is the kind of company where this kind of post from the CEO can not only happen, but doesn't seem surprising when it does? I mean, Lisa, as CEO, basically just said, "Not only am I CEO of this company, but I play this game you guys love too. I'll have to see if I can get the authoritative voice of the game to come in here and comment on how we've played this. But he might not be able to do that right away because he is busy working on that next awesome thing you will all want."
If we are talking about it this much, is anyone able to post the wording on the card?
Obviously, it isn't so great when the CEO gets the frickin' interpretation wrong and causes all sorts of consternation. :)
-Lisa
Hey, but I heard you made a great rule about how to properly lay out the plunder so we don't get confused about what's plunder/loot and what's not :) that's definitely worth something!
Because I'm a mischievous punk:
Ships aren't an enemy type - they are neither boons nor banes. :3
...
But seriously, though, thanks for your time. :D
Obviously, it isn't so great when the CEO gets the frickin' interpretation wrong and causes all sorts of consternation. :)
-Lisa
Man... or maybe should I say "Woman" (forgive me I'm French and I never got the whole politically correct thing straight)... you are one of the very best boss I know of in this little planet and I've been travelling it a lot. So please no need to have excess humility. I'm just living 7000 miles to far east to send you a resume immediately (that and I still have to throw my fourth teen out of the house).
So my point is : the ONE great thing we owe to Gygax and you guys is creating games where you can play with the rules (rather than by the rules) for pure fun. So as much as I do care about the real intentions of Mike and Vic when they write a card, I'm totally OK if we discover at one point that we played it differently and had a blast anyway.
This said, in the case of the Jolly Roger, I think it should be said somewhere (FAQ) that "displayed" cards can be displayed
- either in front of your character (in which case they get back in the hand before end of turn unless noted otherwise if I'm not mistaken)
- either elsewhere (location, ship, scenario, other character maybe), in which case they stay there until the end of the scenario
- in both case they are not part of your hand
- in both case, even if cards have no memory, the "you" on the card is still the player having played the card
Note that this means you actually lose 1 HP if you display a card "elsewhere" because you'll have one more card to draw
Re-This said, why on earth isn't the Jolly Roger giving its bonus to anyone commanding the ship ? Would have been thematically better. At the end of the day it should be some kind of Support card benefiting everyone (like Runeforge weapons or holy candle).
Just my weekly $0.02 not-this-Mike-can-of-worms.
Happy Holidays guys on the other side of the pond.
Vic explained again why it only applies to the person who played the card. The card comes from a single player's deck and talks about adding to "your rolls", not any roll. Thus the "your" on the card is the player who played the card.
Doesn't this break the "Cards Don't Have Memories" rule? You play the card next to the ship and for the rest of the scenario the card has to remember who played it.
Out of curiosity I'd like to crowd source a question. What other cards are displayed beyond the length of a turn both S&S and RR?
The ones I can immediately think of of are the sphere/orb spells (if you display on someone else's turn for a combat check they last till the end of your turn.)
Oloch can potentially display cards for multiple turns.
Others?
Cards don't have memories, but you do. There are a few things that do often ask you to remember something. Some monsters have a check that, if failed make all your checks more difficult for the rest of your turn, even though that monster will no longer be in front of you. It is something that seems to be avoided, especially if there is nothing to remind you of it, but it isn't prohibited. So they try to avoid it, especially if there is nothing physical to remind you of it. With the Jolly Roger, there is a reminder. Putting it up by the ship does perhaps add a slight hurdle since it doesn't mark who played it. But it isn't a huge hurdle, and plus it looks nice on the ship.
See these posts from Mike for some insight:
Post 1
Post 2
Post 3 (Read the first sentence of #4.)
Rage is a spell that is displayed for more than a turn. Besmara's Bones too. Haunts too if you want to get outside of just boons. In RotR you had the spells from Emerald Codex.
"We try not to create situations where you have to remember that you have a thing to do after another complicated thing happens, unless you can see the card in front of you telling you to do that thing."
The card really needs to be in front of you, not on your ship, if it only works on your individual rolls. Besmara's Bones is entirely different, since it effects everyone in the party.
Guys, you already have to remember whose deck this goes back to at the end. Is it so hard to remember that it's also just you that the card benefits? It's not like you're burying it and having to remember. It's face-up on the table.
Guys, you already have to remember whose deck this goes back to at the end. ...
Fully agree, the issue here is not remembering who played what. And if indeed the intention was that the flag would only benefit the one who played it, it's totally OK.
The issue - if there may be one, but to me it's just an idea really - is that it would somehow have been more "colaborative/fun" if that kind of "environment" card (like Holy Candle) was benefiting the whole party. But that's just me and certainly doesn't request any change on the Jolly Roger... just maybe an idea for a later card.
Isn't it great that Paizo is the kind of company where this kind of post from the CEO can not only happen, but doesn't seem surprising when it does? I mean, Lisa, as CEO, basically just said, "Not only am I CEO of this company, but I play this game you guys love too. I'll have to see if I can get the authoritative voice of the game to come in here and comment on how we've played this. But he might not be able to do that right away because he is busy working on that next awesome thing you will all want."
If we are talking about it this much, is anyone able to post the wording on the card?
Obviously, it isn't so great when the CEO gets the frickin' interpretation wrong and causes all sorts of consternation. :)
-Lisa
Oh, the awesomeness of the situation had very little to do with whether or not you were right. It was more that you like the products your company makes and that you take time to interact with customers on the message boards (in addition to taking time to help ship customers their packages). So, it is still great.